StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal

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Sims 2 partnership
I noticed from this diff http://simpedia.co.uk. They don't seem to have much in the line of walkthrough information which is good for us. However, they are still rather small, so I'm not sure if it's worth it. If we decide against the partnership, the link should be removed since they are essentially competitors. -- Prod (Talk) 20:59, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd say no, just remove the link. -- 22:07, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll talk with me colleagues. &mdash; Supuhstar * [[Image:Supuhstar(SupuhSmall).gif]]

Community Portal
At the meeting we discussed a redesign of the Community Portal which would be more useful as a collaborative tool. We've already rearranged it a bit, but we had discussed a couple new possibilities. The shoutbox idea is really cool, but until we can implement it, I had mentioned the idea of a projects box. Check out this page and see if you like it. If so we can go ahead and use it until the shoutbox idea can be implemented. All I really did was replace the DPL with projects (they could also use better descriptions, both in the Community Portal and on their respective pages).-- Duke Ruckley  07:51, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * That's a very good idea, and much more useful than a list that's on the main page anyway. I say go for it. GarrettTalk 04:35, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

Watching Pages
I was wondering if it is possible to implement an option to "watch guide" where instead of having to select every page in a guide, to select the guide itself and have it include all subpages and talk pages. For example, if I want to watch each EarthBound subpage, I would choose watch all on the EarthBound main page. Think this is possible?-- Duke Ruckley  12:15, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It's totally possible, but not a feature implemented into mediawiki yet. We could write our own script, however...  All we need is a function that returns all the pages of a guide and then opens them using "http://strategywiki.org/w/index.php?title=PAGENAME&action=watch."  That would be messy, but at least it would get 'em all done quickly (mediawiki browser bomb anyone?).  -- 12:29, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * In addition to what NMH said, you might want to make sure it's down as a feature suggestion (option to watch subpages of watched pages) on MediaWiki's Bugzilla. -- 13:08, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Will do.-- Duke Ruckley  16:36, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Bug 2308 seems to be what I was looking for. However, it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 07:09, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Considering alternatives to Google Adsense
I thought I would throw this discussion wide open to the community. We've talked about it a few times in the staff meetings on IRC, but I'd like some input that any of you have about possible substitutes to Google Adsense. At the moment, it's helpful, but it doesn't quite cut the mustard. With more traffic, that may improve, but it can't be counted upon. There are alternatives out there, but I'm not particularly knowledgeable about many of them. I know that there is an eBay click-through program, and an Amazon click-through program. I also have a direct line to (and have been in contact with) the staff at Advertising.com, but this introduces the subject of visual ads and their placement. I have a feeling that the reception any non-text based visual advertisement is going to be very poor, from both the core community and the outlying community. However, I believe these ads really do stand the chance to create the highest possible stream of revenue from my personal understanding. I would love to be proven wrong, and possibly educated by anyone else if they have personal experience dealing with any of these, or other, possible alternatives. Thanks very much. Procyon (Talk) 13:35, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm fine with ads as long as they don't hinder editing, I really wouldn't want popups here. I think we should try the Amaon and Ebay links first but I don't think we'll get much from them really because if you want the walkthrough then you'll most likely have the game.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 15:15, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Not ebay, since what would they be selling that people reading the guide would want anyway? As for the Amazon ads, I think they are a good idea (and Garrett already has done some experimentation of how they get laid out, which is also a good thing). Perhaps having both Amazon and AdSense might make an extra hundred dollars or so in revenue per month (hopefully). Also, it appears that non BlueCloud skins don't have ads, so implement them there as well. As for the advertising.com flash/picture ads, as long as they're small and sort-of out of the way, I'm fine with it. Or even better, do what Wikia does and display larger and flashier ads when users are not logged in, and hide/shrink the flashy ones and stick with only the AdSense or whatever when they do log in (also encourages people to create accounts, and hopefully also use them -- perhaps make the type of ads that appear change based on how many edits a user makes, and outline it somewhere). I've brought up a couple of other points in the sections below. -- 16:10, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Auction Ads apparently yields up to 400% more than AdSense. Based on the demo the ads seem to be unobtrusive and properly targeted. We could probably make more from Amazon referrals, though. Unfortunately the Amazon ads box doesn't seem to detect products intelligently enough to give reliable links to the game a given page is actually covering, so the links would have to be done manually via a template of some sort (you can see my experiment right here). GarrettTalk 19:21, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I would recommend just sticking with Google AdSense, and perhaps adding an Amazon link; no other advertising services compare with AdSense (I'm a bit suspicious of the one Garrett brought up; I've never heard of it before), and I worry about turning StrategyWiki into a billboard. We're here for the guides, not adverts. -- 11:09, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I've heard of the service Garrett was mentioning. Personally I think if Garrett can easily implement some of them, we should try any and all that we can easily access.  DrBob, I understand your hesitation, but there's a bottom line for SW users: More money = bigger SW, and bigger SW = better experience for the users.  No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying you have to buy something (that's what the donate button is for ^_^), but there's money to be made, and we're not making enough of it.  We can even try implementing the idea that Skizzerz has for logged in vs. non-logged in users (and fixing the non-BlueCloud skins to show the ads as well).  There are so many ways now for users to filter out ads that if someone was truly offended by the sight of them, they could correct that for themselves.  Heck, Firefox makes ad filtering almost too easy!  Procyon (Talk) 14:43, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm currently in agreement with DrBob.. I don't really want to see any large ads on SW.  One of the reasons I left GameFAQs in the first place was because of all the annoying ads they have added.  As for the idea about logged in vs. not logged in users...  What's going to happen here is that potential contributors and browsers are going to come to the site for the first time and see all these big flashy ads, and then just leave.  I think that you are less likely to draw more contributors, even if you get rid of the ads for logged in users.  New users aren't going to know that offhand.  And its not going to be easy to keep their attention long enough for them to see that by registering they can get rid of those unwanted ads.


 * I think that by taking a very slow approach to adding ads would be better than just all of sudden having them. We should start small with the ads and work on having more people who regularly contribute first.  Once we have a very good amount of people, a bit of a following, we can then add the ads (for non-logged in users).  The right time to implement this is when it is more important to make more money than it is to attract new users.  I hope I'm making sense.-- Duke  Ruckley  18:35, 5 September 2007 (CDT)


 * MobyGames has had text-only product ads for a while now, but they offer logged-in users the ability to turn them off (it's not automatic). If it can be implemented without being incompatible with MediaWiki upgrades this would be a great way to maximise profits from visitors and minimise annoying regular contributors.
 * Even if that's not a viable solution, what we're proposing is nothing compared to the ridiculous level of product placement other gaming sites have—right now GameFAQs' main page has two banner ads, a square ad, and a themed background all imploring me to pre-order Medal of Honor: Airborne. Sometimes these ad themes even have mouse-over sounds/animations and other annoyances. IGN and GameSpy are little better, mixing animated ads with reminders about their tantalising "subscriber extras". GarrettTalk 05:32, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

I can do further experimenting with the Amazon sidebar, but before the concept can be actually implemented echelon will need to set up the referrer ID that the sales will be credited to. GarrettTalk 05:32, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Thoughts on Template:Helpwanted
Consider this a kind of marketing move.

A lot of visitors see our site and find stubs for the games that they would consider to be popular. As such, they may look at our site with discontent. Instead, we should turn this into a positive reaction: a chance for the visitor to show their appreciation for the game by contributing. By making that emotional connection with the visitor, we may gain a higher percentage of core contributors and maintainers. (Those not limited to a few casual edits.) Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if motivation of this sort leads to more guides being completed.

Note that we shouldn't (and wouldn't want to) overuse this template. If the visitor sees it on every incomplete guide, they may quickly consider the template a standard boilerplate, and hence they may loose that original emotional queue.

If we do choose to implement a template of this sort, I would endeavor to make it even more personalized and tailored to each guide. Perhaps we could insert a few parameters into it, so that on the Halo 2 guide, it stresses that Master Chief would hate to see the guide fail. If that doesn't establish a connection with the visitor, I don't know what will.

