StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal/2007/July

Date categories
For the cats on the main page, should we use all of the dates as cats (e.g for a game that was released in 12 October in 1999 for Japan and 1st January 2311 in Europe), would we have the 1999, 1st Jan, 2311 and 12th October cat. The two years and the 1st date or just the first date and year, I've just been doing the 1st date and year but I'd like to know what is right.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 10:03, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * We used to categorise by all dates, but then it was decided that we'd categorise by the earliest date only, so that's what you should do. :-) --DrBob (Talk) 10:07, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I think that policy decision should be added to Pelago 16:18, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I've expanded that page a little, although I think it could still do with some more information. Feel free to suggest anything you think it's lacking. --DrBob (Talk) 16:40, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Sums
Is there a way to do simple sums with the Mediawiki software, I'm thinking of using it here to get the number of guides left. BTW hasn't been installed and I don't really think there'd be much point of having it here.--Rocky  (Talk - Contributions) 14:04, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10=. -- Prod (Talk) 14:12, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks, Prod.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 14:15, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Template parameter consistency
Well, I was looking at some of the templates we have, and a lot of the parameters seem somewhat arbitrary. For example on System we have |released and |consoleimage; on Infobox we have |releasedates and |boxart; on Company we have |logo. I would suggest changing consoleimage, boxart, and logo -> image (they're also consistent with what's used on wikipedia). releasedates on the other hand could be released, which is also used on wikipedia (they also allow |release). Company uses |website, Infobox uses |url. I personally prefer website since it's clearer. -- Prod (Talk) 15:24, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Agreed. I'll see if I can start making some of these changes. --DrBob (Talk) 15:28, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I support these changes, having to "learn" new templates more than necessary is a waste of time. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 17:32, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I've just finished updating the company and system templates, and all the pages referencing the parameters on those templates that I changed. --DrBob (Talk) 20:21, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Main Page WIP
Dan thinks it's really important that we get community feedback on some proposed changes to the Main Page, so if everybody would care to look at Main Page/WIP and give their opinions, I'd be grateful. The proposal is to add the "system browser" (system browser) just below the introductory text. --DrBob (Talk) 11:38, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * First order of business, do we use it at all. It would be much easier for me to use since I don't like reading... (then again, I rarely visit the front page).  After that, we can decide on placement.  There are two options so far


 * 1) Right at the top of the screen
 * 2) Just below the introduction
 * I prefer 2 since it merges in with the content much more "cleanly". -- Prod (Talk) 11:46, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks DrBob. One of the main issues with the new system nav is that if the browser window is just small enough, the nav jumps out of the page margin and overlaps the toolbox. We need to imeplent a min-width on StrategyWiki to fully fix this problem, and obviously that is an entire different discussion by itself. So until then, I think the logos should be made small enough such that the total width of the new nav is just as wide as the Genres browser. Another gripe of mine is the placement of the nav itself. Having it between the four-point columns and the SW introduction seems very displaced and attention-stealing. If it were smaller, it'd make more sense for it to be placed on the top of the page. And to reply to Prod (I jumped into an edit conflict with him at the time of this writing), I choose 1 on the notation that it steals attention from Most Promising Guide and What is StrategyWiki? columns. Seeing how many people read those sections and few will ever look at the console nav, it's not balanced.--Dan 11:57, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd like to offer a third placement that may be more difficult to implement, but more appealing visually. What if we put it inside the introduction box?  The logos would need to be smaller, which I think should be done anyway.  This might prevent it from distracting from the rest of the main page.-- Duke  Ruckley  13:07, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

