User talk:Procyon

I welcome any and all feedback here, so please post your thoughts. Thank you.

Archived discussions:
 * 2006
 * 2007
 * 2008
 * 2009
 * 2010
 * 2011
 * 2012
 * 2013

Two new featured guides
Hi Proc, can you take a look at http://strategywiki.org/wiki/StrategyWiki:Featured_guides/Current_requests and see if they can be upgraded now? I think they are both worthy. Thanks! -- 20:55, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I know this is silly, but since I haven't done it before, I can do it? I am unsure of whether or not we need more support before making them featured. -- 18:55, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Hey NMH, two things. First and foremost, I have absolute trust in you, so if you want to do it, I fully support you.  Second, I apologize for not responding sooner, this has been a crazy week.  However, I will have some free time over the weekend, when I can scrutinize the guides.  I doubt that I will find anything that would prevent me from supporting the nominations, but if you don't mind waiting, I can take a look and officially add my support, then you can go ahead an promote the guides once I add my sig.  Does that sound good to you?   Pro  cyon  00:15, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Zelda: A Link to the Past
On Zelda: A Link to the Past I can't get past dark world level 5 because the block that I push off can't be pushed over the tile with the button for some reason. Level 5 in Dark World is the lake and ice level. I can only push the block once, but in order to move it over the tile with the button I need to push it three times. What is going on? Qewr4231 (talk) 08:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

simcity societies scenarios walkthroughs
hi procyon, well i started to do some work in the SCSD guides as it isn't a very popular game and the section is REALLY very abandoned, personally, your deletion request really freaked me out, I already read your warnings and recommendations so the article should be clean now, if there is something still lacking, please help fixing it as i am not a native speaker and the wild typo can suddenly appear sometimes, that's all by now i'll go back to expanding the walkthroughs.ErnstCornell (talk) 23:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Bionic Commando (NES) nominated for featured guide
Please add your support/comments to Featured guides/Current requests. Thank you. --
 * Yeah, no problem. I know how busy we all are, so if I don't see a response for a couple of days I figure I might as well go ahead with "being bold" as we say here. I haven't messed with featured guides in a long time so I was at first hesitant, which is why I asked you to do it at first. Just let me know if you notice any big changes that should be discussed. -- 21:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Mega Man
The issue is that it's a four boss run, without any healing. Ice Man is the most powerful of the Robot Masters in terms of attack power, and is deadly on his own. The player will have already fought Bomb Man and Fire Man, and will likely be injured, and they need to have enough health to survive Guts Man afterwards. It doesn't make any sense to suggest a skill-based strategy in that circumstance, since failing to dodge leads to taking a lot of damage. The thing about the Robot Masters' stages is that you don't need to have mastered the strategy for beating them in order to defeat them, you just need to win once to clear their stage. In my case, I took a break from the game for a week or two after beating the Robot Masters since Yellow Devil was a major pain, and then came back and finished it off, so fighting Ice Man was hardly fresh (I was playing on the 3DS, which allows me to suspend play). I get that if you put a lot of time into building the skills to fight Ice Man, you're going to feel that you should use them, but there isn't any reason whatsoever to do that the second time round, since once you've killed him you can flee the scene. --Poppy Appletree (talk) 04:28, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Data loss
Well, looks like I'll have to save everything I do in a text document in case this happens again. I'll just look up a video of the quests to re-do them. And if I can think of anything, I'll let you guys know. --PirateIzzy (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I'll keep that in mind, thanks. Text documents work pretty good for me too though. --PirateIzzy (talk) 02:57, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Pokemon red world map
Excuse me, can I please ask why the complete world map of pokemon red was removed? I thought it would be a great inclusion since players could use it to follow the walkthrough better.


 * Because it was redundant to the content already available on the site. Maps for all locations are available on the pages which reference them.  Why would we ask users to visit a different site and switch back and forth between windows and tabs when all of the information is cleanly presented on one page?  We're not a showcase for other site's features, no matter how cool they may be.  Off-site linking should only occur if the content is out of scope for the site.   Pro  cyon  00:26, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * ah, okay. That makes sense. Well cheers, and thanks for the great job on the walkthrough.

Support
Thanks so much for supporting me on Super Mario Bros. 2 and finishing up Super Mario Advance that helped out a lot :) - RodKimble (talk) 20:20, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Donkey Kong walkthrough adjustments
Talk:Donkey Kong/Walkthrough. A new user brought up some issues. Appears to be version differences related. Please respond, thanks. -- 17:10, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Pokemon crystal
What did you mean by this diff? Crystal shares the same ToC as Gold and Silver... -- 05:20, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, I know they do, I was just trying to exclude the use of the undefined for only Crystal-exclusive information, much like how you're highlighting the instances of Super Mario Advance information. In that particular edit, the sidebox a) wasn't about information exclusive to Crystal and b) wasn't about anything that wasn't mentioned elsewhere (in the items section) and that the player couldn't figure out on their own anyhow.  So I just chopped that one instead of trying to find a new home for the info.   Pro  cyon  23:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The only thing useful from it was "You can pick up Paralyze Heal on the right side of the first floor.", which wasn't mentioned in the items section. Added. Thanks. -- 02:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Picross e series naming conventions
Hi Proc, I need some help. Jupiter corporation lists their games on their site with the following typeset format: PICROSS e#. Standard naming conventions for titles would display it as Picross E#. However, I started a naming trend here like so: Picross e#, which follows sentence case. Which one should we go with? -- 17:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * , and I have always both felt that the best policy was to match whatever was on the title screen and/or box artwork as closely as possible.  So if they user a lowercase e, I believe we should as well.  A redirect with a capital E is always welcome, but if the official name incorporates a lowercase e, than the official guide name should as well.  As for the capitalization of "Picross" that one is a little tougher.  It feels stupid to follow one convention (using the lowercase e) but not another (putting Picross in all caps).  That one is a little bit more of a judgement call.  I guess the two choices are between Picross e and PICROSS e, and personally, I would go with the first, just to make it easier for people, and redirect the second.   Pro  cyon  23:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing. Boy are our standards weird. Sentence case + typesetting/signature formatting. Thanks for the thoughts. -- 00:29, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Accept homebrew/hacked/ripoff/clone image files as part of the original specific-game image category?
Hi Procyon! During my works on swapping GIFs for PNGs for the wiki (and compressing to the max), I came across these two pages: Donkey Kong/Versions and Pac-Man/Versions. What they have in common is that they feature homebrews, hacks, ripoffs, and clones of the original game. In addition to uploading the PNG files, I was adding the appropriate specific-guide name categories into their pages that weren't implemented until around 2008; adding on images that were uploaded in around 2006. I came across one of those particular images and it stopped my tracks.

These images are uploaded and added to the page as part of the game page as a showcase of influences that the game has made through the actions of homebrews, hacks, ripoffs, and clones being created; but do not have a game-specific image category entry (with the exception of homebrew images of Pac-Man for the Atari 2600, but curiously not for the Atari 7800). Therefore, it would be appropriate that they have their own game-specific image category and their own game guide page. However, it doesn't seem that they would have their own game guide pages at this time to this setup of displaying the content info. So logically, if an image is uploaded to that specific game in that page, it must have the game-specific category under the same name (File:DKing_TRS80_Stage1.png for Donkey Kong and Category:Donkey Kong images, not Donkey K i ng and Category:Donkey K i ng images) due to the category description's phrasing "Images pertaining to ."; unless it must be referred to the game itself, and related connections (like perhaps remakes), and not the game guide page in the wiki.