Thoughts? echelontalk 01:10, 5 September 2007 (CDT)


 * It's a good start. Wikipedia has varying cleanup/stub/etc templates for articles that need each respective one. It's better than just having stub and cleanup on everything. -- 01:21, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * OK. How about implementing this for all guides which are popular for the main consoles (look on the consoles' pages for the list), but aren't at completion stage 4? -- 14:25, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * No. I think that this should be used sparingly and that the credential for use is based on active users for the guide.  For example, you might have one or more people working hard on a guide, and then they post this on it knowing they need more help.  If we just say, these "need help" it acts as a stub template notification.  There has to be more than "please do this because it's empty."  -- 15:15, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Peer Review Project
For a while now I've been wanting to copy Wikipedia's Peer Review system over here. Now that the Featured Article system has been put in place I think it's even more important. So over the next few days I plan on starting the frame work of the system/project but I'm not sure where I should put it. Per the conversation here there does not appear to be consensus. I was planning on putting it at WikiProject Peer Review or Peer Review. For the record Wikipedia has it located at  Peer review . Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? -Argash 05:52, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Personally, I don't see the point of this. It adds a needless extra layer of complication on top of processes that we already have in place.  We're not Wikipedia, we have far less need for the level of bureaucracy that they have established.  Procyon (Talk) 09:18, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with Procyon; while I know what you want to achieve, simply copying Wikipedia's practices is not going to be beneficial for StrategyWiki — they're designed to operate on a much larger scale than what we need, and are needlessly bureaucratic, as Proc says. I think the rule we've got at the moment that a featured guide must be completely proofread by people who know what they're doing will suffice for the time being. -- 11:22, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think that an exact copy would be the best way your right. And even still it would certainly not be manditory.  It would be a way for people who've put alot of time into a guide to request another persons opinion on what should be done next.  Simply put it would stream line the asking process and open it up so anyone can help pr a guide. -Argash 16:45, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just post a new section here in CI, and if someone is interested, they'll look it over. Right now, we just want as much content as possible, and since the sysop-to-active non sysop ratio is ridiculously high, things get cleaned up etc. on a minor scale to begin with. The less bureaucratic processes we have, the better. -- 16:59, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

I think that the point being made, in this case, is that we are still a close and tight-knit community that is very much hands on. There isn't much that goes on that is beyond our attention or goes unnoticed. I think WP's contributors are a much broader spectrum of users, and so much is taking place there, that they need those kinds of magnets to draw certain people's attention to issues that need it. Fortunately, we haven't reached that point, and hopefully we never truly will. Procyon (Talk) 20:22, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * For reference. we have started these off at Category:StrategyWiki projects. -- Prod (Talk) 10:06, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

What's happened
In IE6 the bottom of the page has been really messed up, the logos are everywhere and images are in the wrong place, there's also a dark blue bar at the bottom of the page, it's like someone's messed up the skin. I tried a ctrl and f5 but it hasn't helped. Is there anything that can be done (apart from the obvious)?--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 13:02, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Me and DrBob are working on cleaning up some of the CSS/JS on the site (ok, it's mostly DrBob :P). Please note any problems here (or talk to DB on IRC directly) and they will be fixed asap. -- Prod (Talk) 13:21, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My watchlist is not working. O_O is it related to this?--IsaacGS 13:39, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * shakes his magic 8-ball* - Yes. Please add to the following list. -- Prod (Talk) 13:50, 9 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Anonymous users couldn't access site
 * Images at bottom mixed around for IE6
 * Can't access Special:Watchlist (blank page)
 * I use Firefox and everything works fine. But when I load up IE6 or IE6 Tab in Firefox, all I get is a blank screen on every stradegywiki page with nothing but one of the various "please donate" messages at the top of the page. -- Takiten 13:53, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, that one should be fixed, try purging your cache (the ie cache). -- Prod (Talk) 13:56, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just to say,transparency in IE6 is now working but the images are still messed up :)--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:36, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm probably not going to be able to fix this for a little while, as school's started up again, so I've got no time on my hands (and booting up Windows to test in IE isn't the quickest of tasks). If the only things still messed up are the images at the bottom, I think people can live with it for a while, can't they? -- 16:51, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just to note, another problem is the completion stage icon is messed up on the main page of a guide, it gets stretched.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions)
 * And the transparency doesn't work when you look at the image on media.strategywiki.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:23, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It won't, because the JS which fixes transparency in IE isn't run when you look at images directly (i.e. on media.strategywiki.org). -- 11:03, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Wikipedia's embedded ogg files
Is it just me, or are these inline/embeded ogg files new to wikipedia? Maybe it's just standing out since I'm a recent Linux-convert, but I don't recall stumbling over these before.

If it's possible to upload these files and they work well in Windows and IE, I would like to seriously consider the possibility of beginning to host gameplay videos on StrategyWiki. Another possibility would be for FLV files. We could easily build our own MediaWiki FLV player extension--I could get right to it, actually. echelontalk 22:40, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think I just answered my own question . I'll get to work on this in the morning, if you guys approve. echelontalk 22:40, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Does it have to be Flash? That means I can't easily play the files (no Flash on 64-bit Linux), and it's not an open-source technology. How about just embedded ogg files, as long as MW can thumbnail them? (Haven't spent any time researching this, so I'm prepared to be flamed.) -- 01:05, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Open source really shouldn't matter as long as it is easily accessible (and free money-wise) to get. I do agree that we should shy away from file types that do not cater to the entirety of our potential audience however, so we should stick with things that multiple operating systems (such as 64-bit Linux) can support. -- 15:03, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * We are aiming for a completely open-source approach (or at least, we were; has anything changed?) similarly to Wikipedia. Ogg/Theora embedded video should be supported on most platforms, as they'll all have an embedded video player of some description, and ogg codecs get everywhere (although vanilla Windows users will probably have to install the codec). I'm open to suggestions for other video container/codec combinations, though. -- 15:38, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * That Wikipedia template is a very recent change. Thanks to the long-awaited media back-end rewrite, MediaWiki 1.11a and newer can generate thumbnails from Theora videos on the fly with the same functionality as the image formats. The actual embedding is done via OggHandler, released earlier this month. It uses the Cortado Java applet to embed the video (the player even includes a codec, meaning no separate installation is necessary).
 * Unfortunately the extension only loads the player after you click the button, whereas Flash and DivX solutions have the player fully embedded in a "sleep" state. To play a video using this extension you first have to wait for AJAX to retrieve the player code, and then wait again for the Java runtime to initialise!
 * What I'm worried about is the negative effect on the site's reception. Even in my short time fiddling with the extension I'd far prefer to take the time to open the file in WMP or VLC rather than put up with OggHandler. The extension feels sluggish and outdated, and it will disappoint anyone used to the fluidity of YouTube or GameTrailers; many people will be much less likely to directly watch StrategyWiki's videos in the future, which defeats the very purpose of embedding them! To make matters worse the play button looks just like Windows Media Player 11's&mdash;so much like it that I decided the new media back-end had detected WMP and would use it to seamlessly embed the video. Unfortunately, this idea was smashed the moment Java started loading...
 * Statistically, the percentage of visitors using 64-bit Linux (and any other OSes that can't install Flash) will always very, very small; they can simply download VLC Player or the like and then click through to the FLV to watch it. It would be a simple matter to have the "no Flash" error text provide a link straight to the FLV.
 * Theora is a nice format in and of itself, but I don't think it's a good idea to annoy a sizeable percentage of our target audience just to maintain open source fidelity. If we are going to have videos uploaded here embedding is a must, and to me this nasty AJAX+Java solution doesn't cut it; I am strongly opposed to this extension in its current state, and this means that I'm also strongly opposed to using Theora here unless a better embeddable player can be found. GarrettTalk 03:43, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

ZeldaWiki partnership
Recently, the head guy at ZeldaWiki left a message on echelon's talk page regarding the exchanges of links. Browsing through ZeldaWiki, I've noticed that they've held up their end of our deal by linking to us on the game pages, but we, as of yet, have not really upheld our end (the only place I really found them were two in LttP). After a brief discussion on GoldenChaos's talk page, it was decided to bring it up here, so that's what I'm doing.

