StrategyWiki:Staff lounge

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MultipleUpload
The author has fixed the file overwriting bug in his extension, so are we ready to use this again? — najzere T 15:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Subtoc Content Headers
Mock version of my idea in the works on my sandbox.
 * What I would like to do
 * 1) Choose an arbitrary number (i.e. four rows of content) to establish the point at which guide ToC's should require modular summarization (this applies to large guides like MMORPGs).
 * 2) Create a standard set of templates and a usage policy for using and implementing modular, summarized sections of ToCs.
 * 3) Implement this on MapleStory/Table of Contents.


 * A summary of related thoughts
 * 1) Many individual MapleStory pages are exceeding the "warning" limit; in some cases by 3x or more (over 100KB).
 * 2) The MapleStory guide is our primary traffic generator for the website, so it should be used to set the precedent.
 * 3) The MapleStory Table of Contents has the capacity to be expanded more efficiently to better organize topics.
 * 4) Recent edits made by suggest that we should break down certain page headers into more accessible, expanded topics (he focused on Party Quests).
 * 5) I want to use Subtoc-like templates to minimize the default ToC size, and allow us to expand topics without worrying about spacing issues.
 * 6) We have never used Subtoc for a topic (i.e. for a column header); only expansions that act like H1 headers.


 * Why I posted it here
 * 1) Our community meetings are where we get things done, and that is a rare event that I have trouble attending.
 * 2) We used to decide things on the Community Portal talk page, but no longer use that page.
 * 3) Our forums are rarely patrolled or concluded upon because they are separate from the wiki, and I know all of the admins have this on their watch page.
 * 4) We can use this space to better organize our thoughts using templates if need be.

-- 06:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've always thought we could improve our organization a lot by including some helpful JavaScript, but the problem has always been that not everyone has it turned on. Recently I've been trying to find some figures on how many people really surf with JS turned off, but apparently it's not the most reliable thing to track. Most numbers I've seen haven't been any higher than 5%, which seems pretty small to me. Although I wouldn't want to make anything inaccessible to non-JS users, I don't want 95% of viewers to suffer for them either.


 * The workaround on other wikis is to switch display of collapsible elements to none with JS so that it will just be fully expanded for non-JS viewers. This wasn't necessary in the Header Nav so far, because there was a link to the ToC if someone couldn't get at it with JS. However, by putting hidden content in the ToC itself, even a link isn't going to be helpful. Someone with JS off will have to edit the page to get at a guidepage link, or use the PrefixIndex. The problem with collapsing the elements on page load, is that with slower browsers you're still going to see that huge list at the beginning and you'll have to wait for it to "shrink back up". It's just kind of ugly watching pages adjust themselves while you wait.


 * Personally, I'm in favor of using more JavaScript, since I feel like most people use it and if they don't, they can always turn it on for our site. If it doesn't interfere too much with certain bots and RSS (if we even have one), would it be too annoying for something server-side to send viewers to a splash page letting them know we use JS elements and how to turn it on in the major browsers? That would help people that have turned it off in the past on someone's advice, but don't know how to turn it back on. On the other hand, would it be too difficult to maintain and load a separate non-JS table of contents for those people? Lastly, if collapsible/expandable elements do get used in the ToC, I suggest we modify the look a bit to differentiate between actual subtocs and normal content expansions. — najzere T 15:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm all for supporting this. I'm not sure of the best possible implementation, but almost anything could be helpful.-- 20:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We have been stymied by visual limitations every time we begin to add "too much" content. I disagree with Najzere in that I don't believe JS is an issue for readers. Those who disable JS know how to enable it, and will be aware of how websites look. We wouldn't be the first website to have content that requires JS interpretation. I used to disable JS so I wouldn't have to see advertisements - when you do this, it changes all websites significantly. -- 00:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I used Heroes of Might and Magic V as a testing ground for collapsible elements. I used collapsible tables to solve some of the awkward whitespace issues we were having with subtoc templates in side-by-side columns. Used with the tables is the toctable template, which adds the "collapsible" class and collapses the tables if they're not on the main page or the Table of Contents page. As you can see on the main game page, the Table of Contents is fully expanded, as is the case with the Table of Contents page. If you look on the one guide page, you can see the tables are collapsed in the Header and Footer navs.