2 Important things: 1) We need to support lower resolutions; currently the new main page and community issues pages have graphics that extend beyond the edges of the screen on even 800x600. I use a lower resolution at work, and people on Wii's are going to have an even smaller resolution (I think). 2) An easy way to resolve the community issues page is to make the image dynamic (left border, stretchable image, text, stretchable image, right border) with some html. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 18:35, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Additionally, I think the main page icons could be considerably smaller. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 18:38, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I like the graphical icons, but I think they should be smaller and not slanted diagonally (or at least, have *all* of them slanted rather than just some).Pelago 16:23, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * They wouldn't fit in 64x64px if they weren't slanted (without being illegible). --DrBob (Talk) 16:31, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * OK. To restart the discussion, I've modified the system browser template to use a scrollbar if things start overflowing, so if you now go to Main Page/WIP and resize it down to 800x600, things won't start leaking. I think the only issue that remains is that of the image size, which people think should be smaller. I'll have a go at sorting that too. --DrBob (Talk) 09:31, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I've changed the template to use 24px icons, which seem to work better, and it's no longer stealing all the attention. With people's support, I'd like to move this to the main Main Page pronto. --DrBob (Talk) 09:38, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll support it, looks great. Although, now that they are 24px they could all now be horizontal instead of diagonal. -- 09:42, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Support, so long as it still looks good on 800x600 resolution (it does now). Skizz, diagonal?  Everything looks rightside up to me. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 11:47, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I meant the icons themselves, like PS2, PS3, PSP, and GBA were diagonal so that they could fit without taking up too much room. However, they would look better as horizontal, even if they take up an extra 4-8 pixels in the process. -- 12:20, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I've gone ahead and pushed the WIP onto the main page, due to the support. The icons can be de-diagonalised at somebody's leisure. --DrBob (Talk) 17:02, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, it looks terrible in IE6, I think as default javacript is turned off so all the icons look absoulutely terrible.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 07:15, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, that gives you two really good options then (and one so-so option). Option 1, turn on your javascript. Option 2, get Firefox (and don't tell me that it keeps crashing, try re-installing it if it does). Option 3, get IE7. Also, how do the icons look "absolulutely terrible"? Is it because of the transparency? If so, consider options 2 and 3 and forget about 1. If you just grumble that you don't like it and don't specify why, we won't be able to improve it. -- 08:24, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
 * There's nothing we can do about the icons without JavaScript turned on. I don't actually have a copy of IE6 (anywhere) to test, but I'll boot into Windows (ugh) in a minute and give it a try in IE7. --DrBob (Talk) 09:08, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
 * This would be a good reason to revisit Unresolved issue 8.7. Far less significant sites besides our own slap a label on the front page that says "Best viewed in FireFox at 800x600 or higher".  I don't see why we shouldn't either.  There doesn't seem to be any contrary opinion to the fact that the site looks bad in IE6, and IE7 just seems passable.  Procyon (Talk) 09:32, 10 August 2007 (CDT)

Is there any way to make the entire table box be clickable? It would be nice. -- 19:35, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Probably not, as that is all cellpadding. -- 19:53, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think there is; the typical way of doing such things involves putting the image inside the same link element as the text, and from my experiments just now, that's not possible without using plain HTML, and MediaWiki won't allow  elements. --DrBob (Talk) 04:16, 11 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, but I wouldn't like to look at it on a low resolution, take a screenshot of the box and imagemap the links and pics, that's the only way I can think of, on another point, it will solve the browser issue.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 16:26, 11 August 2007 (CDT)
 * That's a nasty solution, and I'm not going to let it happen. *nods* --DrBob (Talk) 04:38, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

Milestone achieved
We have now reached 1337 guides! We are officially 1337! -- Prod (Talk) 11:49, 2 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Our 1337 guide (I think) is Heretic WOOT!!!--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 11:57, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Correct, created at 11:28, 2 July 2007 by Vikrant AP. -- Prod (Talk) 12:02, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Hah, you beat me to it! :P Oh well:



echelontalk 14:08, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Am I missing something? Why is 1337 a milestone?? --RamonSalazar 19:06, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Check wikipedia. -- Prod (Talk) 19:15, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

OK now no one create another guide for a while (j/k). But I would really want to see the day when the number of completed guides is 1337! Baejung92 20:26, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Too late :-P. -- Prod (Talk) 20:30, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Nooooooo!! Baejung92 14:25, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

Deprecated Templates Category
There are a ton of pages in the deprecated templates category that really don't belong there. I think it may have happened during the transition to the HN from the AGN... Any easy fix to this?-- Duke Ruckley  14:40, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * By changing the AGN to HN and changing prev to back in the FN, those pages still aren't done (Prod's cleaning up every page before he does the navs).--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 14:46, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
 * They were put there since the AGN is deprecated. It'll be empty again in a few weeks (or at least mostly).  If you want a list of non AGN related pages, I can give that to you. -- Prod (Talk) 15:00, 2 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Could always replace the page with:


 * and that'd fix it. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 18:30, 15 July 2007 (CDT)

Move List namespace
Sorry if I've missed talk on this already, but shouldn't there be a namespace for all these Move Lists? Maybe it annoys me more than it should, but it seems like they should be moved to their respective games or namspaced ( yes, it's a verb ), because there's no game called "Move Lists". --blendmaster 13:11, 3 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I think Category:Move lists is enough, though it might be nice to have a separate namespace. I don't think it's necessary though. -- Prod (Talk) 23:50, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