Should those distinctive images be categorized with their own image category? I am saying this because their only category they have is Category:Screenshots, as they don't have a distinctive category for themselves right now. --RAP (talk) 10:11, 5 April 2014 (UTC)


 * If the image is exclusively used on a guide, then it is obviously categorized for that game. E.g. File:DK 2600 Stage2.png should have Category:Donkey Kong images on it (it didn't; I added it). If a version has an exclusive guide here, then its image can be categorized with that (e.g. Category:Rayman: Raving Rabbids (Wii) images). If the image pertains to two guides, then you could put one or both, whatever makes sense. If two or more guides have been combined, we are not going to separate them and thus they do not need their own main page, nor their own image category. Note that an image can be used from a different game, on any guide page, as an example of something, and not require a game-specific category. That category is for the game it came from. E.g. you could compare title screens for similarities or something, but you wouldn't put the same game-specific category on both, that would be illogical. -- 23:07, 12 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input, I appreciate more clarity for me to understand better; however, Procyon already answered this back in my talk page some time ago before you responded.


 * On the sentence about an image that has more than two categories: this means that File:PM_Blinky.png, which has three game-specific categories (that were added over the years since it's existance from the history): Category:Ms. Pac-Man images, Category:Jr. Pac-Man images, and Category:Super Pac-Man images; should only have Category:Pac-Man images instead of having all four categories altogether (which curiously isn't categorized under as the originator that was followed by the sequels)?


 * Does this mean that this image arbitrarily doesn't belong to any other game despite reappearing in the same form, and only categorized by it's originating game? If I visit Category:Ms. Pac-Man images with this in effect, with only one guide-specific category (which would be Category:Pac-Man images), and File:PM_Blinky.png is nowhere to be found; it implies that Blinky doesn't exist in Ms. Pac Man. The same thing will happen if the image doesn't have a game-specific category. --RAP (talk) 23:55, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * , it is not the policy to update the categories of every image whenever they are re-used in a different guide. That being said, it's also not forbidden.  An image must have the category of the first game guide it appeared in.  An image may have any additional guide categories if it's being reused.  Whether you take the time and effort to do that is optional, and it will be appreciated, but it is not required.   Pro  cyon  00:13, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Create Category:Cropped screenshots? and confusion between Category:Icons & Category:Sprites
Hi again Procyon! On my continuing adventures of GIF to PNG converting and image categorization. I came across Miracle Warriors, which you created. What I noticed is that some of the images like overworld locations, NPC interactions, and an image of confronting the final boss; while they have Category:Miracle Warriors images, they don't have a general image category (like Category:Screenshots, Category:Sprites, or Category:Icons). Would this permit a new category like "Category:Cropped screenshots"? It might sound silly, but the word "screenshot" implies that it is an image that is screencaptured without any visual modifications (like cropping, adding markers, or highlighting areas); skimming Category:Screenshots's gallery, most of the images are categorized correctly under there that follows that I said.

On a related note: In Miracle Warriors/Items, after collecting all GIF files to convert, the same situation arises: no general image category. The first thought was to categorize it under Category:Sprites because they are 2D (usually pixelated) image art assets that came directly ripped from the game; then I found out that Category:Icons exist. Seeing both of them, and skimming down a load of gallery images, I got utterly confused on which category to use. While Category:Sprites is more consistent, Category:Icons is a mess. Originating from MarioWiki, a category for icons do not exist, so they get slotted under the sprites category. I'm not entirely sure what to do...it doesn't help that achievement-related images are mixed into the mess. This is a situation that even Candy Crush Saga has a sprite sheet of the candies in original humongous size; does shrinking them down (if we make a guide for the game) mean we have to create Category:Cropped sprites?