Obviously there are some style issues, like changing the colors and making the top header row different from the specific section header row beneath. Also, the tables aren't collapsing on the expansion pack pages for some reason. Although this wasn't my intention, I'm undecided on whether that's a good thing or not. Anyway, let's discuss it, and if we can work out functionality issues, maybe we can come up with a CSS class to tie in the look. — najzere T 17:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I think we only need one page to be fully expanded for non-JavaScript users, so I modified the toctable template to only expand tables on the Table of Contents page. Now the main pages aren't so long. — najzere T 18:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So far I like what I see. Unfortunately I don't have much to add to the discussion, keeping it collapsed on the main page definitely seems to help, and serves the purpose of the elements as I originally understood it. Colors are always a tough decision, but once we have some CSS in place individuals can override them. -- 20:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well it's all controlled with CSS so that's not a problem. We just need to tweak it to fit in with the look of current ToCs for BlueCloud. -- 20:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Made an update to use the toc-table class and simplified the toctable usage: {| Now it's more like how prettytable is used. The look is less table-like now, so unless everyone decides they like all the lines and boxes like a table, it would be easier to use the existing NavFrame classes with content lists split up by col templates like the rest of the ToC. Still need input on colors and style if anyone else has some ideas. — najzere T 23:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've set the width to maximize itself to whatever it is placed into (like divs). This will also center the header for the table. I briefly experimented with aligning the content of the cells to the top, but have had to manually place that in the tables. I also upgraded the size of the headings to match a normal ToC heading (H2). -- 00:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The table width and vertical alignment are set in the toc-table class, so it won't be necessary to add those if we end up using the table. Also in the class, the size of headings is set at 1.2em (the equivalent of h3), so it can be adjusted there as well. If you like the plain look for the contents and a simple heading bar, the NavFrame would probably be easier, and the show/hide tag would float right instead of pushing the heading over. If you want to add the CSS to your personal style sheets you can see how it looks. — najzere T 00:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So, as far as I understand the "toc-table" class hasn't been defined yet (I can't find it in any of the CSS sheets, and it isn't loaded when I view a page using toctable). If I'm wrong can you point me to the page? I've added a toctable example to my sandbox for comparisons. -- 01:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Here you go. — najzere T 04:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah that's no fun. You should have just hardcoded it into the template. I had no idea you were holding out on us. -- 07:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The template only styles the table, so to get to header and normal cell styles, you'd have to turn the whole table into a template or put individual styles directly into the table like you did with the Might and Magic V ToC. Working with the NavFrame class on your Sandbox page, I ran into some difficulties: you can't use h2 or h3 in the header, since they are divs of their own which push the show/hide toggle down off the header bar, and also the show/hide toggle itself is sized relatively (as "smaller"), which is why they're so large in the Sandbox. Lastly, I think the collapsible elements are too big at H2 level, since they're about as big as the subtocs, which separate a whole different game. — najzere T 15:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you put it in the template you should be able to modify any part of the table... I like the NavFrame. Maybe we should raise Subtoc to H1, as H2 refers to something within an H1 (H1 = article or game, h2 = topic). -- 19:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, well discussion kind of petered out on this, but I recall NMH saying somewhere that the divs like spoiler would be better than a table, and I agree. We generally try not to use tables for non-tabular content, and with divs you can use col like we already do in the ToC, so it fits better. Additionally, I made the tochide template, which requires no extra CSS to implement, which is nice. About moving the H2 content to H1, well the title of the page itself (Table of Contents, or whatever page it's transcluded onto) already has the H1 level heading under which everything else is supposed to fall, so I don't like using it for sub content. So in an effort to get a usable template out, I say we just go with this collapsible div template for its simplicity and so we don't have to change anything else. If that's all right with everyone, then we can just figure out any style/color/naming issues that may be left and start implementing it where desired. Example on the Phantom Dust guide. — najzere T 18:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Help with Bloody Roar 3
I've been trying to find out information for it, but I'm not sure which is correct. Wikipedia shows it's for 3 consoles, but Gamefaqs lists it only for a console and arcade. Which is right? The article on here has just a copy and paste from Wikipedia right now. RobJ1981 05:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The answer lies in the article itself: Its successor, Bloody Roar: Primal Fury was created for the Nintendo GameCube and was later ported to the Xbox as Bloody Roar Extreme. Wikipedia is treating these as the same game, whereas here we list fighting game remixes separately. GarrettTalk 07:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have recently been comparing Bloody Roar 3 to Bloody Roar: Primal Fury for the GC. The graphics and game modes are completely different. The only thing they share is move lists I think. They should probably all exist separately.--Zaiqukaj 18:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