E3
Hey guys, I wanted to give you all a heads up on E3. It starts next week, and you can view it live at GameSpot.com; I'll be checking it out, I hope to see some new StarCraft II footage. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 11:16, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I have some buddies who are going this year so if you want pictures of anything, let me know and I'll see if I can get in touch with them while they are there. E3 is going to be a little different this year, but I doubt that it will be so different that they won't get burned out after like the first day.  I used to make it a little game out of it and see how much SWAG I could get and stuff in my bag... Procyon (Talk) 14:45, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm mostly interested in Blizzard and Nintendo stuff. But anything really innovative is definitely on my list as well.  Whatever happend to that game... Spores was it?  Where you like, create a custom creature, it evolves over time, then eventually you like, duke it out with other tribes and stuff...  --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 21:39, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
 * It's Spore. The hype for it is so huge that I'm wondering if it's going to be the next Fable or Daikatana; they weren't terrible, but they were only a shadow of all that was promised. Anyway, it's going to be interesting to see how it turns out. GarrettTalk 23:37, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't let Mason hear you say that :P--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 01:30, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think Spore is real likely to flop... It is being created by Will Wright, who has a history of coming up with really awesome games (SimCity series, The Sims, etc).-- Duke  Ruckley  09:24, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

ps3 walkthroughs
I think some one needs to start on walkthroughs for the playstation 3 games. i own a ps3, and frequently can't find any sort of help online, not even on stratgey wiki. the only game ive seen a walkthrough for is for resistance: fall of man. The games on the ps3 can be more difficult than games on other systems at times, and sometimes you may just want to figure out some oblivious thing to the game. i thing this would really help strategy wiki, and i plan on starting a guide to motorstorm for the ps3. -Pyro maniac 13:02, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * It can take some time for people to start writing strategy guides after getting a new system like a PS3, and we don't have many contributors for the PS3, so as you say we haven't got many PS3 guides. It's good to hear you're planning to write one (just make sure it's not a copyright violation ;-), and feel free to ask any questions here in community issues. :-) --DrBob (Talk) 13:08, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * BTW we have 14 main pages for PS3 guides, see the bottom of here.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 13:11, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Release dates
I'm not sure why it wasn't done before, but I've got round to making some release date templates, which display release dates in a standard form, with a little country flag. The default one is rd, and I've tried to keep them all as short as possible, meaning that when used normally, they now occupy less space than the old release date stuff used to. :-) I don't think there's much to comment on, apart from the fact that I couldn't get Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg working (so uk is using Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.png temporarily instead). I've converted Final Fantasy X to use the new templates (simply because it has a few release dates), so you can see how they look. Enjoy! --DrBob (Talk) 14:41, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I've just applied the templates to all the guides linked from the front page, and I'll stop there to give people time to point out what a stupid idea this all is. :-D --DrBob (Talk) 14:57, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Might I suggest we use WP:Template:flagicon instead/aswell? It's really just a merge of all the templates into one. The main reason is, we tend to get a lot of those infoboxes from WP, so we might as well stay consistent as much as possible. -- Prod (Talk) 22:15, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * flagicon is better in the long run for several reasons. GarrettTalk 23:55, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I can't see much point, since it would bring an extra dependency into every page with an infobox (once these templates are used everywhere), and we're basically only going to use four or five flags, and only in those places. --DrBob (Talk) 06:09, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

I like the idea of using templates. It helps standardise the country codes (some pages use EU while others use Europe, and so forth) and could have other uses in the future. Since SVG rendering is still faulty (DrBob, can you get this working?) the template should use PNGs for now. These can be easily generated using Wikipedia's sandbox. GarrettTalk 23:55, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I think the SVGs for all flags except Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg render fine. I've got no idea what's wrong with the UK flag, but it isn't rendering well on my system either. --DrBob (Talk) 06:09, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I really like this idea and how it shows up in the infobox. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 12:55, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
 * The image is prerendered as a PNG before being sent to the client; browsers' SVG support (or lack thereof) have no effect on its appearance. GarrettTalk 16:41, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I know; I probably didn't phrase that very well. What I mean is that the program generating the previews for the SVG files as they're saved on my computer is choking on the UK flag. --DrBob (Talk) 07:01, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