I really tend to overthink at these kinds of things when they are in question, because I want to continue doing the work with the amount of clarification I should receive; detail and design-oriented at times, making sure something has a reason. --RAP (talk) 04:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Category:Icons are for icons. If you are unsure, then it doesn't matter, just pick the one you prefer. Sprite makes more sense for items that appear as collectible power-ups. Whereas icon is better for representations shown only in menus. I usually categorize character portraits as Category:Artwork. "Cropped screenshots" is the same thing as Screenshots to us. So no new category. We do not differentiate modified and unmodified screenshots. -- 23:07, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Create more game specific images by content type subcategories?
Hi Proycon, when I joined the wiki long ago, I found out that: I find it interesting that it hasn't been enforced in full force by seeing the very small amount of category links. Does this only apply with a ton of images under a specific content type? My apologies if it overwhelms you, would it be more preferable to move some of the discussions to Staff lounge?--RAP (talk) 08:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Category:Sprites contains subcategories like Category:Castlevania II: Simon's Quest item images {2008 April},
 * Category:Maps's Category:Final Fantasy III maps {2006 July},
 * Category:Screenshots's Category:Castlevania II: Simon's Quest area images {2008 March} (which is supposed to be under Category:Maps);
 * And even Category:SNK vs. Capcom: Card Fighters Clash images, a game-specific guide category, has Category:SNK vs. Capcom: Card Fighters Clash character card images {2010 April}!
 * OK, this was quite a lot to deal with, I'm just going to tackle it all here. @, you are overthinking this to some extent.  Here's the deal (and we may need to have a bigger discussion about this in the Staff Lounge, or the guide may need to be updated.)   may be able to help me with some of the history on the site, but the whole image categorization issue is a bit of a quagmire for the community.  When the site started, we used those generalized catagories; sprites, artwork, icons, etc.  Some people used them exclusively, some people didn't use them at all, and some people used specialized categories like the Castlevania II categories.
 * After a while, the whole thing became a mess, and people didn't agree on what was a sprite vs. an icon, and what was a screenshot vs. a map, etc. At some point (although I can't precisely remember when), the community decided that it would be far more beneficial for the organization of the images if they were organized by game title first, and then if applicable, a secondary category like screenshot.  In fact, the whole sprite category fell out of favor entirely, although efforts to wipe it out have obviously been unsuccessful.  The problem is, 10 or 20 years down the road (if the site still exists hopefully), if you visit Category:Screenshots, you're going to be presented with a list of over 100,000+ screenshots that you can only navigate in alphabetical order, 500 at a time at best.  This is completely impractical.  On the other hand, each guide will only have a fraction of that many images (of any category), so it's much easier to navigate through a guide's image category (assuming you can find it, but any image in a guide should help you find that guide's image category.)
 * Therefore, categorizing each image by its intended guide is presumably far more useful for users to search for similar and related images than the secondary umbrella categories which are ballooning beyond practical navigation. So with respect to your question, should you be applying those secondary categories?  To me personally, it's less important, and somewhat arbitrary which ones you use (e.g. icon vs sprite).  Does that mean you shouldn't apply them if you want to?  No, by all means, please apply them if you'd like to.  But that's why you may find a couple of images, for example from me, with a primary guide image category, but no second category when what I've uploaded doesn't cleanly fall into a label like screenshot or artwork.  Even if I chose one, I'm basically just tossing the image into a ridiculously oversized bin where it's going to drown in a sea of similarly categorized images.  In other words, as long as the game guide image category is there, how much use does the secondary category have?  It doesn't hurt to have it, but it doesn't help tremendously either.  But this entire response should really be regarded as just my $0.02.  Like I said, it may be necessary to raise a larger discussion in the Staff Lounge.  The only thing I would caution against: don't let getting hung up on policy prevent you from being otherwise productive around the site.   Pro  cyon  00:02, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind doing repetitive maintenance for this type of project. I jam a lot of edits of adding the categories in a batch at a time (which also includes uploading images - without Special:UploadWizard, because that thing looks infinitely more complicated than the old Special:MultipleUpload). Having it game-specific categories by content type would be a great idea. But yeah, we should have a big discussion at the Staff Lounge. I'll probably be pre-doing the future procedure that I suggested with the PNG versions of the images, starting with Category:Miracle Warriors maps, Category:Miracle Warriors screenshots, and Category:Miracle Warriors sprites and not have general image categories. --RAP (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * , I am fine with that as long as the over-arching guide image category is still included, as I prefer being able to see all of the images contained by a guide in a single category, regardless of sub-type. I would not want to lose the ability to see that.   Pro  cyon  00:58, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Deal; it would be too much of a hassle to go into yet another subcategory to check the contents. Didn't I recall that DPL can also generate galleries (or links) that contain Category:  and Category: images? It'll probably be too taxing to the servers if they have to retrieve the contents and generate it on the spot. --RAP (talk) 01:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The history of our image categories is unimportant. I don't think we need a "big discussion", but we may want to move this to staff lounge (though I don't think it really matters what page we talk about it on; all staff could just come to this page for this discussion). What we need is to focus our efforts to boil this down. You both did well so far. A written, simplified policy (which we can put at Guide/Image_naming) will help us to move forward and reduce the need for repeat discussions. and  just identified all of the types of categories that exist. We just need to decide what is best.
 * Broad categories like Category:Screenshots are not useful for finding relevant images, but it is good for identifying what type of image it is, whether or not we find that necessary is a point to be considered. I think we agree that these are useless. Everyone can tell what a screenshot is. Whether its a sprite, item, or icon doesn't matter because you will just be segmenting broad categories into other broad categories. I support their removal. If decided, we can have someone run a bot to remove all broad category references so no one has to waste time making thousands of edits.
 * For non-guide images, we have specific categories, like company logos, to keep them from being in the uncategorized files list. No need to change that (it is also something neither of you brought up, but should be remembered).
 * Guide-specific sub-cats are not necessary. This is something I am now firm on after writing about this for the last ~20-30 min. The question is, should we allow them? I think - no. Like broad categories, these are a waste of time. I feel like they are useful for finding similar images, however, I am having trouble proving that to myself. For example, icons within the same game (e.g. Category:MapleStory icon images). This type of sub-categorisation is optional, but the point is, its not exactly arbitrary. These often are created for ongoing maintenance and organizational purposes, but I feel like that is a terrible mistake. It creates a pattern of infinite sub-categorisation. may have some perspective on that. Although, I created the MapleStory icon images cat, as well as Category:Icons itself, I feel like these do not help us at all. Sure, they are grouped, but who cares? Under what circumstances is this beneficial? I can't think of any.
 * Of note, image categories do not seem to order the images in any way. Perhaps by date they were categorized? -- 02:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * In regards to PNG image replacements for GIF files, I feel like RAP is wasting his time and ours (since you are not a sysop, we have to patrol all of your image edits at this time). We have no need of image compression at this time (bandwidth and HDD space is not a problem), which if we did care about, could be done all at once from the back end. The ONLY reason to replace an image is if it is not working. -- 02:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I remain standing firm in benefiting users (and the wiki) visiting pages with less bandwidth use downloading and rendering images as much as possible, like. The replacing of PNGs from GIFs that still functions properly is a bonus of my efforts. I replaced GIFs (broken and non-broken) under the assumption that the use of GIFs are limited permanently due to not displaying thumbnailed GIFs (if it is not fixed at all), which allows me to compress them into converted PNG and upload them because it bypasses the 50+% PNG compression compromise. Even if it is fixed, is there still a use for GIFs besides animation if PNGs are supposed to be used instead? (I heard .webm is blowing up in usage recently, but that's for another discussion.)

Regarding the wiki having no problem with hard drive space; in my talk page, has said that uploading existing compressed PNGs adds space to the wiki database, which would make backup procedures longer (which we later came to a compromise to let me compress existing PNGs 50+%); so I have conflicting info from you two on which one is correct. --RAP (talk) 04:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Database space is minimally used up when uploading a new image, as it's just a new revision of the File: page. Uploading a new version of the file will archive the old version, so no space saving for the server in either case.  It does add more files to archive and backup each time (we're have a few gigs of media files).  I don't think it's a bad thing to have smaller compressed images, but it seems like a lot of manual work. Webm is being used more and more, but I'd rather we leave that to longer videos, not animations that only loop a few frames.
 * As for the thumbnailing issues, I'm still trying to solve that. Mediawiki changed the way they thumbnailed files (especially in the last version) and lots of people have been having similar issues.  The fix they suggested worked for a bit, but significantly impacted the performance of the site. I'm going to be updating to newer versions of the apps on the server soon and I'm hoping that will help.
 * In my view we have two orthogonal sets of image categories. Category:Guide-specific images and everything else in Category:Images.  The former is for keeping images for a specific guide together for organization purposes.  I don't see a problem with having subcategories per game within the guide-specific images, especially with games like MapleStory which have hundreds of images.  The latter are more for tagging, rather than organization. Removing some of the existing image categories has been discussed (and acted upon) a few times.  The last discussion is on the forums. I think the next step we had listed there was to merge all the achievement/trophy/award categories into one. If you want to do a major change to the image categories, that's something that should be discussed on the Staff lounge. -- Prod (talk) 16:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you,, for your input. I think you are right: categories like Category:Company logos are also useless. That type of info can just be written in the description. I guess I will start a thread in staff lounge if no one has yet. A simpler image categorization policy will reduce our nagging of new users and make it easier for them and us to add content.
 * all I'm saying is that the ratio of bandwidth you save compared to how much time you spend is terrible (e.g. 5MB per view for 30 minutes of work?). I mean, who is affected here? Who needs the most help. StrategyWiki has plenty of space and bandwidth to spare (that does not justify not working to compress your work before submitting). AFAIK, Prod and PRocyon don't care if a couple extra MB of data is used up, both in storage and transfer. My issue is that you're spending all this of this time on work that has very little significance. For example compare "value of edits": adding new content vs. optimization. Adding new content can mean the difference between hundreds of viewers and none. Optimization means the difference between paying a little more for hosting or not. You would have to spend days of your life doing optimizations to make a difference, whereas an hour or two of new content can be worth a lot. Also, the existence of a guide can mean getting new editors, as 99% of our viewers come here initially based on games they are currently playing. Also, your project is infinitely large in scope. By the time you finish, new content will come out. Also, if you are adjusting gallery widths and such, there's also the chance that someone won't understand why you did that, and then they will undo the change, or if an image isn't 100% correct, someone will upload a non-compressed version over the top. Are you really going to patrol every image that comes in and replace them all if they aren't as good as the ones you can make? -- 17:11, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * : I guess I'll be doozing off into the relative unknown and work on something more constructive and beneficial for the wiki... like table optimization, hoarding content, or poking StrategyWiki's gaping and cracked holes... I poked at those issues and brought it up directly to Procyon here in this talk page while performing GIF -> PNG in spite of your reasoning... Alright, I'll stop the processing thing since Prod will eventually find the GIF-thumbnailing problem, and fix it, and the GIF-thumbnailed images will be restored back to normal; thus I move on from that. It'll be way more faster than me manually converting all the already broken GIF-thumbnailed images (and non-broken GIFs as a bonus) displayed in such respective game pages into compressed PNG images, and hope visitors will not mind these issues during this duration. --RAP (talk) 07:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your help. Don't take it personally. It's not your responsibility to "save" the wiki. For one, repeat users know to click on a broken thumbnail to view the image, so problem solved (temporarily). Also, if you are working on a guide for something you really like, then go ahead and replace the broken images with working ones. We want you to enjoy this place and find a piece of it that you can find pride in and sort of call your own. I just think it is a waste of your time to think you're going to go through and make 100,000 edits (it would take you like 10 years) on something that may be automatically fixed in the future. -- 15:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