How about an article creation drive?
I personally think the site needs more of the current popular games and new releases. Plus the latest releases for download services (Virtual Console, Xbox Live Arcade) that feature older games. If everyone makes a few it could help attract people to make guides for the games. There is plenty of sites out there that show the current best sellers, and latest releases... so finding them wouldn't be hard to do. RobJ1981 04:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. I've been going down the list on the requested guides page, as well as my personal lists, and the SW:Guide completion pages. -- 05:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I just created The Sims 3: World Adventures which releases in November, so is that what you mean by new releases (or future releases)? 08:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's what we want Melon. The point is to make the start of a guide so when visitors come, they don't see an empty website. -- 16:01, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a list of some notable recently released and upcoming games that need articles here: A Boy and His Blob (2009), Endless Ocean 2, The Beatles: Rock Band, Fat Princess, MagnaCarta II, Shadow Complex and Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II. If anyone wants to create those, it would help. RobJ1981 02:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * We should also have games that have been appearing on our advertisements. I.e. Urban Rivals. -- 08:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's from the Nintendo side that could become articles in the near future and I agree. Need for Speed: Nitro, The Grinder, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles and "The Ghostbusters". Johnnyauau2000 04:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

We could start a project portal for this sort of thing... After heading to PAX I ran into many games that have already been released that I didn't know about, and I saw many to come. I'll be adding more when I have time.

-- 08:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * All Points Bulletin (APB)
 * Alteil
 * Assassin's Creed II
 * Battlefield: Bad Company 2 (March 2, 2010)
 * Brink (very innovative and dynamic FPS)
 * Brutal Legend
 * CarnyVale: Showtime (indie XBLA)
 * Closure
 * Contra: ReBirth (Contra -ReBirth-, Contra Rebirth; WiiWare; May 12, 2009)
 * Dante's Inferno (very fun, similar to Devil May Cry/God of War)
 * Darkest of Days (civil war/possibly other time zones FPS)
 * Darksiders (3D Action Adventure Hack and Slash;
 * Dark Void (Capcom)
 * Dead Space: Extraction
 * Deca Sports 2 (Hudson)
 * Diner Dash (Hudson TBA)
 * Dofus (free to play tactical MMORPG)
 * Dragon Age: Origins
 * Dragon Sky (MMORPG; Aeria Games)
 * Dungeon Fighter (U.S. localization/beta of Dungeon & Fighter)
 * Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited
 * Elemental: War Of Magic
 * Fairytale Fights (Playlogic)
 * Fate/Unlimited Codes (Capcom PSP fighting)
 * Faunasphere (FTP MMOG)
 * Forza Motorsport 3 (October 23rd, 2009)
 * Frobot (2010)
 * Global Agenda
 * God of War III (2010; God of War 3)
 * Hello Kitty Online (HKO; Aeria Games, Sanrio Digital)
 * Jumpgate Evolution
 * Katamari Forever (September 22nd, 2009)
 * Last Chaos (MMORPG; Aeria Games)
 * League of Legends (LoL; Defense of the Ancients clone)
 * Lode Runner (XBLA; by Tozai Games)
 * Lord of the Rings Online: Mines of Moria
 * Lord of the Rings Online: Siege of Mirkwood
 * Machinarium (Indie)
 * Magna Carta 2 (MagnaCartaII, MagnaCarta2, Magna Carta II; Xbox 360)
 * Mass Effect 2
 * Megaten (Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine Online, Shin Megami Tensei Imagine Online; MMORPG; Aeria Games)
 * Military Madness: Nectaris (Hudson)
 * Muramasa: The Demon Blade (Wii, fun)
 * Naruto Shippuden: Legends: Akatsuki Rising (Naruto Shippuden Legends Akatsuki Rising; PSP)
 * Need For Speed: Shift
 * Nostalgia
 * Osmos (Windows/Puzzle; I don't think this was at PAX 09, but it's notable)
 * Pokémon Rumble (WiiWare; June 16, 2009)
 * Puzzle Bloom (FTP indie game)
 * Ratchet & Clank Future: A Crack in Time
 * Runes of Magic
 * R-Type: Dimensions (XBLA; by Tozai Games)
 * Sam & Max Save the World
 * Scrap Metal (XBLA; 2010)
 * Shaiya (MMORPG; Aeria Games)
 * Sins: Diplomacy (a.k.a. Diplomacy or Sins of a Solar Empire: Diplomacy)
 * Splatterhouse (coming 2010)
 * Spelunker (2009) (PSN; by Tozai Games)
 * Splosion Man (XBLA; Twisted Pixel)
 * Spyborgs (Wii; Capcom; September 22, 2009)
 * Strong Bad's Cool Game For Attractive People
 * Tag: The Power of Paint (Indie FPS puzzle game)
 * Tales of Monkey Island
 * Tekken 6
 * Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Smash-Up (Wii/PS2; September 22, 2009)
 * The Beatles: Rock Band
 * The Saboteur (3rd/FPS with cool wall scaling ability)
 * Tick Tock (Facebook App by Ubisoft)
 * Torchlight (Single player release October 27th, 2009)
 * TwelveSky2 (MMORPG; Aeria Games)
 * Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
 * Wallace and Gromit's Grand Adventure
 * What is Bothering Carl? (interactive book, children 3+)
 * Wolf Team (FPS; Aeria Games)