SSBB controls
I've just found this page, and despite providing more content for the guide, it raises an interesting question: how are we to represent Wiimote movements in controls pages? We can represent the common ones easily enough, but then you get games like WarioWare: Smooth Moves which use the controller to its full extent, and it gets harder. --DrBob (Talk) 15:00, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Gr8 site, I check nearly every day, we could have very small animated SVGs (if any1 is good with inkscape or other SVG editor) or gifs.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 15:08, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Animated SVGs are not an option because of poor browser support (see wp:SVG animation) and the necessity of yet another MediaWiki extension to get around them being automatically rendered into PNG (and thus unable to be manipulated by scripts).
 * Since many Wii games don't use the Z axis to its full effect (and thus have controls comparable to a mouse or analog stick) it should be quite possible to come up with a standard set of movements (like cade) and simply combine the instructions (like the Move lists) rather than make individual animations for each individual game action. It shouldn't be too difficult to decide upon some standard and clearly different colours for each axis (as with wp:Image:Flight dynamics.jpg). GarrettTalk 23:47, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Of course, but then what about games like WarioWare: Smooth Moves? I can only suggest we make some game-specific ones, although we could try and make them more general where possible. --DrBob (Talk) 06:11, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
 * The best solution I can come up with is using images that show the direction the remote should move, with a good description of it. For example, if the remote should be swung above the head clockwise, we should have an image of the remote with a red arrow that indicates a circular, clockwise rotation.  We may be forced to come up with many images for all the different moves, but I think it is possible.  Keep in mind, we can also reference the booklet or even in-game tutorials which would do a much better job than we could anyway.-- Duke  Ruckley  09:33, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
 * With games that have a 1:1 motion action ratio, Move Lists sound like the best way to go. On something like Twilight Princess, I think it would be good to have a general picture of how a certain action is controlled. For instance, a picture of waggle for the sword, and a picture of a targeting reticle for the bow. Something almost uncannily like this. With games like WarioWare: Smooth Moves, a description would suffice for each mini game. Besides, aren't the controls for each mini game summarized in game anyway? --blendmaster 14:27, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

System messages
Does anyone know what system message controls where the links go in the bottom right hand corner (I want to un-redirect about StrategyWiki). I think MediaWiki:Aboutsite is what it says but I can't find out how to un-redirect the about link.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 02:38, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Fixed. The page that controls the link was MediaWiki:Aboutpage, by the way. -- 10:08, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:09, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Stats
We now have over 4000 pages according to Special:Statistics and we are rated no. 921 in New Zealand according to Alexa. W00T --
 * Nice! :D echelontalk 18:14, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Wiki Tabs
After finding out that page-specific js is nonexistant, I would like to request that the ability to make wiki tabs (code here, example here) to be put into MediaWiki:Common.js. This can be particularly useful with long lists of pages (like The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess/Enemies), so that instead of having either a very large page or 3-5 sub-pages, you can just hide the content until they want to have it shown. It works with images as well, and it can be used multiple times on one page (as demonstrated in the example). -- 14:00, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Looks OK, can we have a show all button as well if sum1 wants to print it out?--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 14:03, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * No, the current code won't allow that. The only current way to do it is to put noinclude tags around the divs and then include that page into another page. -- 14:18, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Compression
Does anyone think we should have Category:Images needing compressing for these images--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 14:40, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Why do we worry about compression? Most of the time we use thumbnails to present these images anyway. I think it's kind of cool that we have a large collection of high-quality game-related imagery. I'd like us to build galleries in the future! echelontalk 18:18, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I think Rocky was meaning lossless solutions like PNGcrush. GarrettTalk 00:43, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Almost, I mean so that you can't really see any difference, e.g this from this. BTW PNGCrush would be good.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 01:17, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I've just reverted that image, as it did lose too much quality, and as echelon says, we've got the space, and almost all of the time people just see a thumbnail. If they want to see a larger version, then it's their choice to download it. I'd be fine with lossless solutions though (although they'd be better if they weren't run by us and uploaded as new versions of files, as that just takes up more space on the server unnecessarily). --DrBob (Talk) 13:21, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry then, feel free to delete what I uploaded--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 14:51, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * BTW does anyone mind if I compress or resize boxart a bit, it's not really that useful and some of the WP boxart is over 1MB--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 14:54, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I mind. I think it's a good thing to have a repository of box artwork, and it's not hurting for all the reasons above. --DrBob (Talk) 15:07, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah don't worry about it. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 15:11, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry, I was just a bit worried if they'd break fair use for being hig enough resolution for piracy.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 15:15, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * My impression is that if they are going to care about a screenshot, it's not going to matter the resolution. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 15:22, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I was talking about boxart, it doesn't matter though.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 15:30, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I have to agree with DrBob. I like our high-res collection of images. Since images appear on-page as thumbnails, the end user is not at all affected by resolution. However, if they would like a quality version of the original we are able to provide them with that. I think we should aim to keep the best quality images (within reason) available on our server. I think we'll scale to handle it all. echelontalk 21:35, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Guide search
I've added some code to search the current guide to my user js. It adds a link to the toolbox to do a search of the current book. Think we should implement it in MediaWiki:Bluecloud.js? -- Prod (Talk) 17:54, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * My one thing is that I would switch "book" to "guide," like I did in my user js. -- 18:45, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * One minor problem is that the page name isn't used as an exact expression—searches started from The Legend of Zelda will also result in hits from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and the like. More worryingly, it can't search titles with parentheses (e.g. Shadowrun (Genesis)) or special characters (e.g. We ♥ Katamari) even though these pages are indeed found if you do a web search for site:strategywiki.org. If these problems can somehow be resolved (perhaps by using the Custom Search Engine service?) I can definitely see implementing this. GarrettTalk 00:42, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Sounds good in principle, but the issues Garrett mentioned would need fixing. --DrBob (Talk) 15:08, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Does that mean we can do it or we can't? If not, this should be archived.  --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 12:03, 9 August 2007 (CDT)

Wikipedia article
I think it's about time we seriously pursue a Wikipedia entry about StrategyWiki; having an article about our project will boost the visibility and viability of our project in the minds of others and further serve to boost our growth. Our notability statistics should already be more than enough to meet Wikipedia's concerns for WP:WP:NN and WP:WP:WEB.