Pretty much, this "request" is broken up into two parts, namely, what we should link and how often we should link it. As for what, I think that characters and enemies should definitely be linked to ZeldaWiki, and perhaps items as well. Now, for how often, I'm thinking that the very first mention of the character/enemy/item/whatever on the page should be linked (much like our Bulbapedia partnership). Due to the immense amount of time since the partnership began, I wish to get started on this as soon as possible, so please leave your opinions/views/comments below. -- 17:22, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think this would be a great collaboration of the month and we should definitely get started right away.-- Duke Ruckley Talk 20:39, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * A simple "zw" template, similar to the bp template we have should do for most of the links, and the "For more information..." box on the front page of Zelda guides that was being discussed on echelon's talk page could be dealt with by a "zeldawiki" template, similar to wikipedia. -- 11:52, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I spoke about this on Ech's talk page, but I'll describe what our initial agreement sounded like: I would put "FAQ/Walkthrough on SW" on boss pages and game pages, and SW would implement a system similar to what goes on with SW and Bulbapedia. That was as far as we really got in our discussion - everything else was just chitter-chatter. So, yeah - you hit it right on the dot, Bob. Anything I can do to help get this collaboration going, just let me know! If it's making links and whatnot, I'm happy to help start this project out. --GoldenChaos 09:36, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I've gone ahead and created zw and zeldawiki (I hope you don't mind that I stole your logo for the second template; it can be changed if you want a different one used), which can now be used. zw is basically a wrapper for an interwiki link, and at the moment provides no extra functionality, but using it means we have the option of extending the template in future. -- 10:26, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * That's great, Bob! I have a transparent version of the logo, if you want to use that, or a version of the logo that isn't transparent but also doesn't have the extraneous blue background (aka a larger version of the famicon, which I'm not even sure is displaying right now - it's not showing up in my browser for some reason). I'll upload one of the two later. It'll look neater than the current version. --GoldenChaos 20:49, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Excuse me... that's... DrBob. Procyon (Talk) 20:53, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My appologies to dear Doctor. ;) Anyways, I've tried out the nifty template on a small section for the heck of it. I'm not sure how much you guys intent to wikify these articles. I was conservative in what I linked. If it were interwiki style, links would obviously be all over the place. Given the fact that it's a walkthrough, I don't know how much you guys intend to link or if you only intend to link each item/person/etc's reference only on their first entry in the walkthrough. Anyway: ALttP: Eastern Palace - PoI's
 * Actually, he's just Dr, not a doctor :P. I would go with only linking the important items (or when they are first obtained). I would suggest links under the name field on the items pages for each game. I'm a bit worried about sending people to another site in the middle of a guide with minimal backlinkability, but the information is good over there.  What will the purpose of the Zeldawiki be? -- Prod (Talk) 23:43, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The "Dr" often confuses people. ;-) Zeldawiki is to be used on the main pages of Zelda guides, to link to Zelda Wiki's page on the game more clearly. -- 03:48, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think the current version's OK, but do what you will. :-) -- 03:48, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with Prod in that perhaps only on the items page do we link to ZeldaWiki (but then link to the items page in the guide). Besides, the parts where it's like [[Image:Zelda ALttP item Mushroom.png]]  just looks really weird having a pic before and after the link. As for zeldawiki, We need to work on that logo a bit before actually putting it up (right now it looks plain ugly with the blue-ish box just around the image and the image not being vertically centered). -- 10:02, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The reason I asked about the box version is because their game coverage seems to be minimal on most games. They have far more info relating to characters, items, and backstory. I think we might want to put their info on enemies and character pages as well. -- Prod (Talk) 14:41, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Question about linking outside of StrategyWiki. Is there a way to make the links to ZeldaWiki (and any other partnership site or even any outside link) open in a new window or tab?  That would eliminate the problem with having people stray from our site to another while allowing for more links to the partner sites.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 20:28, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Well they can just right click on the link and say open new window/tab... You can't open new tabs with HTML but you can open windows by adding target="_blank" inside of an  tag. -- 00:16, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
 * You can also do it via js (I have some js that works on another wiki), but many people don't like new tabs/windows being forced upon them. -- 15:04, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

Slightly O.T., but speaking of Zelda, I revised the way that the entire first game's Overworld was explained, and tried to make it clearer and easier to follow. Procyon (Talk) 15:44, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

Links
Ok so we need to link to them when regarding: Hm. I actually can't think of anything else... This policy is of course superceded by references to strategy. Anyone else have anything? -- 11:49, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Names (Bosses, Characters, Locations)

Anyone have anything to add? -- 03:27, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Not really, but I don't see the point in doing it just yet, seeing as you can't even view 99% of their pages now. Once their server gets fixed, then we can start adding them in. -- 20:11, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My view is that this has to be divided into two "types".

-- Prod (Talk) 23:43, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Non-Zelda games which have Zelda associations
 * If it has characters from the game (SSBB) then add a See also for each character
 * Zelda games
 * On the characters/items/locations pages, link the header names to zeldawiki
 * If for things like locations we don't have a page listing all of them, link the first occurrence in the walkthrough to them.

Tooltip text for Help Link
If you place your mouse over the help link on the side of the page, the tooltip text of "The place to find out about Wikipedia" instead of referencing StrategyWiki. --Cgsguy2 07:46, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Fixed. It's located in MediaWiki:Common.js so you may have to purge your cache (ctrl+f5 on firefox) to get it to work. -- Prod (Talk) 08:02, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

Template Policies
Alright, here's another thing we can debate upon... I'm thinking that we should name all of our game-specific templates to be in the format of Template:Game_Name/Template_Name. Rather than Propylons it would be The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind/Propylons. Additionally, we would then categorise these templates into their own category such as "Category:Game_Name templates."

I also want to ask, are we still using the naming policy where category names start captilized but aren't "titles?" What I mean is, if we do this is the word "templates" in the category going to be capitalized or not? Since most of you would agree that there isn't enough policy information for its own page, don't you think we need a miscellaneus policy page where all the little nuances can be listed? I really need these when thinking about doing stuff like we are now (if we decide now, things in the future are easier to get going). -- 00:32, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * That's the way all the MapleStory templates are. I'd like a game-specific category for templates.--IsaacGS 01:07, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * They should already have names which include the game name (or an abbreviation of it), and should already be categorised in Category:Guide-specific templates; I don't see any pressing need to create per-game categories for templates, unless that game has a huge number of custom templates. I would like people to still use sentence-case titles. I don't think we should have a "miscellaneous" policy page; it should be possible to integrate all the "little nuances" into the proper pages. -- 01:36, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Well then, where would we list "sentence-case titles?" -- 01:58, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd be against this as a policy, because games like The Bizarre Adventures of Woodruff and the Schnibble would have gigantic templates. If we must have a policy, it should go along with what our image policy is, as long as we can easily tell which game it's from (and preferably have a link to the main page of the game) it should be fine. -- Prod (Talk) 20:33, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I am tolerant of game acronyms. If we allow them, it looks like you would support this.  -- 18:27, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Votes

 * For
 * 18:27, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Against requiring full name, as long as game is easily figured out it's fine (such as ZTP) -- 21:44, 27 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Against
 * I'm against voting.... We go for consensus, not a mere vote. As long as noone come forward with major objections, it's settled. -- Prod (Talk) 22:43, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Wii Classic Controller buttons
I notice there don't seem to be any button images available for the Wii Classic Controller. These are needed both for Wii games that are Classic Controller-compatible (such as Resident Evil 4, Mortal Kombat: Armageddon, and Super Smash Bros. Brawl), and for Virtual Console games that have individual control schemes (such as Nintendo 64 games). Wanderer 22:14, 5 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Unfortunately, our usual graphic artist is unavailable currently. Anyone up for some artistic endeavors? -- Prod (Talk) 22:20, 5 October 2007 (CDT)

More templating
You may have noticed that I made a complete pig's ear of cleaning up the CN, FN and HN this morning; the job queue's currently up at 46000, and guides will probably look a bit shabby for the next couple of days, but that can't be helped. They all still (just about) work, and the styling for the CN, FN and HN is now all in Common.css. However, that's not the main subject of this thread. I want to get people's opinions on having a new "ToC" template, which would be put on the main page of a guide, and replace the current mess we have:

Table of Contents
It would mean there's less to go wrong when someone messes up a guide, and would potentially allow us to do fancy stuff to the main page ToCs of all guides in the future (although I can't really think of anything which would be useful). This isn't something I think we urgently or desperately need, but it can't hurt. As such, I propose a lazy migration (if we go ahead with it), similarly to how we're transitioning the release dates. -- 05:56, 7 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Go for it. -- 09:34, 7 October 2007 (CDT)
 * OK. I've created it as ToC. Just put that into the main page of guides instead of the markup above, and all will be fine. It takes no parameters. -- 14:55, 7 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Along with this change the Continue Nav no longer needs the |game parameter. User:Auto Prod Bot is working on this, but anyone who wants to can help. -- Prod (Talk) 12:09, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Achievements
I would've brought this up on the talk page for the achievements project, but nothing much seems to be happening there. Anyway, I downloaded and played Team Fortress 2 this morning, and noticed that Valve have introduced an achievements system to it. Since Valve have also just introduced the new Steam Community stuff, I'm pretty sure they'll start rolling achievements out to other games, and aggregating all the data in the Steam Community. At the moment, I believe Category:Achievements only caters for Xbox achievements, so I propose that we move all the pages in it to a new "Xbox 360 achievements" category (correct me if there's a problem here), and have that as a subcategory of Category:Achievements. We'd then introduce new categories for other achievements systems, such as that on Steam. This should increase the scope of the achievements project, and hopefully give it more to do. :-) -- 11:03, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * From the description on the Category:Achievements page, it seems that we'll need cats for Category:Xbox 360 achievements, Category:Xbox Live Arcade achievements, Category:Games for Windows achievements, and Category:Steam achievements. The question is, which of these have centralized listings?  -- Prod (Talk) 12:16, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I've just played Portal, and I can confirm that it also uses Steam achievements, so it's pretty certain that more games will start using them. I think we should go ahead with this. :-) -- 13:03, 10 October 2007 (CDT)
 * For games on multi platforms, say Xbox 360 and Windows, we would have to create two separate achievement pages? or could we just add an extra column for those points? Provided they are the same achievements.. --Laviot 20:39, 10 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah there's no need for separate pages. At most you would just create another table on the page, then separate them with tier 2 headings for easy navigation with  enabled.  Like you said, it will probably work out to just add another column, and then maybe where you explain the achievement you can list the differences if there are any. -- 22:22, 10 October 2007 (CDT)
 * This has been implemented. :-) -- 12:26, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

Online distribution
Speaking of Steam, it's probably about time we started differentiating between hardware systems and online distribution. I propose we have a new "Online distributors" category, which is a subcat of Category:Systems, and which contains the current online distributors (GameTap, PlayStation Network and Xbox Live Arcade), plus any new ones such as Steam. It's not really a major change, but I want to get some feedback on the naming, since I think it could probably do with improving. -- 11:11, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I think Online distrobutor sounds fine; it's better than "Video Game Portal" or something like that. What about Wii virtual console? -- 11:29, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think we need to get into detail about how the games are distributed (the |media parameter is enough). However, Wii Virtual Console is treated as a separate system from the Wii, so we could treat Steam as a system.  However, that would mean that games available only through Steam (ie. not on cd/dvd) would not be in Category:Windows. -- Prod (Talk) 12:19, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Category:PC doesn't have games in it despite them being commonly known as "PC games", and Category:Windows already has a Vista disambig; it's not too much of a stretch to have Steam-exclusive releases also only in their specific category. The message could be made bigger (like Category:MS-DOS's DOSBox notice) to increase visibility. GarrettTalk 15:20, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Agreed. -- 01:28, 10 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I've created Category:Steam, put it in Category:Systems, and populated it with the first Steam games I could find. If anyone notices a Steam game I've missed (there'll be hundreds), could they please add it? :-) -- 14:53, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

Problem with category
I want to change the category in Medal of Honor: Frontline to Category:2015 (Company) but the 2015 cat is still there, Is it a template that is doing this or me?-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 12:05, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * You should be using Category:2015. Why did you create the "2015 (Company)" category? -- 12:13, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * It was marked for renamiong by Prod because it will conflict with the date.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 14:46, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Despite the fact that problems with this will only surface in 7 years (:-P), he's right. You should name the new category "2015 (company)", though (note the lowercase "c"). Thanks. -- 01:26, 10 October 2007 (CDT)

Notification of online users
Is there any way we could see if a user is or is not online? It would be nice if we could. --Myth (talk) 15:44, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * No there isn't, and I don't think it would be a good idea. If you want to see if a sysop is online, at least one of us is idling in IRC at any given moment (generally... there are a few times where it'll be completely empty). Otherwise, just leave a message on a talk page. -- 19:53, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * There is a way on wikiepdia, after a bit of searching, i found ithere, can we use this here?-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 11:12, 10 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Possibly, but it would have to be adapted to fit in BlueCloud as well, and since it's javascript, some people will be unable to use it. As it is though, I'm still leaning towards the "bad idea anyway" side, and that isn't going to change. While it's a nice feature in forums, it isn't so much in wikis. -- 15:20, 10 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Agreed with Ryan. -- 15:46, 10 October 2007 (CDT)


 * Well what makes this different than a forum? I mean we talk about adding forums anyways, and it WOULD be useful. -- 15:03, 12 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, say we do have this... how would it be implemented as a nearly accurate way of showing onlineness? The way the one works in the link Rocky gave depends entirely on user input to change the status -- not very reliable and too much work at the hands of most users (myself included, I am NOT going to be using that method to toggle my online status). So, can you come up with anything better? Also, a wiki is very different from a forum, as you've stated yourself. After all, why would we talk about implementing a forum if a forum and a wiki are pretty much the same thing already? It just makes no sense. Forums are for chatting to other people in a semi-organized fashion. Wikis are for presenting information in an organized fashion. Chatting and presenting information are two wholly separate things. Finally, please list three different reasons why adding in an online indicator would be useful. I sure can't think of three, so good luck with that. -- 15:48, 12 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I've been curious about this subject, I just never really got around to asking about it. From what it sounds like, the online indicator from Wikipedia would be a drag to use. No one, including myself, would be willing to put that much effort into an indicator of whether you're online or not. While I would like to have some sort of indication, it wouldn't really bother me if we didn't. Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 19:06, 15 October 2007 (CDT)
 * There is also a bot that will update the status based on activity, maybe we could use that or the one that's replacing it. link-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 01:44, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

Why would we do that? It's a waste of resources and energy for some people. If we're going to do it, we have to do it through code so it's automated without having it mandated by edits. Rather than waste our own efforts and focus on something like this, why don't we just make a suggestion for a mediawiki feature? -- 02:41, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * There's some extensions here, here, here here and [Extension:UserLoginLogoutLog here], most of these don't look that good really but we may be able to make some of them work.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 03:23, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah that's what I'm talking about, except I think an actual mediawiki feature would be better (like, being able to set it in user preferences). LastLoginTime looks really good.  The only problem is whether or not the use of cookies enables the time to change.  If it does, then we have a decent solution.  -- 03:48, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Only thing is it isn't made by a MW developer.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 10:30, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Still no, those extensions look pointless (and aren't official), so I would never recommend they get installed. Plus, what is the point in this? I truly don't see a point in adding this in. If you manage to pester a MW dev to write a stable extension for this, good for you, but it's still an emphatic "no" from me. -- 16:14, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

Copyvio in Okami?
All of the information on Okami/Characters is copied word-for-word out of the game's instruction manual. It even says so at the top of the page. Is this a violation of copyright? New User 20:06, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes. It needs to be marked as such, and then re-written and integrated into more useful information (I haven't looked at it).  If it's factual, then we can have it.  If it's a story, or background, it needs to be reworded.  -- 00:39, 10 October 2007 (CDT)

They say immitation is the greatest form of flattery...
...I just think it sucks. The wiki at Shoryuken.com (which is over-ridden with ad-bots) stole our fighting move icons without crediting Blendmaster at all. See this page :P Sucks... Procyon (Talk) 15:38, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I can has GFDL violation? At least he apologized... -- 16:15, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Until they license themselves as GFDL I'm not saying it's ok; but yeah, I hope you explained to them that they can put them back up if the wiki goes that way... -- 00:55, 12 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh yeah I keep forgetting that you don't have to be licensed that way... But if they do like Creative Commons, can they use GFDL pics if credited? It seems like they should be able too...  -- 00:57, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