 * User:Notmyhandle, and User:Procyon {responding from my talk page}: I suppose. The only other reason (that I didn't mention earlier, and not in my ideas list) is that there is currently speculation on internet providers enforcing bandwidth caps in a later period of time, which could reduce accessibility to the website; with certain countries already doing such things (which I do not recall the names of the companies, all but perhaps all big ISPs from Canada).


 * It's not necessarily about decreasing load times to both the wiki and user, it's limiting accessibility to the wiki for the user through bandwidth caps. The only way to drastically cut down bandwidth usage is disabling images; it could mean that those not having images being rendered after downloading, we may have to introduce a description of what the image looks like in the page, not just in the image page itself (which requires an extra click from the user and more bandwidth use).


 * In the future, if the majority of our visitors (since I do not have internal access to demographics, I used Alexa for estimates) have bandwidth caps, we may have to appeal to them by recovering the amount of accessibility lost from the implementation of bandwidth caps as much as possible; that includes recurring editors of the wiki.


 * Anyway, off to table presentation optimization, and making sure all four skins fit correctly! Oh, and before you ask, no, I didn't scan all the game pages for them, I already did through here; racking around around 1800 pages in the waitlist. Some of them will not be edited after a critical check (and thus remove them from the list). --RAP (talk) 00:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * For the desktop user, I don't think bandwidth caps are that significant a concern for simple web browsing, which only uses up a few megabytes per session (less if cached). If the user is really worried, they can disable images from their web browser or switch their preferences to only show very small thumbnails.
 * Mobile users would have much more significant issues, where even 1 GB of data is considered a lot. For those I'm working on getting the MobileFrontend extension working properly. It has the option of disabling images very easily. -- Prod (talk) 03:36, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I was attacked
Hi Procyon. My user page was vandalized by an anonymous. It's quite disturbing. Was I the only target or is it more widespread? I'm telling you because you are an administrator. --Abacos (talk) 14:54, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I remembered the recent changes page. I could see that attacks are going on. If the vandal targeted me, it was probably just by chance, or just because I've been active in the last few hours. --Abacos (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Given the randomized text and that it foings around on random pages, it's a (broken) spambot that somehow thinks those pages can be used to advertise. It gets worse on less patrolled wikis. --Sigma 7 (talk) 18:45, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, I was wondering about the reason behind vandalizing the website in this way. Thanks for the explanation. --Abacos (talk) 19:07, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Mario Bros. 2
What is Mario Bros. 2? It is in the Mario series template. A stub would be handy for now. -- 21:47, 5 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah, I saw that and forgot all about it. Thanks for reminding me.  I don't know what the original author's intent behind "Mario Bros. 2" was, since as far as I know, no such game exists.  There is a Japanese FDS title known as "Kaette Kita Mario Bros," which was released for the Europe NES on a cart called "Return of Mario Bros." but all it is, is a more faithful adaptation of the arcade version than the original Mario Bros. release.  Perhaps that's what they meant, but in any event, it should be folded into the main Mario Bros. article, so I'm pretty sure "Mario Bros. 2" can be removed.  Pro  cyon  23:35, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * @, I think I solved the mystery of "Mario Bros. 2". I think it refers to this game.  But it's completely unofficial, and does not belong in the template.  Still, it's pretty cool that someone ported a Game & Watch game that early on.   Pro  cyon  13:57, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you. I created the Mario Bros. II page and removed it from the template. Wikipedia has a series of unofficial Mario games. Maybe we should, too? -- 17:02, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