We've worked on Wikipedia Article in the past, but I think we should rethink the content a little and focus on the key points. By focusing on the history we've had with Wikibooks, the past year of growth, and the lessons we've learned about presenting wiki guides, I think our article will give people a sense of what our project is and where it is going. Half of what we're saying just needs to be rephrased.

We don't really even need to mention GameFAQs. I'm tired of us being compared to GameFAQs in every Digg, blog writeup, etc. we ever have. :(

I'd like to post it to Wikipedia in a week.

What do you think? echelontalk 18:33, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with severing the tie with GameFAQs (like I mentioned in our last digg. As for notability, I think it could stand up through the deletion nom and be kept (I almost guarantee that it'll be nommed for deletion). The one thing is that the infobox is missing the owner and created by info, and I think that it would be nice to include (don't know who you could reference for it, though). -- 18:50, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I still doubt we'd survive it. We have no "notable" references.  And using wikibooks as a proxy is fairly weak as well (they threw all their "junk" at us).  We have to be noticed by some major websites, or get in the top 10k alexa ranking. -- Prod (Talk) 19:41, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Not to mention scale to another server via Squid and Replica (when it's finished.)--Dan 23:19, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I say hold off on anything until we are actually noteworthy. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 12:04, 9 August 2007 (CDT)

Stylistic issue: 2nd person vs. 3rd person
Hi everyone. As some of you may know, I have begun to contribute to the The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past walkthrough. I have begun making changes to the very first part in the Hyrule Castle. I didn't plan on this originally, but it became somewhat enjoyable to write the walkthrough aspect of the guide in 3rd person, sort of as a novelization of Links' adventures. The writing style was designed to be entertaining and at the same time, informative, with examples like:
 * "Link tries to stun him with his new-found Boomerang, but it has little effect. Link fights well, but he takes some damage during the fight. He discovers that the pottery nearby contain hearts, just in case he runs low on life. Better yet, he realizes that he can throw the pottery at the guard, killing him even faster than with a sword."

But Garrett pointed out to me that this does, in fact, contradict every other guide's style of writing, and asked me to change it back to second person. After some hesitation, I agreed. I knew that Garrett had a point, and I didn't want to be stubborn about it and simply deny his request. So I have gone through and made the changes. The above was changed to:
 * "You can try to stun him with your new-found Boomerang, but it has little effect. If you take some damage during the fight, the pottery nearby contain hearts, just in case you run low on life. Better yet, you can throw the pottery at the guard, killing him even faster than with a sword."

For the time being, I will proceed in second person, but I'd like to ask for the community's opinion. Since the revisions are saved, I would like anyone to take a moment, and examine the page as it was written in third person, and as it is now written in second person. After you have compared them both (everything up to the Sewer section, I had not rewritten that part yet), please share your thoughts about whether the third person approach could in fact be a viable approach (if done properly) on StrategyWiki. If the majority clearly feels that this is not the direction that SW should proceed, then consider the matter closed. However, if there is enough of an agreement that the 3rd person style might be included, then we can discuss it here, and decide how we would like to proceed. Thanks very much, and thanks to Garrett for giving me a chance to broach the subject with everyone. Procyon (Talk) 19:34, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Personally, as long as it is consistant throughout, I really don't care. The 3rd person does give the text extra flavor, and, if done carefully and correctly, has the potential to relay more information to the reader than 2nd person (mainly because 2nd person guide-writing normally says "do this", while 3rd person can say "Link tries this, but it doesn't work, so he does this instead" to explains what happens if something else is tried beside the strategy). I'd say keep the 3rd person only to guides which have a central main character that you cannot choose from, and keep it consistant throughout the guides (like Pokémon should be in second person because later games have the option between a boy and a girl, so it must use second person, and the earlier games should match that style). As for the Legend of Zelda series, I think it would be great if the majority of them were in third person, if not just for the extra flavor of it. As another side note, games in the first person perspective should never be written in third person. -- 19:50, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * That first example, the style of writing is just way to weird. Like I can't read it like a guide.  When I looked at the second example, it totally made sense to me.  Strange stuff... Voodoo guide writing!  --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 20:00, 9 July 2007 (CDT)