Settlers III
Hi! Can somebody provide fair use images for The Settlers III (of the items and buildings at least; I can make map screenshots myself, I hope) and please work a little over the things I'm writing to make it meet some quality standards? --Best thanks, Proto 20:20, 12 October 2007 (CDT)
 * What you've done so far looks quite good, actually. The only thing I could suggest is for the mission walkthroughs to be written in continuous prose, rather than a series of bullet points. :-) -- 00:56, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
 * DB, they are nowhere near done. Proto: don't worry about "fair use" for the various cut out images.  If you need editing done to screenshots, you can upload them to SW and then leave me a message on my talk page with the image names and what specifically needs to be cut out.  I'll handle the editing, re-uploading and deletion of the full screenshots.  Also, you might want to start a todo list on the discussion page for any other contributors (use  ).  -- 04:08, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Desperate times call for desperate measures
StrategyWiki has enjoyed a steady increase in popularity and traffic, and we are grateful for every user's support. However, the little server which once adequately met our meager needs is now hobbling along on its knees, trying to keep up with the demand. As this site is run out-of-pocket by essentially one man, the site owner, the time has come to do whatever is necessary to improve the situation and make ends meet. The site administrators (non-contributing staff) have agreed that by hosting pop-up ads for a limited amount of time, it may be possible to drum up the money for new server in a matter of weeks, at which time the ads would immediately cease. As this is a somewhat dire situation, the decision to run these ads will not be put to a discussion so as not to divide the staff in any way, and will only take effect for as long as necessary and not a day longer. The administrators wish to apologize to any users that they will potentially offend or annoy and wish to assure everyone that this would not be taking place unless it was absolutely necessary. With a new server, we will be capable of supporting a larger community, and provide our viewers with enough speed and bandwidth for the foreseeable future. Having said all of this, and with no desire to guilt anyone into using it, I'd like to point out the PayPal donation button to the left. As you may know, StrategyWiki has made it possible for fans of our site to financially support the site on a strictly voluntary basis. Your personal support of StrategyWiki can help lessen the time that we need to run the ads for, but it is in no way necessary for you to contribute unless you absolutely would like to and are able to at this time. The administrators of this site thank you whole-heartedly for your continued support during this period, and anxiously await the day when we can provide you with higher quality performance than you are currently experiencing. Procyon (Talk) 06:11, 14 October 2007 (CDT)


 * Ok, to me, there are three types of "popup" ads, so could you please clarify which one(s) we would be implementing? The three types (in my perspective) are:
 * The new window type (a la Tribalfusion). I generally find these to be the least effective, as most people I know just close said window without actually looking at the ad/clicking on it, and you can set them to pop up in the background, under the active window.
 * The in-your-face type. These (may) temporarily deactivate the rest of the page unless you click on the close thingy on them. They generally appear right in the middle of the page, hence the in-your-face. I'd judge these to be the most effective of the three, and second-most annoying.
 * The redirect type. These use javascript to redirect the page you are currently visiting to another site. These are by far the most annoying, as hitting back will just load the same javascript again. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not implement this type.
 * Procyon, as for your comment about visibility, I'm thinking of making another box high-ish up on the main page explaining the situation and the cause, and telling people that by donating, the ads will get removed sooner once we actually implement these ads. -- 10:55, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, a better idea just came to me. What about MediaWiki:Sitenotice? That's the message that appears on the top of every page, with a [dismiss] link for logged in users. Here's the notice I was thinking of:

Due to increased amount of popularity and traffic, StrategyWiki needs a new server. Therefore, we have implemented pop up ads for a short period of time until enough money for a new server has been raised. If you wish to get rid of the ads quicker, please donate so that funds may be raised even faster! [ read more ]


 * 11:19, 14 October 2007 (CDT)


 * When Nick ran this idea by me I told him hell no. What do you think popup ads will do for the public perception of StrategyWiki? Granted, while we *need* a new server, this can't be the only way to raise approximately $1,500 - $2,500. :( echelontalk 14:26, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Perhaps a better option is AuctionAds (Nick also introduced me to this). We could dynamically control the keywords, instead of some lame Google algorithm that gets stuff wrong 75% of the time. example echelontalk 15:09, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Wow... I thought that when Procyon wrote this, it was already in agreement with everyone in the higher-upness, guess not :P. Anyway, I still think it would be a good idea to make use of MediaWiki:Sitenotice, with a donate link and one of those progress bars like the WikiMedia foundation has, it might get some more people to donate. As for Auction Ads, it looks good, but we really have three options to consider if we go that route, outlined below
 * Use AuctionAds
 * Stick with AdSense
 * Try out the Amazon referrals
 * Since we have limited sidebar space, we really can only go with one of the three (unless we make use of the left sidebar as well), so we'll need to decide which one would be best for us. -- 20:51, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I think we can support all three, to an extent. ActionAds at the bottom of each page, Adsense where it currently is, and Amazon links in the infoboxes/HNs. Popup blockers would probably render those mostly useless, those flash ones which cover your screen are extremely annoying, and the redirect ones just take people away from our content.  Also, would it be possible to move that PayPal button down a bit, so that it doesn't overlap that line? Seems somewhat out of place to me.  -- Prod (Talk) 21:13, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah I agree with site notice, and was going to suggest it earlier (but I had to work). The potential drawback to ads are the hardasses (most of us) that will be repelled from the site (Ech's concern).  From my standpoint, I like ads because I know what they do and good ads are actually beneficial to me (for instance an ad about five years ago helped my love of metal grow even more).  Therefore, I'm definitely for this (I know this topic isn't about this) and I believe it won't be detrimental in the long run (especially after getting a new server).  I don't know about BlueCloud, but I assume for CrimsonNight the paypal button is located just below the line underneath Help in the left nav.  From the looks of it, the button should fit between that line and the image below it...  -- 21:16, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry about the confusion guys. When Nick ran it past me, he made it seem that either a) echelon had signed off on the idea or b) he had echelon's approval to implement any idea with full support.  So my impression was the same as Skizzerz's (Skizzerz'z?)  I asked what could I do, should I make an announcement?  He said go for it, so I did.  Apologies all around.  Procyon (Talk) 21:26, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh good lord... possessive + my nick = downright impossible >_< (to pronounce, spell it Skizzerz's I guess, so just stick w/ Ryan's or something). Anyway, I totally forgot about the donate button since I have css that hides it, but IIRC it could stand to be moved from its current position. And Procyon, don't worry about it. Tricksey little Nickses can be deceptive sometimes ;). -- 22:18, 14 October 2007 (CDT)


 * When this goes into effect, I think we should throw this up on the PayPal page so that people can see how far along we are and be more interested in how their money is contributing to the goal:

$0.00  Fundraiser 2007 http://media.strategywiki.org/images/2/2e/Paypal_Donate_button.gif $5,000
 * -- 18:58, 15 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I am objected to the usage of any sort of pop-up advertisement. That would quickly get on my nerves (And I'm sure everyone else's.) As for any of the other ad options, where exactly would they go? Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 19:12, 15 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe we could sacrifice the content in one of the four cells on the main page (such as "most promising guide") in order to stick a non-popup ad on the main page. Then once we get the new server we can put it back. - Koweja 22:46, 15 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I never see ads/pop-ups 'cause I have Firefox...so I don't care :/. I do hope we can raise the money though. --Myth (talk) 23:12, 15 October 2007 (CDT)

Woah woah woahhh. I just saw/skimmed over this thread. Procy I told you that Brandon said no to the pop-up ads. I was joking about it too. I'm sorry about the confusion. When I talked to you I was talking in a more general "We need money, we need to test some things out" way. I don't know if you guys have discussed it but trying Auction Ads for a while to see how it would turn out or at least adjusting the Google Ads to a better placement. I'd be against Amazon stuff because it pays out so very little and they only pay out ever quarter which is ungodly slow. The fact of the matter is A. Google Ads aren't going to get clicks because they aren't targetted at all (why would I buy *gamename* walkthrough when I'm at this site?) and it's so far to the side. B. They pay out VERY little (see .01-.05) a click since the ads are so random and gaming isn't a high paying niche.

We should test by putting an adsense square or maybe a leaderboard up someplaces instead of on the side. If only for a little bit to see how it does. We should also test Auction Ads. I'm very confused as to why we aren't testing right now. It just seems like a bunch of procrastination when this could be the thing that saves this site. Otherwise it's going to keep going slow until eventually it can't handle the traffic and it will get shut down. I think the site randomly being DOWN for hours and days is a lot worse of an image than some ads that are more towards the middle of the screen. --ConfusedSoul 14:53, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
 * It says 10% and paid monthly. I dunno about you, but games are NOT a niche market. Ads aren't what make money, sales are (same with AuctionAds I'd assume, their site is info-lite). -- Prod (Talk) 15:45, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The profit margin definitely sounds good. With a bit of prettying, my Amazon template is probably good to go. Many games are multi-platform, so Amazon's automated equivalent might take up too much space. GarrettTalk 16:48, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The KEY word there is UP to 10%. A more realistic estimate is 5%.  So then someone would have to come to strategywiki.  Look up a guide for a game.  REALIZE they don't have that game.  Click the amazon link.  Have an amazon account or get one.  Buy game.  After all that we make $1-2.  We can test it, it just doesn't seem like a realistic income stream to me.  But again we need to be testing this stuff to see how well it works.  We can talk and talk and talk about what will or won't work, but we have NO idea until we try it.  And I'm kind of getting disenchanted by how we aren't doing anything.  --ConfusedSoul 23:22, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Complaining doesn't solve anything. Until echelon registers and sets up the accounts, there nothing we can do.  After that, anyone with server access can set up the page to display the ads.  What we need to decide on is layout, so do you agree with my suggestions above, or have a better idea? -- Prod (Talk) 23:42, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I think it'd make more sense for the actual game or any game related paraphenelia to show up instead of a generic banner on the side. I don't know the way Amazon has its system setup but I know there's a relatively easy way to set that up.  --ConfusedSoul 01:47, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The best part about those amazon links (I want them permanant now) is that I can shop on amazon and give SW money at the same time xD -- 02:36, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Here's the nice thing about Amazon... It doesn't hurt us to have it.  In fact, the template that Garrett created looked pretty good and wasn't obtrusive or anything.  While it would probably not bring enough money to buy a new server, it might be worth it to try out anyway.  Plus, does it have to be games they buy?  Why not books and stuff...  There are a few books out there for Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft, Halo, etc.  Maybe we can say, "Hey, if you are looking at buying a book (any book) from Amazon, do it through us!  You'll be supporting your favorite place for guides!"-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 07:50, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
 * If they click on it they'll get our cookie and so whatever they buy within some time (or unless they get someone else's cookie which overdubs ours) will give SW some commission.