 * You went to PAX NMH? Lucky :/ Anyways, a lot of these are big releases... I should be able to help with a stub here and there. With stuff from this summer's E3 and Blizzcon and such this should be a looong list. Bae  jung92  (talk) 00:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A few more that I found: Guitar Hero 5, Dungeon & Dragons online (one of the advertisements on the site, not sure if that's the full name or not), Mini Ninjas, Tornado Outbreak, Mega Man Star Force 3: Black Ace, Mega Man Star Force 3: Red Joker. I believe the Star Force 3 games are nearly identical with the exception of a few things. RobJ1981 07:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I already have the correct name for D&DO above, but that should be a redirect. -- 07:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Guide inclusion: Spelunky
Sigma_7 requested this guide in June, but never brought it up. This should be put to a vote.

Spelunky is a 2D, randomized platform adventure where the player plays a spelunker exploring the dangers of caverns (later in the game, I think the setting changes dramatically). Each time you play, the levels and challenges are different, which makes the game very unique and at times frustrating. It looks very similar to older clone games where you run around and try to collect treasure and avoid traps like falling rocks, but the addition of object interaction and destructible environments makes the game very different.
 * Summary of the game

The reason I'm not jumping into creating the guide is because it has been independently published through the developer's own website. As such, its notoriety is slight, but its popularity seems to be up there. It has a wikipedia page, and a bug reporting forum thread that spans 270 pages and almost a year of communication. I'd say it's obvious that the developer is dedicated to the game, and I've gone ahead and tested it out myself. It plays extremely well, has great sound, graphics, and physics. It's extremely responsive, fun, currently free, has a lot of replay value, and I am surprised to find out that it runs on the Game Maker engine.
 * My reasons for inclusion