 * I think this diff is more useful. My view is that it actually requires a mix of both.  Cinematics should be 3rd person, gameplay should be 2nd person.  -- Prod (Talk) 22:38, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm hesitant to say "yes" to having a whole guide in third-person, because as NMH says, it sounds weird (to me, anyway). I think Prod has a good idea though, and I'd be OK with that — you could, for example, put stuff in sidebars in third-person. --DrBob (Talk) 12:08, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Hmm... I love this style of writing, but I think it depends on genre. Action-adventure games (Tomb Raider and what-not) and RPGs could really use this and benefit from it, while for certain types of shooters (say, Battlefield 2) and most RTSes the classic 2nd person would be better. But in RTSes where you play a certain character throughout the game (StarCraft), it might work. Baejung92 14:35, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I think it just isn't straight forward enough. Cut to the chase!  Like my whole "flowery" language on Mega Man, it's the same thing (Proc/Prod).  For Cinematics, I think we should have a special template that acts as a drop down (i.e. Template:Cinematic).  Using this template we hide the cinematic info (it's a spoiler, and they can just watch anyways) but use 3rd person descriptions on it.  I'll make it if you guys like the idea.  Also, the bar (like Header Nav) would be colored to have it stand out.  --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 21:18, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

I prefer the second person imperative style: "Go here, do that, and when you've finished killing him, do this". Some of Paper Mario is currently in third person, and it reads very strangely to my ears. Pelago 16:09, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm on the side of 2nd person. A user that needs help advancing in a game wants either a quick answer or in depth teaching of strategies. The pages that have been linked for examples of 3rd person being used hurt my brain a bit. It takes a moment of studying the text to dig up the instructions. The key word you is great for quickly skimming for instructions on the next action. Any time I have ever needed a guide was becasue I could not figure out what was needed to advance further. I do however agree with someone above. Parts of the guide that are story only (like cutscenes or dialog) work well as either. Since there is no control over elements like cutscenes the change in narrative seems really fitting. It could express a diffirence between when the player has or lacks control over actions. --Zaiqukaj 04:45, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

1st person narrative
Breaking off from the above thread, how's something like this? It's not quite the first person POV I've learned not to use. Baejung92 14:33, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
 * It is certainly interesting, but I'm going to say no. For one thing, it has to be worded perfectly in order for it to flow and sound right, and many people use strategy guides as... guides! I highly doubt someone did everything written on a guide in exactly that order without differing from it slightly. To me, our purpose is to recommend an effective strategy. What the people actually do with our strategy is entirely up to them. Plus, to someone that understands that more than one person wrote the page, it adds a layer of complexity, for the guide implies that it was written by one, whereas the history states otherwise. Whenever I say "we are all one", I think of the borg from Star Trek. I don't want to be a borg. -- 15:42, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Image too big
I would like to upload this image to put as boxart but every time I try to upload it, I get an error message. Is this a limit that's been set in the software or what?--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 12:10, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't know the answer to your question Rocky, but I'm just curious: why on earth do you want to upload an image that is so huge? Procyon (Talk) 12:19, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
 * It would help if you posted the actual error message. :-P --DrBob (Talk) 13:00, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Dunno about Firefox but it comes up with the default IE6 "Cannot find server or DNS Error" error.

--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 14:18, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
 * The browser might be timing out because the image is so huge. Seriously, why do you need an image that big? It's 1565x2236! -- 14:23, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I got told By DB to not bother compressing it because we have the space. But I guess that was one exception.--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 14:29, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
 * We can use box artwork which is bigger than 250px for stuff, but something that large is going to have to be downsized whatever you use it for. --DrBob (Talk) 16:44, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
 * That image is 1.66 MB. Try to stay below 1 MB, though the cap is at 1.5MB. -- Prod (Talk)
 * I affirm the above statement.--Dan 00:05, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