External content questions
Long ago, I asked some of the questions to when I gathered up a boat load of links for the wiki (and still do), but couldn't answer them due to lack of knowledge, so now I'm going to ask the person who runs the website, you Procyon. I'm asking you such questions because after reading most of the Guide pages, I felt that there were certain angles that weren't tackled, or not clarified in detail: Such answers of clarifications are greatly appreciated for the continuation of contributions of the wiki right now, and in the future; thus it is so that there is no misunderstanding of what external content is allowed or not allowed to be used as the wiki continues to exist. --RAP (talk) 07:35, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If say a website that is dedicated to hosting walkthroughs/cheats/tips went defunct, taken offline, or got rid all of their content to start anew, would their own produced guides be usable? What about user-submitted guides? Such of the website's content cannot be found normally in any way unless it is archived like Archive.org. If a website doesn't want to be archived in the first place, they would've used robots.txt to block their web crawler, or ask the archiving website a request to exclude the website from being archived.
 * Would this apply the same with userpages like Geocities (think game shrines back then!) or anything similar?
 * As someone who watches Let's Play videos (and sometimes multiplayer videos), is it viable to use the content and convert it into writing form? The difference is that one has to interpret how the player in the video goes through the game, which is slower than importing written content and wikify it. While they are made as entertainment for the viewer, they indirectly give info on how the player goes through the game since the player's actions are the property of their videos, not the game company that made the game. An example is YouTube user Northenlion on playing Binding of Issac, which I'm on Episode 10; he has made over 600 episodes consisting of videos clocking 30-50 minutes each since September 2011. Interestingly, I found out that the wiki has embbed videos (without ads, and with ads) back to it's source, as Guide/External_links has informed me.
 * Is the use of the content factored whether or not they make money off creating videos through ads?
 * Would the same be applied in a walkthrough-intended direction?
 * Speaking of Archive.org, because the website is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, would the archived content (not the webpages, but individual files) be usable? I find it fascinating that the website has an archive most of the G4TV videos (web-only content, and the shows themselves) after they have announced they have shut down, with the staff laid off (even though the website G4TV.com is still there, pending it's disappearance in the future). I'm not sure if they had content takedowns because I don't check the individual files section very much (and just focused on browsing archived webpages), but I'm sure they have to do so due to being prominent in the internet. They don't make money off hosting the content due to relying on donations to keep them stable.
 * @, I'll do my best to respond to each of these, but let me know if I overlook anything.
 * Concerning offline walkthroughs/cheats/tips; Cheats do not need to be credited. Tips usually do not unless they are substantial (more than a sentence or two).  Walkthroughs are another matter.  If a walkthrough has a submitted author credit, we are obligated to make a "good faith" effort to get in touch with the author and ask for permission before we thrust someone's work into the public domain.  If you attempt to make contact and receive no reply, then it depends.  If it appears that the author of the walkthrough and the author of the website are the same, the content can be brought to this site, with proper attribution to the original source of the walkthrough.  On the other hand, if the walkthrough is contributed to the site by another user, you may only reproduce the content with that author's permission.  (Circumstances may be different if it can be determined that the author is deceased.)  And yes, all of the above applies to offline sites like GeoCities.  As long as we can show that an effort has been made to contact an author, we are ok.  Of course, if we don't hear from a user and use their content, and then subsequently reply indicating that they do not give us permission, we have to comply with the request, which can make things messy if new content has been applied on top of the old.
 * Converting video content to written walkthrough content is completely permissible, as you are generating new intellectual content. It would be nice if the source video was mentioned in the edit summary, but it's entirely not required.  The argument here is that there's little to distinguish someone else's video play through of a game, with your own personal experience with the game, since two different people playing through the same game are entirely likely to have similar play experiences from one another.  You could watch the video and learn from it, then play through the game yourself repeating the actions you saw, and then go on to describe those actions on this site.  Alternatively, you could skip the middle step of playing the game for yourself, and go straight from watching to describing.  Including the middle step will enrich the quality of what you write, but you still have the right to describe what you saw in someone else's video, as that is your own work.  The advertisement vs. non-advertisement argument is irrelevant in this case.
 * Content from archive.org falls under the exact same rules and stipulations as my response to the first question. Archive.org's state as a non-profit does not change our responsibility to at least attempt to reach out to the original content authors and attempt to gain permission for the rights to reproduce the content, expressly because we are not classified as a non-profit.  The only case where we are not required to seek authorization is when the content is already made available through a compatible license (CC-BY-SA 3.0), in which case it is assumed that the permission has already been sought and obtained, and we are merely obligated to maintain the attribution to the original author of the content.
 * That should just about cover every question you asked, but let me know if I missed anything, or if you still have further questions.  Pro cyon  13:57, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Procyon, here are another round of questions (actually it's just 1 question with 2 sub-questions) worth tackling further: This is pretty much it for a while, until other things hidden from my eyes suddenly pops up of course. --RAP (talk) 06:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Regarding walkthrough-like content in the form of text or writing, would the same be applied under a user comment or post from a forum or blog? It may sound like I'm stretching and dispersing what is something that can be copyrighted, and something that can just be a thought voiced using a social platform, but this is more crystal clear clarification I need to know before I will add more content to the wiki in the future.
 * Is just creating a comment, opinion or thought copyrighted by the user?
 * If someone in a game topic / blog post puts out specific details of the person's thoughts on the game they are playing at the moment, or gives advice to a struggling player; are they indirectly producing their own walkthrough guide?


 * The rule of thumb is that all written content will have to be re-written to avoid plagiarism. All submissions by people (even anonymous) are copyrighted by the website it is located at. That means that some blogs may take ownership. Sites like Facebook claim ownership of all content. Guide sites take credit for all submissions, though some allow users to self-credit and license their content out however they like. This website takes ownership of your submissions, but it is licensed under CC-BY-SA. -- 16:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * @, pretty much hit the nail on the head.  It's not so much about whether a post on a blog or facebook is copyrighted or not.  Chances are, even if they were, you could sneak the content on here, and no one would even notice what you did.  The point is that it's just bad policy to reproduce anyone's work without seeking permission first.  Presumably, if the post is small enough, it shouldn't take much effort to re-word the post, however slightly, and make it your own work.  That happens all the time.  And if it's generic enough (e.g. "The coin is in the third block.") so that anyone could have constructed the same sentence, then there isn't even any need to rewrite it.  But always air on the safe side; When in doubt, get permission or rewrite it.  Obviously, if the licensing is present and compatible, there's no doubt, just grab it and cite the source.   Pro  cyon  19:57, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Items Table
One thing i noticed is how some pages have fancy Item Table (like Pokémon_Gold_and_Silver/Mt._Mortar) while other only have a simple List (like this one in Pokémon_Gold_and_Silver/Whirl_Islands). Can you standardized all pages with the fancy table? Paco (talk) 08:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * @, yeah, I know, I'm just trying to lay all of the content down first, and then I was going to go back and try to standardize all of the formatting, which is a little easier to do, but a little more brain-dead as well. When I get all the way through laying in the content, I plan to go back through the guide and standardize all of the formatting.   Pro  cyon  13:57, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Sentence case main game naming
I have quick question for you. Related to this diff I just made, would you support me if I were to change the naming standard for Lego games from LEGO to Lego? Originally it was Lego, and then I found out that LEGO is typeset, so I really thought that the games should have their company-preferred typesetting. I went and set up categories and changed page/filenames around. At this point, I think that typesetting is really just a marketing trick, and Wikipedia has all of their Lego references lower case, so it would be best to switch back to sentence case. At this point we are in the middle between having all LEGO or all Lego. -- 01:08, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Testing notification system
Hey Prod, did you get a notification about this post?  Pro cyon  14:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I did User:Procyon. -- Prod (talk) 14:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright, cool. For anyone who is reading, it's not necessary to use user to notify someone that you're communicating with them, it's sufficient to just use User:_____ .  Pro  cyon  14:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Just a reminder - SMB2 scans
Since you're pretty active this week, if you get a chance can you grab the Super Mario Bros. 2 manual and scan in the pages for me? They don't have to be 100% straight because I can rotate them myself. Thanks! -- 05:39, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Gotcha, thanks for the reminder. I'll try to tackle it this weekend.  I have been active, but it's been in fits and spurts, whenever I can squeeze stuff in.  Life's been hectic lately.   Pro  cyon  19:14, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Note
I just wanted to say thanks for responding to my Crazy Taxi question. I actually had removed it because I was guessing it was better suited to asking generally on the forums, and I thought I needed to organize my thoughts more before getting feedback. Your response helped a lot. I'm currently planning to put together the game's basic information and outline the Crazy Box after graduation. I was also wondering about videos though. If I wanted to demonstrate something with a video (As an example, what all of the moves in Crazy Taxi look and sound like in game) is there any quality control before adding them, or preferred specification for creating it? I remember reading a bit about videos and appropriation, but I don't remember anything regarding quality or specs.

