User talk:Bmuig

Welcome to StrategyWiki!
Hello Bmuig! Welcome to StrategyWiki. Thank you for your contributions. If you have any questions, just contact a sysop through their talk page or post on the staff lounge, and they'd be happy to help. If you need help editing, check the StrategyWiki Guide. If you have a question about the content on this wiki, you can check out our staff lounge page. If you want to ask questions or hang out in IRC, we're usually around. On the other hand, if you have ideas for StrategyWiki, bring them up on the community portal talk page. Please remember to sign your name on, and only on, talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (    ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field as this helps to document all of your hard work. Feel free to delete this message from your talk page if you like, or keep it for reference. Happy editing! -- 17:56, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Nice job
Hi Bmuig. I have to say, I was pretty impressed with your work on the AOF move list. You made a custom template, but you kept it in the style of the other move lists, so I think it worked really well. The individual character pages need to be established, but I can help you out with that. Are you interested in working on any other move lists? Obviously, we're lacking in the Neo Geo department at the moment. Let me know what you think. Thanks. Procyon (Talk) 11:19, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think the word you were looking for is thesis? What and where are you studying?  For your first wikipage, you did an amazing job.  Most people who have made a lot of wiki pages still have trouble figuring out how to set up templates like that, so it's very impressive.  Don't worry about time, this site isn't going anywhere, it will still be here when you finish more important work.  It's always fun to use this site as a way to take a break from more serious work :)  I don't have any suggestions for your page, you did it largely the way I would have.  We just have to make the respective character pages, and I've been kind of lazy about maintaining that.  But again, there's no rush.  Procyon (Talk) 14:05, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Hi Bmuig. Once again, an outstanding job.  The sort order thing is a very bad system that I was using to keep Category:Move lists sorted properly.  For AOF (which I just changed to A0SAOF), it breaks down like so:


 * A: To get AOF listed under the As
 * 0: To get AOF listed above the character pages,
 * S: The S is for SNK (C for Capcom, M for Midway, and N for Namco)
 * AOF: The abbreviation of the game.
 * Like I said, not a great system, but it works. I'm going to create the character pages for you right now. Procyon (Talk) 15:53, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Future games
Hi Bmuig. I know that you had plans for working on Art of Fighting 3, but I was hoping that you could take a look at Category:Wii_Virtual_Console and make whatever games are listed there as a priority as well, if you are interested in working on them. Thanks very much! Procyon (Talk) 09:45, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Awesome, you did a terrific job on Fatal Fury :) I don't know if you notice, but I have bee establishing the character pages for you, such as Move Lists/SNK/Andy, Move Lists/SNK/Joe, and Move Lists/SNK/Terry.  You are terrific at making these lists!  Procyon (Talk) 19:41, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

Responses

 * 1) You are free to change the completion stage of any guide that you work on, any time that you wish.  That's part of our be bold motto.  In the Header Nav for the front page, find the num=0 and change it to a 1 (or even a 2 if you like).  1 is for more than a stub, but not much.  2 is for a good amount of critical information filled in (like the move lists).  3 is for nearly complete and 4 is for very thorough.
 * 2) You are correct about the problem of the move lists.  All of the information does need to be created, and updated, and maintained twice.  There is a way around it, but it's actually more work than the way we do it now.  We would have to create Templates for every single character's moves in every single game.  Then the pages would just be lists of templates.  That's more of a resource drain on the database, so we settle for having to update two pages.  It's a bit unfortunate, but better than the alternative.
 * 3) I am currently out of the industry, but I did do cursory Artificial Intelligence when working at several studios.  I would be happy to help you as much as I can.  My knowledge of AI is probably not as in-depth as yours and I primarily only developed finite state machines.  But feel free to ask me anything that you would like, and I will do my best to answer you :)  Procyon (Talk) 18:04, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

Small optional request
Hi Bmuig. Once again, fabulous job with AOF3, and I'm delighted to see that you are working on KOF94 now. I had a request for you, and it's completely optional, you don't have to bother if you don't want to. But I noticed that your style does not include the use of which puts a  between the moves and the buttons. I usually use it as the very last part of the motion, before any of the buttons are mentioned. A lot of the other move lists use this, but you're not required to. I was just hoping that you would consider using it in the future. Thanks very much, and keep up the amazing work.

P.S. Prod and I are considering a big change to the way that the Move Lists are set up. It would address the problem that you pointed out about having to make changes to each list twice. It won't affect any of the work you are doing now, and will only slightly change the way you contribute moves in the future. I just wanted to let you know, and will tell you when the change takes place. Thanks!