StrategyWiki:Guide/Tables
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Why is there so much stuff on this page? Does anyone mind if I rip it all out, and replace it with a basic tutorial for simple tables, revolving around correct use of headers, captions, and prettytable? --DrBob (Talk) 09:19, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't forget about class="wikitable", but yeah, I think that would be a good idea. I think it should focus more on what is commonly used (wikitable and prettytable), not every aspect of a table. We could have a group of pages in like StrategyWiki:Guide/Advanced/ for more advanced techniques for those who want to learn more than the basic stuff. -- 09:41, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * The guide is supposed to be a replacement for the Help namespace on WP. We should have all this stuff explained within the guide, it just doesn't have to all be in the same place. -- Prod (Talk) 13:43, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Why not use |customnext on the footer nav to add the advanced tables and others in and have it bulleted in the TOC--Rocky Rally-X Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 15:30, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Sounds like a plan. I'll try and do it tomorrow. --DrBob (Talk) 18:35, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * prettytable is a wrapper for wikitable, so wikitable on its own is basically deprecated. --DrBob (Talk) 18:35, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I've moved the old stuff to Guide/Tables/Advanced, and re-done the Guide/Tables page so it only covers what most people need. --DrBob (Talk) 09:28, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Half-Life
There's a wikibooks:Wikibooks:Votes for deletion up for deletion on wikibooks. Do we want it or not? If yes, how would we arrange the pages? If someone can tell me how to arrange them, I can take care of the transwiki (edit history and all). -- Prod (Talk) 21:12, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * We should definitely have them here, as they do provide some nice information. As to where we should put them, I have no idea. I've transwiki'ed them over to GameInfo on Wikia just in case WikiBooks decides to delete them before we can get them here and/or we decide not to have them here. -- 21:54, 12 July 2007 (CDT)


 * I'll help sort that out later. I've beaten HL like 10 times, OF like twice and played half way through blue shift.  For now, just dump it on something like Half-Life/Wikibooks Dump.  --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 22:44, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Well? What are we going to do about this? The page has been deleted at wikibooks, but I still have the xml file of all of it sitting on my hard drive for an easy import. So, what are we going to do about this? -- 10:33, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Go ahead and import it? --DrBob (Talk) 11:41, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Done. It's at Half-Life Fact File, and every page on it will more than likely need major cleanup. -- 11:49, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * That's fine. People will get around to integrating it soon. Topic closed. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 12:05, 9 August 2007 (CDT)

2 covers?
Just a thought, but if a game has 2 completely different covers for its US and European versions (such as MGS: Twin Snakes) could we include both of these in the game's infobox (e.g. one above the other)? --RamonSalazar 08:29, 13 July 2007 (CDT) Pelago 16:32, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Put the cover which was first released in the infobox, and then any other covers in a
 * If it's not obvious which country the boxart in the infobox is from, a note can be made in the introductory text on the main guide page. I think it would be a bit redundant to have the same image again in the gallery below, but I certainly wouldn't be against it (it would allow for a more direct comparison). I'm being nitpicky now, but it wouldn't be AJAX which would be used to do such scripting — it would simply be DOM manipulation via JavaScript, and I think that just over-complicates matters. --DrBob (Talk) 16:35, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Image Naming
I've created and uploaded a few images for Picross DS (basically puzzle solution pictures) and they have all been tagged for re-naming. As far as I can tell, they fit in with the examples given in the image naming guide. The series of images are called Picrossds easymode a‎ and so on - meaning that image is for "Puzzle A" in Easy Mode of Picross DS. I'd like to know what the images should be called as I have more to add to the guide. --RamonSalazar 09:04, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Looking at those image names without knowing that info you just mentioned makes it seem like they are just all images of "easymode" marked in order with letters instead of numbers. Perhaps Picrossds easymode puzzle a could have reduced that ambiguity, but I think that naming them of their object name (like Picrossds puzzle star or Pircrossds puzzle ball) would reduce the ambiguity even more. -- 09:24, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * An extension would be nice. I was talking with Prod when he tagged them.  They don't need to be as descriptive as Skizzers suggested, but I mean, a period and three extra letters isn't too much to ask for. Procyon (Talk) 10:20, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * lol, didn't even notice that. .png would be the extension to use for that, since all of them are in that format. -- 10:27, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I didn't notice that either, oops. So does that mean the actual names of the files are OK? --RamonSalazar 10:57, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Everyone's filenaming, including my own, could always stand to be improved, but there's only so far you're going to go before it becomes too much. For me personally, the only things about a filename that truly matter are:
 * Can you tell what game it's from somehow?
 * Is each picture from one game given a distinct label?
 * Is the file type (extention) identified?
 * If you're meeting all three of those criteria, then you've done the minimum acceptable work. Procyon (Talk) 12:27, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Header Capitalization
I think its time we standardized our headers. I prefer all words to have capitalized first letters, but I'm also ok with words like an, the, and the like to be lowercase. What I don't like is having headers like "In the dungeon," since there's no punctuation at the end. Having the caps makes it more like a title, which is what its function is. Agree, disagree? Once decided, info needs to be appended to the using wikimarkup page of the guide, as well as any others that discuss it. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 10:13, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I definitely agree. Looks more aesthetic. echelontalk 23:29, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

You may want to look at this
has been nominated for adminship. Please check out his nomination page and fill in what you think of him. -- 13:51, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Oh! Dango! Jam
THe guide someone was making was removed, but he posted the link on the site where a lot of us found the game, and I decided to create an account to appeal. I wouldn't be able to make the guide, but if he is still around, I think it would be a good addition.