Thanks Again =) TurboButtons (talk) 19:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks
Haha, I'm not even sure what I want to major in yet. I'm not ready for all those responsibilities on top of that. ._.' Didn't get to do much in the way of celebrating unfortunately, since the house is being painted on the weekends and Easter was a big deal the week before. Though I did get some neat gifts so it's all good (including True Blood Portable, hehe). But really, thank you. That means a lot. This site is very special to me so I doubt I'll ever stop contributing. :) -- Wario Talk 09:33, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Chrono Trigger for Android
Hey Proc, looks like the new guy is just oblivious. I assume this person is trying to edit on a tablet or something. Please do not patrol any CT edits by this person; I am going to buy the Android version and I will revise their submissions, if there are any additional ones. CT is my baby, and I would love a fresh perspective on it. I would hate to squash this guys' efforts early on. -- 02:57, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Layout change of main page - "latest completed guide"
Hey Proc/Prod, I was adjusting the main page to add my new stubs project, and I realized that we only have ~2 games promoted on the front page at any given time (featured guide + Collaboration of the Month). I was thinking that we could replace the projects section, or add a new section, with a section for the "Latest completed guide(s)" since our stage 4 guides are awesome, too. We could even make it two columns wide and show the latest 5, since I know Namcorules pumps out Arcade stage 4's on a daily/weekly basis. What do you guys think? The two downsides to this are 1) we don't know if people even look at our main page and 2) it requires manual updating unless there is a way to pull the titles via DPL. -- 16:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Alien 3
Sorry to have to so many nuance questions, but, Alien 3. The other Alien 3 games (Game Boy) (SNES) (Arcade) already have titled with the superscript stylized 3 in the main game page title. Shouldn't we make it like our no-macron rule where we replace non-English keyboard characters with keyboard friendly ones? -- 06:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't feel terribly strongly about it one way or the other as long as the redirects are in place. Since none of those guides has a tremendous amount of content, I am comfortable changing the names to "Alien 3 (...)" since both Wikipedia and GameFaqs list them that way.  But ultimately, as long as people can find the guides, that's all that's important to me.  Since I can find all four of them in the search box by searching for "Alien 3", that concern is alleviated.  And there's never any need to apologize about questions.   Pro  cyon  01:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Contra arcade enemy names
Hey Proc, when you made the enemy list, did you use a Japanese guide for the names? If so, can you put the japanese names on the page so we have justification of your literal translations? See this diff for the changes I reverted of an anon who tried to edit namse to be more specific to the image or be anglicized. Also, if "Shadow Beast" is the official name, shouldn't there be a similar reference to the NES Stage 3 boss? -- 00:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Ugh, although that anonymous editor is a pain, I do believe his edits are in good faith. The problem is, the romanization/translation of some of those names are fairly subjective.  I will try to track down the source of those things and modify the page if I get the chance.
 * P.S. This is totally off-topic, but I was worried that we might encounter the same problem we had when you created a front-page for a guide that I completed under a different name. As you probably know, I'm working chronologically.  As of this post, I am up to August 12, 1988.  If you ever try to fill a red link for a game that was released prior to that date (in Japan), double check to see if I didn't create the guide under a different name.   Pro  cyon  01:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Ork maps
Thank you! Just a question, what exactly did you do, and how? I don't believe you simply removed the watermaks? because I was told it's forbidden. Keyan (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Ys I: Ancient Ys Vanished naming
Proc, I think Ys I's name is incorrect. 1) Our English-centric naming scheme puts the first/most popular English name ahead of the Japanese one. 2) If the Wikipedia page is correct in saying that the original Japanese title of the game is "イース", then "I: Ancient Ys Vanished" makes no sense as a translation of the title. Either the Japanese title is incomplete, or the transliteration is wrong. I think the transliteration is BS. Here is the box art and here is the Famicom cartridge. -- 01:09, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Hey NMH. So, this whole issue is a mess.  While I normally agree with you about the English name rule, this case feels like an exception because even the English names don't agree.  Based on the usual sources (WP, GF) as well as this Hardcoregaming 101 article, there are a couple of possibilities.
 * Go with the Wikipedia article name, "Ys I: Ancient Ys Vanished", whether it's right or wrong (I'm assuming their choice in name has been vetted).
 * Go with one of the GF titles; "Ys" or "Ys: Ancient Ys Vanished Omen"
 * Go with one of HCG101's suggestions; "Ys: Ancient Ys Vanished Omen" / "Ys: The Vanished Omens" / "Ancient Land of Ys"
 * Mobygames and Giant Bomb have it listed as "Ys: The Vanished Omens", along with somer alternative titles.
 * With all of these choices, it becomes hard to pick the definitive title. However, most of the original Japanese computer releases contain the English words on the title screen: "Ancient Ys Vanished Omen".  When you enter choose Ys I in Ys Chronicles and go to the title screen, it says "Ancient Ys Vanished: Omen".  Soooo... I really don't know.  Going with option 1 is the easiest choice.  I could just as easily choose "Ys 1" but that seems insufficient.  Or "Ys: Ancient Ys Vanished Omen" which is only a slight alteration on what WP has.  Given all of this, what do you think?   Pro  cyon  02:25, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Bear with me here. Naming issues are my favorites =) Ok so some of those arguments are just confusing and some are inaccurate claims. Hardcoregaming 101 did not offer any new information on the naming scheme, but is a great series summary. Let me deliberate:
 * For the series' sake, let's make it simply "Ys". This matches the original Japanese title, it matches the series name, in the series nav it will make the game's title nice, simple, and to the point, and it saves characters when typing sub-pages.
 * Redirect Ys I: Ancient Ys Vanished, Ys I, Ys One, Ys Wan, Isu 1, etc. These are all incorrect names that were never published. The "Ys Wan" name comes from misspelled names such as Ys 1 2 (a.k.a. Wikipedia's Ys I & II article) or written in romaji as Isu Wan Tsu.
 * The American titles, and all known published variants (box art, manual listings, title screens), need to be described on the page's intro. This includes the Ys Chronicles title screen. I'm pretty sure they botched that title screen and it should have been "Ancient Ys: Vanished Omen" which is much more descriptive, though the Chronicles title screen may refer to a plot element I am not aware of (does the floating island of Ys suddenly disappear? Then it would make sense). -- 04:54, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Just some points to consider:
 * Yes, the plot does matter here, Adol learns about the cause of the disappearance of Ys by collecting the six books of Ys in the first chapter, and only gains access to the floating island by defeating Dark Fact at the end of the first chapter. Ancient Ys does, from the point of view of the Esterians, vanish.
 * Why then does the first Ys only get the title, but the second Ys gets the entire subtitle? At least before they mirrored one another (e.g. "Ys I: Ancient Ys Vanished" and "Ys II: Ancient Ys Vanished - The Final Chapter").  It seems like what should go for one should go for the other.
 * And for that matter, the whole series includes subtitles (which is important for distinguishing the two "Ys IV"s). So why then does the first game have no subtitle, thus forcing a disambiguation between the game and then series?
 * One final point, but it's something to be aware of; the Famicom port of this game is considered something of an aberration, and contains many non-canonical aspects. In no way should it's title be considered as official as the early computer releases.
 * I'm not upset, but I kind of wish you'd given me a chance to respond before going through and changing the title.  Pro  cyon  12:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Ys is also the Japanese SMS box art title. "Ys I: Ancient Ys Vanished" is simply unacceptable because it is not official, anywhere. It was made up by people on the internet as far as I'm concerned. I have not found a single piece of evidence showing a number one in the title aside from compilations/remakes related to Ys I & II, which, according to that page indicates significant changes in most versions, so it's not the same game as the 1987/1988 releases. However, we will redirect it to the page. If you want to change the article name, the only ones I would be satisfied with are the NEC PC-8801 titles: Ys: Ancient Ys Vanished, or simply Ancient Ys Vanished (as seen on the manual cover. I prefer "Ys" because it is the series logo that appears on all games, including ones that have no subtitle added to it (Famicom/SMS). Ancient Ys Vanished has ~10 variations (Ancient Land of Ys, Ancient Ys Vanished Omen, The Vanished Omens, etc.). -- 16:33, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * OK, I am basically uncomfortable with just plain "Ys" because it feels like an abbreviation rather than the real title, plus it leads to an avoidable conflict with the series name. All of the other titles are in the format "Ys #: Subtitle" but I am comfortable dropping the # from the 1st game in the series since, as you say, the roman numeral I does not actually appear on any title screen or box art short of the compilation titles.  To keep it consistent with every other game in the series, I would definitely prefer to call it "Ys: Ancient Ys Vanished," which disambiguates it from the series, and also helps it match the Ys II subtitle since they're effectively one contiguous story.  Is that cool with you?   Pro  cyon  17:51, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, this is nitpicky, but I'm leery of using either the Famicom or the SMS versions as a "source of truth" since they diverge the most from the rest of the series, SMS less so than Famicom, but they both incorporate changes to the base game that were abandoned in the remakes. I actually spent the last two weeks playing through the TG-16, Famicom, SMS, PSP, and DS versions of the game (and I started the MSX2 version just for comparison).  Famicom and SMS were definitely outliers.   Pro  cyon  17:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It's fine. Since you'll be the main contributor your opinion is best. I honestly have tried to play a Ys game before and I think I got like 1 minute in and was like "Noooope". Either that or I never played it. So, "Ys: Ancient Ys Vanished" it is. -- 19:08, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Dark Cloud page
Somehow with the edits to the Dark Cloud front page the history got lost. Not that I mind, but I included a link to the Wikipedia page in one of the comments since this was required by CC-by-SA. Is there a template to add this link to the page itself? The alternative would be to rewrite the lead paragraph.--Zuke (talk) 21:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