 * You made a very good point about the plus. Maybe I should consider removing it from my lists?  I don't know...  I guess the thing that I liked about it was how it helped line up the lists visually.  I'll give it some thought.  Please feel free to edit and improve Template:cade.  It shouldn't be protected.  Let me know if you need any help.  Procyon (Talk) 20:01, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh, before you edit cade, please make sure that you have intimate knowledge of ParserFunctions, in particular #switch, as cade relies on it to work. If you need any help with this or would prefer someone else to add them in just in case, let either me or Procyon know and we'll help you/put it in for you. Thanks! -- 21:37, 27 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Looking at the various movelists the plus really helps for visual organization (creating a visual line). Also, even though someone might be confused that + doesn't determine the difference between sequential and simultaneus pressing, it's basically a given that its simultaneus to an extent (you press the button as you complete the motion, not AFTER, unless some game actually has that).  If there is a sequential delay we just say "Actions then... action."  See Move Lists/Capcom/CVS2 for examples.  -- 01:10, 28 September 2007 (CDT)
 * These aren't actually arcade buttons though are they? These images should go under their own template (possibly NeoGeo) rather than pushing them into cade.  If they are arcade games, then shouldn't they be using the already set up cade with the current images and not additional NeoGeo images? -- Prod (Talk) 07:43, 28 September 2007 (CDT)
 * No, Prod, it's cool. The Neo*Geo was both a home console, and an arcade cabinet hardware.  Since the console (at least, the non-CD version) was over $700, more people played it in the arcade than at home unless a console port was made to the SNES, Genesis, PSX, Saturn, etc.  GF takes this approach as well by listing every single Neo*Geo game under the Arcade category as well.  And seeing how the ABCD buttons are going to intermingle with the punch and kick buttons (you'll see when the KOF94 move list is complete), it an appropriate categorization. Procyon (Talk) 09:09, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Procyon and I set up the World Heroes guide with the new layout. Some of the pages still used images rather than cade so those might need to be changed. How do you like it? -- Prod (Talk) 11:26, 3 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The character specific lists are hidden because they aren't very important. However, they are there because they are subpages of the game and necessary.  I don't think they are redundant, since they are technically different pages.  If there is no "series" of games however, many of the links can probably be removed. -- Prod (Talk) 22:46, 5 October 2007 (CDT)

I've updated the categorization discussion and started it off. -- Prod (Talk) 12:36, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Neo Geo buttons
Hi Bmuig. You never need to apologize, and you never bother me, so please do not feel that way. Here are my personal thoughts on the matter. I did envision the lists looking the way that you described in the fourth point, with being used when  or  does not matter. There are two alternatives to this: There are pros and cons with both approaches.
 * 1) As you said, say  or  when it does not matter which one to use, or
 * 2) Use  instead of  and  instead of.

With #1, the move lists become larger in size (not a big deal), and people who don't play those games on the Neo-Geo, but rather the PlayStation 2 for example, won't always know what button A, B, C, or D is. The configuration screens usually say "Weak Punch", "Strong Punch", etc.

With #2, a Neo-Geo player now has to think about which button maps to Light Punch instead of knowing right away to use the A button. And as you said, it doesn't work at all for games like Art of Fighting or Real Bout Fatal Fury.

It sounds like the biggest concern that you have is about the look of the images. Indeed, looks very different than. But that can be fixed. Blendmaster could make a new version of A that looked like but was colored red instead, and could have a "A" where the "L" is. Some problems can be fixed simply by uploading new images.

Ultimately, I leave it up to you because I think that you are very talented, and understand fighting games very well. By the way, we are starting to reorganize the Move Lists a little bit. Take a look at Street Fighter II, and hit Edit to see what we did so far. Procyon (Talk) 15:28, 28 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I know what you mean, it seems odd to me to have the move lists on the intro page as well, but we did it to keep all of the Street Fighter II games in the same Table of Contents. Likewise, all of the Fatal Fury games, and all of the Art of Fighting games will share the same Table of Contents.


 * I plan to move the character pages as well, I just haven't gotten to that yet. The idea is that there will be one Blanka page for the Street Fighter II series, one Blanka page for the Street Fighter Alpha series, and so on.  So there will be one Terry Bogard page for the Fatal Fury series, one Terry Bogard page for the Real Bout series, and one Terry Bogard page for the King of Fighter series.  Actually, there may have to be many King of Fighter pages.  Like one for 95, 96, 97, and 98.  Another for 99, 2000, 2001, and 2002, and so on.  We'll have to see how it works out.