So it sounds like a good idea, but is it legal? Are we "taking advantage" of it? Otherwise, when can we get started? Ech? -- 01:31, 18 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Um...yes. There's no reason why it wouldn't be legal.  Echelon doesn't care he's too busy learning how to manipulate images with programming words.  --ConfusedSoul 21:57, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * That was completely unnecessary CS. Echelon does care.  Unfortunately he, like many of us, have more pressing problems to deal with in real life.  Procyon (Talk) 09:18, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Cut the bickering before it begins. Anyways, if you haven't read the agreement that we would be making with Amazon, then you have no certainty that they are making any rules that would affect how we deal with the links and such.  I should go find that document...  -- 13:04, 22 October 2007 (CDT)

Ads - Section 1
I just added AuctionAds and WidgetBucks per the suggestion of Nick. '''THIS IS A TEST ONLY. IT WILL BE TEMPORARY.''' Nick says WidgetBucks will net us 10 - 30x what AdSense does, and he also suggested testing AuctionAds. We'll see how this goes for a day. Also, let me know your thoughts about how intrusive you think these are... echelontalk 23:52, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't like the way auctionads looks and they don't really preform well based on my personal tests. They may fare better on here.  I KNOW widgetbucks will do better than adsense.  We'll have to see.  There's no reason to not test.  If these work anywhere close to what I've gotten on my sites then we could put SW on a top of the line server that would last us a VERY long time. --ConfusedSoul 00:37, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The AuctionAds box is ugly and doesn't have anything relevant to the page being looked at; Google AdSense targeting improves once the pages have been indexed by the GoogleBot, but from what I've seen of AuctionAds in the past I'm not too convinced that they have a comparable system. WidgetBucks, however, is very nice. It's nicely presented, only subtly animated, and has a nice selection of (predetermined?) deals rather than the random tripe that AuctionAds throws at visitors. $3-$6 CPM is a very good rate, too. GarrettTalk 01:39, 24 October 2007 (CDT)


 * Wow I didn't even notice AuctionAds until I was looking for it. I probably looked at three or four pages without even noticing it; however the right nav is like BAM.  I suggested to Garrett that we move it down by like 20-50px because on pages like the watchlist, there's no toolbox items yet the toolbox header is still there; thus I thought that the ads were part of the toolbox and it just kind of confused me (considering it says stuff like Nintendo 64, etc.).  -- 02:04, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm not certain I understand the point of having WidgetBucks advertise gaming systems to visitors to this site who, quite presumably, already have consoles and aren't on the market for one. Are we really going to end up selling an Xbox 360 to a visitor?  Or a Dreamcast, N64, or GBA for that matter?  Isn't there a way to make it more software oriented? Procyon (Talk) 09:23, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with the above people, I like the Widget one better (although I don't think the AuctionAds is that ugly). By the way, I don't know if this was just me, but for some reason when I first saw the main page I didn't see the AuctionAds box, just a white space at the top. I can see it fine now that I've went to a different page and came back. Baejung92 13:49, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I like the Widgetbucks one better than auctionads. Not only does it present itself better with basic animation and nice, rounded corners, but the auctionads one messes up the top on top of looking absolutely ugly. -- 15:52, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm cool with the Widgetbucks, but can't stand the auctionads. Either remove the auction ads from the top, or remove them altogether because, for some reason, they are so ugly up there they piss me off. Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 16:04, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I think the auctionads one looks pretty awful but the one on the right seems fine - you don't really notice it tucked away over there. --RamonSalazar 18:44, 24 October 2007 (CDT)

Um, is the right end of the AuctionAds thing supposed to be cut off by the toolbox, or is it just me again? Baejung92 21:34, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The results are in! After one day of running both AuctionAds and WidgetBucks, we have a clear winner. WidgetBucks estimates that we made $18.00 in ONE DAY. This is over three times what we make with AdSense. AuctionAds, on the other hand, requires someone actually make a purchase to earn any money--not surprisingly, we made $0.00. I think we'll put AdSense in place of AuctionAds and see how much we make with AdSense and WidgetBucks together. (Perhaps $25.00/day?) This is certainly positive... echelontalk 00:01, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm on IE right now and the adsense is too big and it's making a scrollbar on the bottom appear. Also it'd look a lot better without a border. --
 * Ok, the AdSense either needs to be shrunk down a bit, or moved elsewhere other than the top. Even though it looks better than the auctionads box, it's still taking up too much horizontal space (thus overflowing into the toolbox). -- 10:02, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, by the time I finally turned off my Adblock Plus ad-on and saw what the ads looked like, I've gotta say the one on the right looks really good. --Myth (talk) 13:45, 5 November 2007 (CST)

QR Code
I've added the QR Image to the Main Page/WIP. What do you think? -- Prod (Talk) 13:25, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Looks good, but it could use a "what is this?" link below the image so people who aren't familiar with QR codes can read up on them. -- 15:30, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Signatures
I think we should follow wikipedia's example with this policy, especially signature templates. -- Prod (Talk) 21:46, 19 October 2007 (CDT)
 * And I don't. I don't see any valid points in there that really refer to us. Granted, some people are worried about the influx of images, but it doesn't cause all that much of a drain on resources for the few people that actually have them. As for templating, I'm actually more for it than making sigs take up tons of wiki code. Yes, you could say "just reduce your sig's size", but I represent my sig however I want to. As for vandalism attacks, that's why every aspect of my signature is protected (the image, the templates it uses, etc.). If any of these things become a major problem, then I'll consider placing restrictions on signatures, but it so far has not been a problem. -- 16:28, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * This was one of the things the devs stepped in to say that it could affect performance, so I think it was a significant drain. You can do whatever you want, but that's what rules are for, otherwise this site would be full of vandals.  Not everyone has the benefit of protecting all the required pages.  Sigs don't need images anywayz, they're just there to show who you are and give access to your page. -- Prod (Talk) 16:45, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, currently we don't have any guidelines/policies on signatures, so based off this debate, it might be a good time to make one. Here are the following points that I believe should be illustrated in such a policy:
 * Use of Images:
 * No more than 2 per signature
 * No animated gifs
 * No overly distracting/offensive images
 * Should have transparency
 * As an added nicety, images should be wrapped in a span class of "sigimage" so people can disable signature images in their personal CSS if they wish not to see them.
 * If they are linked (elsewhere then the image page), the link targets should be appropriate as well, and should be wrapped in a class of "plainlinks".
 * If you wish to protect images in your sig from a vandal attack, notify an admin so they may be protected.
 * Use of Templating:
 * Long signatures should be in template format or, if not possible, shortened.
 * Templates used in signatures may be reported to an admin so they may be protected from vandal attacks.
 * Other conditions:
 * Must contain a non-image link to user page
 * May contain a link to user talk page
 * All links (external and internal) must be appropriate
 * Only sign on talk pages at the end of the comment
 * Cannot contain line breaks, large images, etc. that interrupt the flow of text and indenting.
 * Of course, this needs polishing and input from other people, but how's that? -- 17:10, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd propose the following two changes:
 * Use of images: not allowed
 * Use of Templating: not allowed
 * -- Prod (Talk) 17:19, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I can see where you're going with that, and I'm just against changing so many signatures so drastically without having hard statistical evidence to back up my claims (about server stress and distractions, etc.). If echelon or Dan would be so kind as to perhaps discover how much stress these templates are causing, I'll consider removal of them (if it's a problem). As for images, I've added in a "sigimage" class to mine, so you can just put .sigimage { display: none; } in your personal css to hide it. If images start to become a problem, however, I'll support you in disallowing them. Also, if vandalising signature templates becomes a problem, I'll support disallowing those as well. -- 17:35, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