 * @Zuke: When I accidentally do that, I go back and just make another edit with no changes in the body. In the summary I then put an explanation like "Previous edit content from ". In this case you could say "original content from ", however, I added more info from the wikipedia page and linked to it, so no worries. -- 00:44, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Cool, thanks. --Zuke (talk) 01:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Refugee in the house
Hi Procyon,

as discussed i'm dropping you a line. I'll try to contribute interesting stuff ;)

I see ya here or there!

Companies with multiple names
Hi Proc, I think my feeling on this differs from our standard, but it is a case I keep running into. Some company names change over the years. Obviously they are still the same company. However, the way we categorize things, this provides two options for how our category pages look: I would prefer it if each name had its own category for history's sake. Wikipedia uses Interchannel Inc. as the current company name, but that could change in the future with another acquisition. -- 16:41, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) All games included under a single parent company. E.g. Rareware and Rare under Rare. Alternatively we could have Rareware as its own mini-category.
 * 2) Each company name separated. This offers more accurate category listings for the exact brand name used during a given period of time. I prefer this method because in the last 10 years or so, company acquisitions have created very confusing movements. Also, for history sake, if we preserve a particular brand name and not the owner of the name, then even if future names get dissolved we won't have to delete our current categories. The example I am working with now is Interchannel Holon, which according to Moby Games has had three names:
 * 3) *NEC Interchannel, Ltd. (from Oct, 1995 to Jun 30, 2004)
 * 4) *Interchannel, Ltd. (from Jul 01, 2004 to Jan 04, 2006)
 * 5) *Interchannel-Holon Inc. (from Jan 05, 2006 to Aug 10, 2008)
 * I think I understand what you're proposing, and I think it makes sense. But I think there's two kinds of changes involved; a company name change and a merger.  I think in the case of a company name change, it's best just to have one company category page.  If those changes were just a formality (e.g. "We're no longer called that, we're called this now, but we're still the same company") than I think it would lead to more confusion if there was one category for each name (the info would be identical on every page.)  If it's a merger (like Namco Bandai), then it seems more fitting to have multiple pages.  In the NB example, there would be three: Namco before the merge, Bandai before the merge, and NB after the merge.  There it makes sense because there's some historical perspective on how these three entities may relate to, but are distinct from, one another.  In the case of a name change, how would you really distinguish between them?  They're still all the same core company at the end, the name change is just a legal distinction.  Unless I'm wrong?   Pro  cyon  19:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * My view is that we never go back and change a company's name, all other policy should flow from that. If a company renames, we create a new category, put the old one as a subcategory, and list the details on both pages. -- Prod (talk) 19:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I can definitely support that policy.  Pro  cyon  19:54, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Fighting game unstandardized standards & "How to play"
Hi Proc. The developments of The Last Blade have really aggravated me because I do not know how to proceed. Typical fighting game layouts are unstandardized in relation to StrategyWiki's guide layout standards. What I mean is that there are several areas for minor improvement/standardization:
 * 1) Define when to use "How to play" versus "Getting Started" and "Walkthrough". I see "How to play" on a lot of arcade games, too.
 * 2) *Is "How to play" supposed to be a combination of the two? - That is my assumption. No notes in SW:Guide. Continue nav needs to be updated for this type of case.
 * 3) Movelist templates, e.g. Pocket Fighter/Akuma, should be moved to Pocket Fighter/Akuma moves or under the template namespace.
 * 4) Change layouts like Pocket Fighter/Characters/Akuma to Pocket Fighter/Akuma.
 * 5) *We are against category sub-pages (e.g. using slashes and a word to group like pages together).
 * 6) Since Moves Header is commonly used, we should add a parameter, e.g. named "standardized", that changes the header link path to /Character name instead of /Character/Character name. That way we can proceed with applying the new, simplified layout to new fighting guides like The Last Blade without harming existing guide structures. When all guides are confirmed cleaned up (e.g. not having /Characters/) then we can remove the parameter and adjust the template.

-- 18:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey NMH. I'm definitely responsible for a good portion of the confusion.  I introduced "How to play" before "Getting Started" was voted on as the accepted standard for the site.  I actually voted against that standard, but I accepted the community's decision to go with G.S.  However, many of the guides that predate that vote still have "How to play."  Personally, I would have preferred a choice, but it would have made templates more complicated.  "Getting Started" to me is more for games like RPGs, games that have tutorials that you must complete, or games that require more than the usual "Press Start" to begin, which would guide players through the process of starting their game.  "How to play" on the other hand was like a condensed instruction manual.  Since I lost, I just treat "Getting Started" like the condensed instruction manual instead.  But there definitely still are some "How to play"s lingering out there on the site.  That caused some confusion for NamcoRules who was using my old arcade guides as a template.


 * The whole deal with the /Character/ stuff in fighting games is a bit more complicated, and Pocket Fighter is not a good example because it's the only game in the series. The reason we did it that way has more to do with games like Street Fighter 2, and Street Fighter Alpha, which have multiple revisions of the same characters in the series.  Check out how the SF2 CE moves page is arranged, and compare that to how the Ryu moves section is arranged.  The move lists for individual fighters are in effect templated per game so that they can appear on two pages (the particular game page, and that specific character's page), and there's only one source which needs to be edited for both listings.  I'm not sure how well that clarifies it, and there's probably a better design for this stuff, but there's so much content that follows this pattern that we're more or less locked into it unless we make some painful decisions.  That may or may not have an impact on how you want to proceed with your parameter on Moves Header, because that template is used on a lot of pages.