 * Unfortunately, I'm not really the best at designing buttons. Blendmaster is, but he hasn't been available to work on StrategyWiki for a while.  I could try to make something, but for holding a button, we usually just write "hold " or something.  (See this example.) Procyon (Talk) 17:25, 28 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Probably one of the reasons there is no "hold button" image is because the only game that heavily relies on button charges is Killer Instinct (and Killer Instinct 2). We only wanted to make as few images as necessary to keep it from getting confusing.  But if you feel it is necessary (e.g. it occurs in a majority of character's moves,) by all means, please add one. Procyon (Talk) 17:45, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Check out Street Fighter II/Characters/Ryu when you get a chance :) Procyon (Talk) 21:54, 28 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I just wanted to let you know that all of the Street Fighter Alpha character pages have been updated as well. Take a look at Street Fighter Alpha/Characters/Ryu to see what I mean.  This is just to give you some ideas in case you want to do something similar with the character pages that you're working on.  Procyon (Talk) 12:48, 9 October 2007 (CDT)


 * I have thought about doing that. I like the palette swap stuff too.  However, I consider that a Stage 3 project.  Stage 1 is writing the moves, Stage 2 is properly setting up the pages and getting basic info on the character pages.  I'd like to get all of the pages to Stage 2 before I worry about Stage 3 stuff (outfits, win poses, taunts, quotes, etc.)  But I agree that it's a great idea. Procyon (Talk) 13:07, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Move lists for King of Fighters series
It appears that you and myself, at least, are working on the King of Fighters articles at the same time. I don't want us to work against one another, so how do you think these articles should be arranged with regard to the move lists? Moments ago, I just removed the list from The King of Fighters '95 page (creating a move list page for it) so that it would match The King of Fighters '94 page, but then I noticed that the move list was added to the main page for King of Fighters '94. I would have posted this in the move list project discussion page, but that page doesn't even exist right now and I wanted to bring this to your attention. Personally, I'm in favor of keeping the move lists on their own page, instead of having them on the main page. New User 14:48, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

Good news: New toys!
Hey Bmuig. I have great news for you. It will mean a little bit of fix up work, but I think we have a great compromise to the discussion we had above. Blendmaster just provided us with:



So now, you can indicate a specific A or C punch button, or a specific B and D kick button. Of course it won't work for every game, but it will for the majority of them, (Fatal Fury, KOF, even AOF really, just use the regular C button). What do you think? Procyon (Talk) 14:53, 7 October 2007 (CDT)


 * Also, have a look at StrategyWiki talk:Move lists project and please comment if you like. Thanks.  Procyon (Talk) 15:26, 7 October 2007 (CDT)


 * Hi Bmuig. I just wanted to let you know that I cleaned up the AOF3 move lists.  I realize you copied a lot of what we used to have in the Special Moves template, but Prod and I realized that a lot of what we wrote was unnecessary so we took a lot out.  Take a look at what I did if you're interested.  Thanks!  Procyon (Talk) 23:10, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Continue Nav
I actually encountered the same problem yesterday :P. Easiest solution is to redirect AoF2/Characters to AoF/Characters. -- Prod (Talk) 08:03, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The |game= parameter is no longer used so don't need to add it. Also, is the Basic moves section common to all the guides, cause you can put it in a subpage and transclude it the same way as all the other character pages. -- Prod (Talk) 19:55, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
 * The main reason I suggested transcluding it is because there's a lot of excess markup on each of those and it would be good to clean them all up properly (which I've done for a few). I did forgot to update the AOF header, you can add it in :). -- Prod (Talk) 09:03, 23 October 2007 (CDT)

Series disambig
Isn't Art of Fighting the first game in the AoF series? -- Prod (Talk) 17:27, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
 * We keep our "series" pages in the category name space (for example Category:Art of Fighting) and redirect the regular name (in this case Art of Fighting) over to the category (makes linking easier). In some cases, like Art of Fighting, The first game and the series have the same name, so we add the series disambig template just in case they were looking for the series, not the specific game.  Street Fighter II is different, since Street Fighter is the first game in the series. -- Prod (Talk) 17:49, 24 October 2007 (CDT)

SNK Playmore/Move lists
Hey Bmuig. I just wanted to tip you off to something I did in case it helps you. With characters like Ken, Ryu, and Akuma appearing in so many games, I wanted a central place to point people to if they want to learn more about a particular character than the page says. So I modified Capcom/Move lists, and moved popular characters (characters that appear in four or more different series) to the top as a level 4 header. By doing that, I now have a link that I can point people to if they want to learn more. For example, I will change all of the headers of the Akuma pages to point to Capcom/Move lists instead of listing all of the series that he was in. Just thought I'd mention it to you so you could do the same thing to SNK Playmore/Move lists if you like. See ya. Procyon (Talk) 17:02, 31 October 2007 (CDT)

FF2 and FFS moves
Hi Bmuig. I was contemplating how you might tackle the FFS moves, seeing as most of the character are identical. If you look at how I handled SFA2 and SFA2G, I just added a couple of SFA2G only moves to the SFA2 move lists, even though they are specific to Gold. I just listed them as "SFA2G only" moves. You could probably do the same with the FF2 characters and add an "FFS only" note to any moves that are different in FFS. Then you don't have to make as many move lists for FFS. Just a though. See ya.