Sonic Robo Blast 2, out of scope?
I'm sure that a fan game like this shouldn't be covered on StrategyWiki. It only meets one of the criteria, being the fact that it's a computer game. Same thing goes for Mario Adventure.
 * I'm not so sure; they're two quite popular fan-made games (I believe). While I certainly wouldn't want the site crawling in guides for every game mod under the sun, I don't see any harm in having such guides. I'll wait and see what others have to say. --DrBob (talk) 06:07, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * If they are mods to games, they should go as part of that game and shouldn't be given their own game. -- Prod (Talk) 10:07, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * That should be done for small mods, but I think total conversion mods – where the mod is a new game in its own right, and only uses the engine of the modded game – should get their own guide. --DrBob (talk) 10:16, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I have to agree with DrBob. There are some pretty fun mods out there that are games in and of their own right. echelontalk 15:27, 28 October 2007 (CDT)

Template:Wikipedia a little strange
The link to the word 'Wikipedia' in Template:Wikipedia actually links to rather than the expected. Is there a particularly good reason for this? It just seems a little strange. --Pelago 15:12, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Works as expected for me. Looks like Rocky fixed it while I wasn't looking :). -- Prod (Talk) 15:26, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 * This is because we originally didn't have a Wikipedia interwiki; we did have one for Wikibooks, though, so I just routed it through that. GarrettTalk 17:27, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

Engine Cats
We have an infobox that allows the engine to be listed, but what about category pages for such engines? -- 20:15, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
 * What's the point? Is anyone seriously going to be looking for games based on the engine they use? --DrBob (talk) 06:42, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Potentially, yes. If we had a cat page for them though, the page would give information on the engine and all the games that use it - which I think would be pretty nifty to be able to see.  -- 17:37, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
 * True. I'd tentatively support this then, but I'm wary of over-categorisation. That said, I can say with 90% certainty that nobody clicks the categories at the bottom of a page, so we could add as many as we liked. :-) --DrBob (talk) 19:11, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I think this is a cool category to add. echelontalk 23:17, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll go ahead and start implementing it, since nobody's raised any objections. --DrBob (talk) 03:13, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I've created Category:Engines, and created a category for teh best engine evar. If everyone's still OK with it, I'll go ahead and add the games to it properly in a few hours. --DrBob (talk) 08:18, 24 October 2007 (CDT)

Modes and bot support
So far, we have MMOG, multiplayer and single player for modes. I propose that we add "Multiplayer with bots" and "Co-operative" to the list, and categorise games as such. Previously, I've wanted to eradicate the multiplayer category (since just about every game uses it), but I've now realised that nobody really cares how many categories a game's in, and so it's OK to keep it. What does everyone else think? --DrBob (talk) 03:12, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I think specific types of play should be implemented, so we can break down each type more accurately into groupings. I got this idea from Wikipedia when I saw on an RTS game's infobox - one of the modes listed had something to do with campaigns or skirmishes - something different from simply "Single player" since Single player could actually mean online play, by yourself (considering originally multiplayer was defined as co-op, simultaneus, or versus on the same console).  Now that example is a little messy, but maybe something like, Single player campaign, could be a "specific category" in comparison.  As well, we could have something like "Turn based multiplayer" like that of Super Mario Bros.'s 2 player mode.  Whatcha think boys (oh sorry Froglet)?!  -- 04:33, 24 October 2007 (CDT)

PC system requirements
I've created a pcreq template for sole use in the |requirements parameter of infobox, which allows PC game requirements to be given in a pretty, graphical, and rather-more-helpful-than-before manner. It comes with all the associated baggage. Thoughts? --DrBob (talk) 09:03, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The green on red is a little bit of an eyesore... I wonder if maybe we should change Progress bar to be different colors?  It's not too bad for longer bars but for something shorter it just messes with my eyes.  I personally think a light and dark blue would be good (especially because our primary color for the site is blue).  Another option is to make the red and green a little more pale.  What do you all think?--
 * I'd plump for a paler red/green combination, if someone could come up with one. We'd also need to change the text colour to make sure it's still legible if we were to change the background colours. --DrBob (talk) 10:36, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm not quite sure how to go about changing it, or I'd play around with it. We could use the same colors as the yes and no templates...  "90FF90" for green and "ff9090" for red.  Another good green is "00FF7F" --
 * Remember, color coding must be done via skin CSS... Nice job again DB. -- 20:30, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * One thing, when the HDD goes over 1000 it goes into decimals for me.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 13:42, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, because it's being displayed in GiB. You should be multiplying the original number in (GiB) by 1024 to get the value to put into the template, though, rather than multiplying by 1000. There are not 1000MiB in a GiB! --DrBob (talk) 16:24, 25 October 2007 (CDT)

Some entries (e.g. Command & Conquer: Generals) stipulate a particular version of Mac OS as the minimum, and the same goes for Windows games that won't run on earlier than Windows 2000 or whatever. Should there be an OS parameter? Since Linux doesn't really have clear version compatibility changes (to my knowledge) I guess this would only require "win" and "mac" parameters. GarrettTalk 01:45, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I'll add win, osx and tux parameters (there are version incompatibilities on Linux; most older proprietary Linux games are compiled for older versions of glibc, and won't run properly on Linux installations with newer versions of glibc). Rocky, did you have to go and apply it to every article before it was completely ready? I might not've said so, but by the number of articles you've left with bits of the previous requirements text remaining, I would've thought it would make sense to stop and get the template improved first. :-( Also, when you see a game requiring an "Internet connection", I think it makes sense to look at the game, and just use a net value appropriate to the game type and age. Typically, MMOGs will require broadband (net=256), and older games will require dialup (net=56).
 * In reply to NMH's points on the template's talk page, I don't think it makes sense to add a parameter specifically for web browsers; games requiring a web browser/specific version of a browser are few and far between, and it's just as easily put into the extra parameter. I'm also against adding a sound card parameter, since it should be taken as given that just about all games will require a sound card, and I believe the ones which give special requirements for sound cards will – on the whole – work with any sound card anyway, since it's all done through DirectX or OpenAL. If a game truly does require stupid functionality on a sound card, that too can be put into the extra parameter.
 * Let me make it clear now that I don't want to see any text in infobox's requirements parameter outside of the pcreq template. Such text should either be put into the pcreq template in the proper parameter (or extra if appropriate), or just removed, since the non-concrete system requirements are fluff half of the time. --DrBob (talk) 05:27, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
 * It seems to have messed up with the 60GB hard drive on X-Plane.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 07:33, 27 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Fixed. --DrBob (talk) 17:09, 27 October 2007 (CDT)

MyCheats.com
Has anyone else seen this? http://www.mycheats.com/

It seems like a sexxier GameFaqs. A lot of it is wiki-style, but I guess everything you contribute is automatically copyrighted to the site owner. And it looks like its some subsidiary of 1UP.--ConfusedSoul 22:47, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, it's been around for a while, and it's owned by 1UP (in turn owned by Ziff Davis). All contributions become Ziff Davis' property ("You hereby grant ... to ZDH and its successors, assigns and licensees ... a fully-paid, royalty-free, irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide right and license..."). Its presentation is confusing. They mix traditional non-editable FAQs in with "Superguides" (their equivalent of our "one game, one guide" concept). They've converted all their official guides to wiki format, but unfortunately they've also included empty guides like this one for every game in their vast database (rather than them being nonexistent until someone starts editing), which makes it fairly difficult to find a Superguide that actually has content. Since they still allow non-editable guides to be uploaded many contributors haven't made the jump yet. GarrettTalk 23:44, 25 October 2007 (CDT)

Community Meeting
Remember, meeting this Saturday at 2 pm EST. I expect you all to be there. -- Prod (Talk) 23:29, 25 October 2007 (CDT)