 * Support
 * 23:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1)  najzere T 19:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1)  najzere T 23:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * It doesn't appear to meet any of the Scope guidelines: it's not produced by a recognized company, is not sold commercially, hasn't been rated, has no non-trivial mentions in published sources, and doesn't have a large player base. Why even bring this up when it's clearly not even a borderline case? If you want to have a guide for this game, let's change the Scope policy first. There are plenty of people who have lobbied for less strict inclusion rules, so let's just get a consensus and put this issue to rest already. — najzere T 23:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with both Naj and NMH on this. NMH, changing the scope would kill two birds with one stone; we would enable the inclusion of this guide, and also prevent having to generate exception cases every time we find a guide-worthy game, such as you have found.  Exception cases lead to users saying "Why your game and not my game?"  If you can, try to think of a way to modify the scope so that this game can be included.   Pro  cyon  00:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * * My rational at the was the Spelunky Wikia and the Wikipedia entry indicating at least some notability. Didn't find any non-trivial mainstream coverage, although some notable blogs such Destrucoid and Escapist have covered it.  Competing sites such as Gamespot are currently listing Spelunky with stub-level information.  In searching the competitor's site, I found exactly one review.  And yes, I do want reform for the scope to allow for a more clear-cut decisions that relies on more solid criteria, cause some people aren't sure if they should discretely create a guide for that Online Civ-clone.  Of course, since the initial post, I did find a competing wiki that focuses only on FAQs for Indie games.  --Sigma 7 01:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no way that we can rule out administrative restriction on this, but I think we should give people and games the benefit of the doubt and just amend the scope to include freeware games... especially seeing as how we are licensed under a free license. -- 01:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like this fits scope now. najzere T 19:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Copyrighted material - revision deletion
I propose that we make it mandatory to hide revisions that include copyrighted material (it must be verified or labeled by the submitter). Considering the massive amount of content some users decide to add, it is our responsibility to purge it from being publicly available, even if the resource was online to begin with. -- 08:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I seriously agree after what happen to me so I'll accept. I should be crying by now so I'll go along with it. Johnnyauau2000 08:32, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I agree. This is one of the standard reasons for hiding revisions anyway right? Bae  jung92  (talk) 16:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Should be added to the admin guide. — najzere T 16:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Call of Duty World at War.
While I wait for Modern Warfare to come out on Nintendo Wii, I'm now considering having World at War as part of "Collaberation of the Month". I'm totally hard pressed at how many pages went into the Table of Contents! Even if I can do it on my own, I'll have a headache after this. I don't want to force you editors to do it but with all those details about using weapons and multiplayer is something that would take a month to do. Please think before you answer because I can't show my mood onscreen but I am quite sad at the moment. If I was happy and the table of contents of World at War is not that blown out, maybe I can do it on my own. Johnnyauau2000 08:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In general, don't worry about taking on a guide by yourself or having everything filled out. This is a wiki, so anyone can add to and help out a guide at any time – there's no rush. For this specific game, you're welcome to nominate it for collaboration of the month, just follow the instructions on the CotM page. By the way, you should really find a way to make editing less stressful for yourself. I think this is something that most people do naturally, but contributing here should be fun! There's no pressure, no deadline, no one expects anything of you… just relax and do whatever you're comfortable with. Good luck, — najzere T 15:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well what can I say, wish me luck. I can't help how organized Modern Warfare is so I just wanna page homage to it. Not necessarily on editing but I could use that as a model. For "Collaberation", I'll give it a shot. Even if it fails, I'll might try again on occasions. Johnnyauau2000 15:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

External link captcha
I got captcha'd making Rage Racer/Age because it detected new external links. I don't think there were any in the page. I was logged in, using IE 8.0. screengrab - ✘ &#91;main · talk] 21:29, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The stub template contains external links to edit the page. Anyway, the captchas go away once you become autoconfirmed (account is 4+ days old and has 10+ edits). -- 23:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2.
I'm getting confused with those game titles. The first is Marvel: Ultimate Alliance with a colon and Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 without a colon. So is that the normal title? When I go down the list on the Wii game section, it's a jump in logic. Normally for example, Spiderman has a sequel so its called Spiderman 2. I don't know if it's their idea to take out the colon but it's ridiculous. I don't want to start an argument but I'll have to double check on gamesites to see if it's the name of the game. Johnnyauau2000 06:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Both games are listed in many places either way, so it's not really important as long as users can find the pages using either name.-- 20:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's "Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2" without a colon. But we have redirects for alternatives. -- 23:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Redirects? What do you mean by that? So if someone makes a mistake, it automatically goes to the correct page? Johnnyauau2000 10:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You may want to refresh your memory by reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect. I'm saying that Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 and alternatives like Marvel: Ultimate Alliance 2 will all go to the same place. That does not mean "if someone makes a mistake, it automatically goes to the correct page". -- 10:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Smileys
Anyone want to have smileys? We can upload a standard (free) set and use or something for spicing up talk pages. Not sure if this is a good idea, but it might be fun. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/smile.gif — najzere T 19:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's fine by me :D  Pro cyon  19:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yay, it's about time the main site followed in mibbit chat's footsteps :) Bae  jung92  (talk) 22:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What would the use of this be? They can't be used in guides, and the people who would bother typing out instead of :) on talk pages would be quite limited imo. If this is a straw poll, consider this as an oppose. -- 23:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They could be added to the edit tools to make it easier for ya. :P — najzere T 23:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ryan. Smileys aren't helpful to guides, so there isn't much point to them. Remember: we are here for video game guides, not posting smileys all over talk pages. RobJ1981 00:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I too am opposing (I bet no one ever expected me to even say those words). On think-up games wiki, there was a user who asked if we could have smileys there. I said no, though he uploaded the images anyway, and now they are never used anyway but just sit around in the unused images category. Using the good old-fashioned :) is a lot easier than typing in a template, as Skizzerz said, and on this wiki they look a bit out-of-place. 08:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No thank you. -- 10:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)