KOF organization
Hi Bmuig. At some point over this weekend, I will try to establish a table of contents for the King of Fighters series. I know that you started one already for the first two games. I will keep what you have so far, I just need to move them. It's a tiny pain, but once it's done, we won't have to worry about it any more. Keep up the great work! Procyon (Talk) 23:43, 21 November 2007 (CST)


 * OK, I set up The King of Fighters Orochi Collection and The King of Fighters Nests Collection, and their Table of Contents. It should guide you completely now up to KOF 2002.  After KOF 2002, we'll have to find a new way to set up 2003, NeoWave, XI and XII.  Then we can make separate TOCs for Maximum Impact, etc.  Let me know if you have any questions.  Procyon (Talk) 14:55, 22 November 2007 (CST)


 * You brought up a number of good points, but there are some solutions that we can do. For one thing, we should establish a Category:King of Fighters, and put all of the KOF games in that, just like we do with Category:Street Fighter.  And it may be a good idea to have a Category:King of Fighters Characters.  Next, we can have navigation templates like Template:Zelda, which lists all of the KOF games, and put that at the bottom of each KOF page.  Next, for the characters, we put disambiguation links at the top of the page, such as the one I put on top of Capcom vs. SNK/Characters/Akuma, which links to Capcom/Move lists, which has all of the character links right there for people to find.  Finally, if people are looking for Ash, they can also use the search bar at the top.  What I'm hoping for by breaking up the series, is that we don't have to load up, say, Terry Bogard's page with information about every single KOF on one page.  We can break it up, and give Terry more pages and show his evolution from KOF 94 to KOF 2003 across several pages.  Procyon (Talk) 10:09, 23 November 2007 (CST)


 * OK, I understand what you mean. Personally, I'd rather see a link like The King of Fighters/Characters/Terry #redirect to the SNK Playmore/Move lists page.  Like if we had a Street Fighter/Characters/Ryu, it should #redirect to Capcom/Move lists.  Just an idea.  Ultimately, it can be however you prefer.  As for the ToC, there's no need to add KOF '99 and up if it's in a Navigation Template.  You would always be able to get to it at the bottom of the page.  That would get especially confusing to a reader since '99 isn't part of the Orochi saga.  Procyon (Talk) 12:08, 23 November 2007 (CST)

FYI
Since I finish up with Capcom Fighting Evolution, I started to move on to NeoGeo Battle Coliseum. As a result, I ended up doing Kyo Kusanagi's movelist, and it is of course one of the most complicated. Anyway, I figured you'd like to know so that whenever you work on Kyo, you can copy this list and cut it down to whatever is necessary, since I think that list contains almost every move that Kyo has ever had. It should save you some time. Take care! Procyon (Talk) 16:40, 28 November 2007 (CST)

Character info
Hi Bmuig. I like the idea that you have for the basic character information. There's only one problem. The name that you chose the house that information is not good. In accordance with our policy, the main page name (the first name before a "\") should be a guide or at the very least, a company. In other words, "SNK\Characters\Terry\Basic Information" might have been more acceptable. However, the information that you're trying to transclude is so small, that it could just as easily be copy and pasted between each fighter's page, and therefore, does not really warrant saving in their own pages. The idea was good, but the method isn't worth the effort to maintain. Please don't be upset if we delete them. I will make sure that the information is not completely lost. Procyon (Talk) 09:57, 6 December 2007 (CST)


 * Hi Bmuig. I'm sorry that the deletions upset you.  I didn't want to make you sad, but all of your hardwork was kept on the individual character pages, so it wasn't completely lost.  I will try to explain why we had to delete them as best as I can:


 * Transcluding should be kept to a minimum, when there is a lot of information that needs to be contained on a lot of pages, and you only want to have to edit it once. You are correct that the information you were adding needs to be contained on a lot of pages, and you are correct that trying to update every page with new information would be kind of a pain.  However, there are better ways of handling the problem than by transcluding very small pieces of information.  Take a look at how I handled SF2 Ryu.  At the very top of the page, there's a link that takes the reader to the Capcom move lists page where all of Ryu's appearances are listed together.  If you could set something like that up on the SNK Playmore move lists page for Terry, then you'd only have to direct the user to one place, and update the move lists page whenever you add a new appearance.  I hope you understand.  Again, I agree with your idea, just not its implementation.  I discussed it with Prod for a very long time to determine the best possible solution.  Feel free to share your thoughts with me.  Procyon (Talk) 12:49, 6 December 2007 (CST)


 * I'm sorry, you are absolutely correct. I meant to direct you to SF2 Akuma.  I have not had a chance to fix Ryu yet, but I plan to very shortly. Procyon (Talk) 13:57, 6 December 2007 (CST)