 * My apologies Prod. I spoke with Echelon the other night, and as it was my responsibility to announce the meeting in a timely manner, and failed to do so, Echelon and I thought it might be easier to move the meeting back one week and give people more time.  This would be a one time exception to the "last Saturday of every month" rule.  Is everyone OK with that?  Or does anyone insist on the meeting being this weekend?  Procyon (Talk) 09:19, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I think it depends on who's available to come and what all do we have to discuss? Apart from a few new templates (which I don't think warrant online discussion beyond what we have here) the only change is the ads.  As there really isn't much to discuss over that (we need the ads, the only real discussion is about placement, which is minor, and longevity, which we can revisit at the next meeting) I think we can have it tomorrow as planned.  Are there any other topics people would like to suggest? -- Prod (Talk) 09:51, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I can't make it there at all tomorrow, so I'd be for postponing it. -- 10:22, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I absolutely won't be able to make it now, I have to head out and run some errands, emergency situation. I will be available next weekend if we all agree to meet then.  Procyon (Talk) 12:50, 27 October 2007 (CDT)
 * So did the meeting happen or was it postponed? I was unavailable all weekend, so I'm a bit out of the loop right now.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 12:47, 29 October 2007 (CDT)
 * It was postponed until next Saturday. --DrBob (talk) 12:52, 29 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I might not be able to make it then either, depending on how long it lasts (I have to leave 3:30 EST), so how long is this going to take? If it'll take longer than an hour and a half, what topics are being covered so we can arrange to take care of the important ones/ones that I want to input into first? -- 16:45, 29 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Might as well get an Agenda started... Feel free to edit away.  Procyon (Talk) 18:24, 29 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The meeting is underway. Please log on to the IRC if you are available.  Procyon (Talk) 13:14, 3 November 2007 (CDT)

Agenda

 * 1) Advetisements: placement, behavior, how long we keep them, etc.
 * 2) Template management (basically all of the work that DrBob and Prod have been up to)
 * 3) An update about DoubleJump

Titles: Proper versus Asthetic
So, after DB started the project for the castlevania image cleanup, I realized that categories can contain colons in their titles, and then I realized I had created several image categories (with images in them) named without colons. I did this because colons in the title are really annoying in the category titles (category:title: subtitle). Anyways, I know that we should be doing it grammatically, but what do you guys think, should we add that to the cleanup list? -- 04:05, 29 October 2007 (CDT)
 * If any of the categories need changing, let me know and I'll send my bot on it, just give me before and after names. I think we should just stick with the name of the game as it is on the main game page. -- Prod (Talk) 10:46, 29 October 2007 (CDT)

New Image Category?
Hey guys, I just uploaded an image that has no real place in any of the currently available categories: Image:Ijji G Symbol.png. It's used in a template that encompasses many games, and its main affiliation is with NHN; I guess I could place it in Company logos, since it's one of their symbols... Maybe Company Logos + Category:NHN images? -- 05:07, 30 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Category:Artwork would do… --DrBob (talk) 12:19, 30 October 2007 (CDT)

November Collab/Promising guides of the month
We need them assigned. I have some questions though, first how do we decide which collab gets assigned? Why one over the other? Date nominated? Second, how do we nominate promising guides? Or do we (sysops) just assign them on a case by case basis or is there a page to do so? I nominate Drift City for promising. -- 18:26, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
 * Nominating? You mean this? Baejung92 20:11, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll write up some guidelines over the weekend. For now, the PGotM is Command & Conquer: Generals and the CotM is Halo 2. If someone is able to do the writeups tonight that would be great. Otherwise, I'll take care of it tomorrow afternoon. -- Prod (Talk) 21:49, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

Category Intersection
I ran into a problem while creating my Gamecube portal page mockup. There's no way to list all pages that are in Category:Gamecube and Category:Stubs, or any other category intersection. The problem has been discussed in Wikipedia. They deal with it for their portal pages by making categories which are essentially category intersections, like Category:Chemistry stubs (intersection Category:Chemistry and Category:Stubs). However, manual category intersection isn't the only way. Somehow, Dynamic Page List has support to list pages that are in two or more specific categories. If we could custom make a category page to have just a DPL of two or more categories, we could have a working category intersection page, albeit a hacked together one. Does anyone else have any ideas on how to implement this in StrategyWiki? -- 12:11, 3 November 2007 (CDT)

The advertisements!
The ads seem to slow the site down quite a lot--Firefox lags for me every time I load a page on SW. The status bar says "Waiting for images.widgetbucks.com..." for about six or seven seconds and then everything is alright again.

This is incredibly frustrating: I came to a page to do something or read something, not wait for an ad to load. Although I recognize that we needs ads to stay alive, I feel that maybe we could do better and get something that doesn't bog users down a ton or at least try to optimize them so I can click around while they load. My connection is pretty fast, so I can only imagine (with fear) what it does to slower people. I'd utilize adblock, but that only stops them from displaying, not loading.

Does anyone else have this issue, or is it just me? -- towers  http://media.strategywiki.org/images/a/a8/Towers_trex.gif 00:36, 17 November 2007 (CST)

The other thing I forgot to say was that on especially long pages (such as this one) the strain is so intense that I am asked if I want to stop the script from running--though I think that is a different problem. -- towers  http://media.strategywiki.org/images/a/a8/Towers_trex.gif 00:38, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 * Try using NoScript instead of AdBlock, it actually prevents the script tags from running to begin with. Of course, you have to re-enable the js for strategywiki.org for it to work, but you won't have the ads. As for changing the widget one, that's probably not going to happen as that's the one that seems to be generating the most amount of money. -- 12:10, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 * The only pages I really have a problem with are this one (took more than a minute to load) and the main page. But I don't think the ads have to do with it much for me, because shorter pages like Staff Lounge load only in a few seconds.
 * The reason the Main Page takes forever to load is because of the two DynamicPageLists on it, notsomuch the advertisements. Also, the server has fast spots and slow spots, so I guess luck has a bit in this as well. -- 12:26, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 * Alright, I had hoped this wasn't the case (both the ads being awesome and also not really their fault) so I'll just look into NoScript and see what I can do. Thanks guys. -- towers  http://media.strategywiki.org/images/a/a8/Towers_trex.gif 12:31, 17 November 2007 (CST)


 * Yeah I get the same problem, but only in IE7, not FireFox. -- 20:17, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 * NoScript stops it, but it does pop a bar up into my browser every damned time I load a page. I am still figuring out if it is actually worth it. -- towers  http://media.strategywiki.org/images/a/a8/Towers_trex.gif 00:09, 18 November 2007 (CST)

Super Mario and Supreme Commander wikis
I've been meaning to suggest a partnership with Super Mario Wiki for a while. It's a good wiki, and has detailed information on quite a lot of Mario stuff, laid out in a nice way. Does anyone who knows more about Mario (etc.) want to approach them, or shall I?

Additionally, I stumbled across Supreme Commander Wiki the other day, and I think it's got just about the right amount of information to make a decent level 4 guide if we merged it in. They average about 3 edits a day, so I think we might have a chance of an agreed merger if we approached them. Any takers?

I realise by looking through Wikia's list of gaming wikis there's a lot of wikis to look at as regards merging, so we might also want to take a good look through it sometime and see if we can pick up the stragglers. --DrBob (talk) 14:30, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 * In regards to the Super Mario Wiki, go for it! I failed at offering mergers last time, so I probably won't do it (unless I really need to), but I do know quite a bit about Mario and friends, so if you need help with that sorta stuff, I'm on IRC fairly regularly :). As for the wikia wikis, I'd say go for those too. Of course, knowing Wikia, the "merger" would involve importing the content here, but leaving the content there as well (you might be able to get away with a text link to us on the sitenotice, but I know Wikia likes to try to keep everything there). However, if you can influence them that it's a good idea (more contributors, etc.), then go for it. -- 15:26, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 * I've already started using content from the Mythos Wiki but yeah a full "merger" would be nice. There's also http://www.mythoswiki.com but they aren't even licensed so I'll only be using that for raw data.  The Wikia Mythos wiki is funny because rather than gathering their own screenshots (only possible by using third party software) they have used ones from the Mythos site and just used brushes in photoshop to make them ugly xD -- 20:29, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 * I've just e-mailed one of the Supreme Commander Wiki admins, and I'll see if he replies sometime tonight. --DrBob (talk) 01:26, 20 November 2007 (CST)

Achievement lists
I've just created Achievements Header for use in standardising the appearance of achievement lists. It's closely modelled on Moves Header, and should be flexible enough for use across all three types of achievement list. An example of the new template in action is Gears of War/Achievements. The header bar colour can be changed if people don't like the colour I copied from existing achievement lists; it's just there to differentiate achievement lists from other boring tables. :-) Any thoughts? If people don't mind it, it can be rolled out to the other achievement lists. --DrBob (talk) 15:23, 19 November 2007 (CST)