It's not commercial, or made by a big name company, but it has a lot of players, and has enough to it that a strategy guide would be useful.

The game is a fighting game with mini pixel characters. each character has its own moves, and you can customize what stats you level up, and can change characters by defeating them enough to get their item.

I want it to be allowed, not to advertise it, but for people who already play it. Someone mentioned the reason its for bigger games, was to not make it an advertising agency and that would be bad, but the site I go to probably has 100s if not more people seeing it already, so it doesn't need advertising I think. I just want to be able to read up on strategies for beating the different characters and character building (as I'm mostly pumping stats into attack, and just rushing the enemies hoping I don't get hit.) - --Elk (Talk)


 * Would you please post a link to that site? I'd like to see it for myself.-- Duke  Ruckley  15:25, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Dukeruckley: it can be found at . Anyway, seeing that it does seem to have a decently-sized player based for the game to be worth it, I say go for it (of course, a mention of it in English also helped, just found that today on Google). Elk, the deleted content can be easily restored, so if the consensus here is to allow it to have a guide, I'll bring back all of the old content that was deleted. I would definitely like to state right now that this is not a blanket case for all web games. Each game's merits will have to be evaluated individually before inclusion should be allowed if it is a free web game by a non-major gaming company. -- 15:31, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I actually played it the other day and was nauseated by the amount of time I felt compelled to play with it :P Purely on the basis that it seems to have a large number of players, I say what the heck, it can't hurt us, and it might attract some more attention.  Anytime we can be the very first English guide to a foreign game is a plus in my book.  Procyon (Talk) 22:43, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

Names of species, capitalized or not?
I say no. In a lot of our guides we say, Metroids, Geemers, etc. But that's not grammatically correct - we wouldn't say Dogs or Cats... Races are fine, like by faction or region, but creatures, no. Anyone disagree? We need to put these changes into the mispellings project page, or sub page, or... yeah we need to sort that out as well. How about we have a project subpage for each guide that goes over spelling specific to it? Pokemon, Metroid, etc. all have their peculiarities. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 12:39, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
 * True, we don't say Dogs or Cats, but that's because that's only the species name. All of those enemies you've mentioned are the names of the enemies themselves, making them proper nouns, and therefore should be capitalized. Otherwise we'd have to switch all mentions of Bradon Suit with brandon suit, and I'm not sure Echelon would like that :P. Basically, even though that is the name of the species, it is also the enemy's proper name, and therefore should be capitalized. -- 13:35, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Woah there, hold up, let me quote Wikipedia on this one (referenced too): "Proper nouns (also called proper names) are nouns representing unique entities (such as London or John), as distinguished from common nouns which describe a class of entities (such as city or person)." Thus what you are saying is that even though I kill a thousand metroids, they are all the Metroid.  What I'm saying is that that they are not unique.  Kraid and Motherbrain are unique, which is why they have capitalized names; but not species.  Motherbrain is a brain, not a Brain.  --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 20:44, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
 * However, if you were arguing race, then perhaps we have a problem. I don't know the answer to this one, and I'm going to bring it up on the talk page of the noun page, but on all animal pages, the taxonomy/kingdoms crap are all capitalized.  I.e. Notostraca, Triops, Crustacea.  This decision is going to take some time... --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 20:49, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
 * The reason that the words dog and cat aren't capitalized is because the creatures are mundane in our world. If the characters from, say, StarCraft are writing about Zerglings they wouldn't capitalize it because they're a common sight in their world, but we should because we're talking about them in a guide about that world (I should say game). They're fictious creatures, so I think that would make them proper nouns. I could have worded all that better :P, but anyway I think the names should be capitalized. Baejung92 21:16, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
 * What about Dragons and Orcs? I haven't met one of those in quite a while. Declaration: Capitalizing nouns is old timey. 1600s old timey. Ahem:
 *  A mischievous  Metroid is a Director of Discontent. A Leech, in quality, and a Hyena, in countenance: her cry is a Curse, her word a Threat, her attack Death. She is the adventurer's Peril, the speed runner's Strife, and the save point's Resolution. (The Metroid Enchridion 637)
 * The prosecution rests. --  blendmaster | talk  ]] 22:29, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
 * We broke that tradition long ago. Modern English doesn't do that.  --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 22:35, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
 * You've hit the nail directly on the head, my good chap. --  blendmaster | talk  ]] 14:04, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
 * hi guyz loll wats this captialisation thing u got????? lol!!!!!!11 echelontalk 23:27, 5 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd worry more about ^that type of stuff. This seems completely like a matter of stylistic preference. :P echelontalk 23:27, 5 August 2007 (CDT)