 * Let me know your thoughts.  Pro  cyon  23:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Now you've got me thinking more about it. I guess more to the point, the reason why we made (for example) a Street Fighter II/Characters/Ryu was because the moves list had to live at Street Fighter II/Ryu, so the character page couldn't live there.  The formula was always to put the moves in Game name/Character name, and put a biography and assembled list of moves throughout the series at Game name/Character/Character name.


 * So perhaps, in order to accomplish what you appear to be proposing, and eliminate the "Character/" subdirectory, we would want to move move-lists to Game name/Moves/Character name and move the bios/lists to Game name/Character name . Either way, we've got a subdirectory, but at least that way, the subdirectory wouldn't be directly referenced in the ToC.  Not sure if that's a complete solution, but it seems to be an improvement.  Doing the work to accomplish that though... that's not the kind of task I relish.   Pro  cyon  23:49, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to steer us in the right direction for a clean StrategyWiki with rules/formats that are easy to enforce by example. If everything is different, then my ability to help keep things efficient and standardized (i.e. easy to use with templates) becomes much more difficult.
 * I am not saying that any of us needs to do all of this at once. I plan on doing one guide at a time, very slowly. The point is to have a clean example and use that as our basis for future guides and discussions, as well as a reference while cleaning up other fighting guides.
 * We have been against all sub-directory structures. So "Game name/Character moves" is a better format than "Game name/Moves/Character". If you would like to abandon that rule, so that both forms may exist, fine. The problem is picking one or the other and we have always picked "Game name/Character moves" as a community since "Game name/Moves/Character/Sub-page" has been our concern (once we allow sub-directories, a lot of open-world type games and MMOs end up with ToCs like that). So please, if we can just avoid /Moves/Character altogether that would be best.
 * It is hard for me to say "we shouldn't do this" without looking back on the previous discussions, so maybe I can find something in the archives about this.
 * I replied to you on my page. I linked to your user page. When I did that, did you get a notification? I am wondering because I want to be able to use that as a standard way to "ping" users here. -- 21:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

How to play vs Getting Started
I'm separating this discussion because it is hard to keep focused. So, are you saying that it is okay to switch all How to Play pages over to Getting Started? I know what your opinion is in terms of what those titles infer to readers, but to us editors they are the same thing (basics; which was also one of the titles we voted on). -- 21:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * For historical reference, here are the two discussions that took place:


 * 
 * 
 * Interestingly the consensus was that both Getting Started and How to play were to be used, but under different conditions. I like unconditional situations, so that's why I've been pushing for a unified layout (also there is no mention of "How to play" or alternate layouts in SW:Guide... yet).
 * Ok, so, first of all, I have one big complaint with Getting Started that you don't have with How to play, and that is, Getting Started is title case and How to play is sentence case. Everything we do here is now sentence case (except for pre-sentence case templates like Header Nav). That said, I would actually suggest updating all 5000 Getting Started links to Getting started (I pushed for that in the original discussion). If we don't change Getting Started to Getting started, then How to play pages should be How to Play (but no, stick with sentence case please).
 * This is not a debate about scope. How to play consists of the same information as Getting Started. Albeit, in the case of NamcoRules' use, I would sub-page all enemy info to /Enemies or walkthrough pages.
 * After a lot of talk, we did not really focus much on what we wanted. Getting Started appeared to be the clearest way to say "basic info goes here". It grew on me. I like Getting Started. I feel like I put more emphasis on it than most editors. There is a lot of miscellaneous information that fits into its scope. Renaming it How to play would not matter to me. The same scope works. If you like How to play, fine. Then let's change it. That was your first idea. In the past I fought it because it sounded too much like a controls page, but honestly, it works.
 * Another issue is what to do with the mandatory Walkthrough page. I think for a fighting game it should briefly describe how the store/arcade mode works and basically point to the table of contents for more information. Walkthrough is one of our major SEO search terms since every guide has one, so it should remain mandatory regardless of how worthwhile its content is. -- 23:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, so this is a ton of stuff to digest... not sure if I'm going to succeed at responding to every thought, but I'll try. It's sad that we don't have more site-wide discussions about stuff like this, lately it's just you and me :(.
 * Concerning sub-directories, I'm not entirely opposed to them, I think we just try to steer away from them if we can. I am in favor of using sub-directories to house information "chunks" that are transcluded on a page (or multiple pages), but aren't directly referenced in the ToC.  So in that sense, the moves tables are a perfect candidate for this.  Sub-directory pages can behave like guide-specific templates in that sense; i.e. content that gets grouped together on a single page, but is somewhat irrelevant in isolation.  Whether we make a hard and fast policy on that is another matter.
 * As far as "Getting Started" vs "How to play", I think the safest approach is to consider the battle over, and "How to play" is deprecated. Otherwise, you have to start the whole argument again, and the consequences of changing the decision at this time would have a big ripple effect.  As for the camel-case/sentence-case issue, I agree with you completely, but again, that's a relatively huge change that you'd cause on the site, something we'd probably need to sic a bot on if we wanted to change it.  That being said, an argument against changing Getting Started to sentence-case is that it might screw up our Google indexing.  Many "Getting Started" pages are already pointed to by Google, and switching to "Getting started" might cause our search rank to fall.  Given our dip in traffic, that's not something I want to risk at this time.  Better to live with the pain of the inconsistency.
 * I agree with you about NamcoRules and the enemies stuff. He seems more interested in churning out templated guides than finessing them and tailoring each one to each game's specific needs.
 * Not sure why you're bringing up the Walkthrough issue with fighting games. Even if it doesn't make complete sense, they still have those pages, and I think given the context of the games they're talking about, they do a good job in terms of explaining the rules.  We just cover up for this fact by naming the link "How to play" in the ToC.  If you mean replacing the "How to play" text with "Walkthrough", I'm not sure that would make its purpose in the guide clearer.  Or if we switched "How to play" to "Getting Started", and made the Walkthrough pages the list of moves, it still wouldn't be clear.  As far as fighting games go, there is no actual "Walkthrough" per se unless there is some sort of Quest mode, like in the Soul Calibur series.
 * I admit there aren't always perfect answers to every situation, and Fighting games in particular sort of throw a wrench in some of our logic. I think the best policy is to be a little flexible.  One concern I have is that we turn off some editors by how strict we are about how guides can be constructed.  Granted, we kept the list of mandatory rules pretty small, but it might irk some people.  On the other hand, I totally appreciate your preference for clear and concise rules.  And as always, I appreciate your hard work and dedication.  This site would be a lot messier if it weren't for you.   Pro  cyon  01:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I know you're reluctant to make changes since we both don't have bots to take care of massive changes. Ignore the issue regarding Walkthrough. I noticed the Last Blade didn't have it, but I added it. The sentence case issue is going to bother me, forever, aha. Long term goal should be to rename Getting Started over and Header/Footer. That said, no changes at this time are necessary.
 * So two issues remain: when to use How to play? Or more simply, can I get your support that we shouldn't use it anymore? What I mean is, if I see it, can I change it to Getting Started?
 * If I see a fighting guide using /Characters/Character name can I change the structure to /Character name and move the movelist to /Moves/Character name? I'm fine with that for now; it is an improvement to hide the directory structure from the ToC. -- 16:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)