User talk:Melon247

Welcome to StrategyWiki!
Hello Melon247! Welcome to StrategyWiki. Thank you for your contributions. If you have any questions, just contact a sysop through their talk page or post on the staff lounge, and they'd be happy to help. If you need help editing, check the StrategyWiki Guide. If you have a question about the content on this wiki, you can check out our staff lounge page. If you want to ask questions or hang out in IRC, we're usually around. On the other hand, if you have ideas for StrategyWiki, bring them up on the forums. Please remember to sign your name on, and only on, talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (    ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field as this helps to document all of your hard work. Feel free to delete this message from your talk page if you like, or keep it for reference. Happy editing! -- DrBob (talk) 14:33, 26 March 2008 (CDT)


 * Hi DrBob. You might have guessed that I like Dogs Life. Melon247 14:43, 26 March 2008 (CDT)
 * I'm glad you decided to join us, your Dog's Life information precedes you :P. -- Prod (Talk) 14:52, 26 March 2008 (CDT)


 * Is there a picture of all the buttons on a PS2 controller on this website?Melon247 04:05, 19 April 2008 (CDT)
 * What you probably want is Template:Psx. --DrBob (talk) 06:09, 19 April 2008 (CDT)

Administrator
How do you become an administrator? I would like to be one too because you get to answer peoples questions and things like that, but I'm not sure if I'd make a very good one because I tend to go on Dog's Life and not much else. Melon247 13:46, 14 July 2008 (CDT)


 * Administrators are chosen based on the results of a staff vote, and are generally nominated for their overall contributions to the site such as article clean ups, corrections, and organization. Any user is free to answer other user's questions, and in fact this is encouraged.  In other words, don't think that you need to become an Sysop to answer people's questions.  Answer people's questions and other staff members may recognize your potential to be Sysop. Procyon (Talk) 14:36, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
 * The only difference between regular users and sysops is that we can ban people and protect pages. As a regular user, you have as much say into anything that goes on as any sysop.  You can help people out and answer questions all you want. -- Prod (Talk) 22:15, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

Ok

Hey, Prod, you seem to be up late a lot. I noticed that the most recent things you put on are at nine or ten o' clock at night.Melon247 07:24, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
 * Remember, people from all over contribute to this site, they may not necessarily be in the same time zone as you are :). Also, if you want more of an overview on admins, see this page for an overview on how to become one, and this page for information on what admins can do. -- 17:20, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
 * Unfortunately, due to work I don't sleep much anymore :(. And as I keep moving around timezones these days, I may be anywhere from 1 hr ahead of that to 2 hours behind :P. -- Prod (Talk) 18:35, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

How do you find out if someone has written something on a talk page or do you just go on recent changes and hope that not too many people have changed pages since?Melon247 10:42, 16 July 2008 (CDT)
 * We only get around 500 edits per day, so it doesn't go too quickly, so I see every change by the end of the day. If you don't want to do that much, you can simply watch the pages you are interested in (using the watch button in the toolbox) and then visit your watchlist to see what's been changed recently. -- Prod (Talk) 22:05, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

I think I might sign myself up to be an administrator. I'll need some reasons why though.Melon247
 * Usually, administrator is only given if you need to delete pages or ban people. It's not really anything special. -- Prod (Talk) 22:05, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

Do you have to be an administrator to give people thank you's? If not, how do you do it!Melon247 (Dog&#39;s Life&#39;s No. 1 fan)

And also you probably have to be an administrator to welcome people to strategywiki. I found a new user, so tell me if I did something wrong.Melon247 (Dog&#39;s Life&#39;s No. 1 fan)

By the way, the new user was Borregudo I also did the same for Rapmj. There were some more new users but I didn't do any more just incase you had to be an administrater.


 * We can see all of the edits you are making, you don't need to bring them to our attention here. Melon, your enthusiasm and all of your contributions are appreciated, and I don't mean to bring your spirits down at all, but you simply don't have enough experience at this point to be an administrator.  You are more than welcome to welcome new users, however, we do not welcome users just for joining SW.  New users do not receive welcome notices until they make at least one contribution or edit.  Some users sign up and never do anything with the account, and there's no need for us to have a bunch of useless welcome messages clogging up the database.  Just to make sure that you're doing it correctly, all you have to do is type  and save the page, and everything will appear as it should.  Thank yous are probably best left to sysops unless you feel there is an overwhelming need to recognize someone who is being overlooked.  Procyon (Talk) 09:58, 18 July 2008 (CDT)

Ok, it doesn't matter, I don't think Strategiwiki really needs another administrator when you see the long list of them.

And what are the pending task thingy's that everyone seems to have on their user pages?Melon247 (Dog&#39;s Life&#39;s No. 1 fan) 06:56, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
 * It's the stuff we want to work on whenever we have a chance. Just to remind ourselves/show others. -- Prod (Talk) 12:18, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

What's the difference between an administrator and a Sysop? /: | --Melon 247, the Dog&#39;s Life Expert 13:10, 11 August 2008 (CDT)
 * They're exactly the same thing, just different names.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 13:46, 11 August 2008 (CDT)

I know you can still answer peoples questions if you're not a sysop, but if you aren't one no-body ever comes to you to ask questions anyway!!! I've looked through the recent changes things millions of times, just about every day, but you guys beat me to the talk pages. And one more thing, how much 'experiance' do you need to be an administrator. I have the feeling that completing Dog's Life isn't enough. I'll have to do an admin coarse. -- Melon 247, the Dog&#39;s Life Expert 08:52, 16 August 2008 (CDT)
 * As RfA states, there is no official prerequisites, however a knowledge of what admins can actually do (and what they can't do) is definitely a good thing to know. And demonstration of tasks that admins usually perform (reverting vandalism, etc. which don't need admin tools to do) is generally a good thing as well. Experience-wise, your contributions of content really don't make any bit of a difference, what's looked at more is your ability to demonstrate your grasp of how this wiki works -- the site's policies, understanding of admin tools, demonstration of admin tasks even without those tools. If you feel that you have all of that, then you probably have a good shot at becoming an administrator.
 * Just as a personal note, however, I don't think you're ready yet. I haven't seen any outstanding contributions from you outside of contributing content, nothing really in the way of cleanup or vandalism reversion. Don't let that discourage you if you feel that you're ready, however, just keep in mind that I won't be under the "Support" column unless somebody says something that changes my mind. -- 10:32, 16 August 2008 (CDT)
 * You might also want to chill in the IRC channel once in a while and chat with people. For talk pages, if there's anything you can add, go ahead and say it. Don't be discouraged if someone says something first (be happy that you didn't have to type it!). -- 16:39, 16 August 2008 (CDT)

What I don't understand is, what's the big deal? Being an admin on here doesn't grant you any more popularity or visibility, it's all about responsibility. I'm not against you becoming an admin at all, and if you follow Ryan and NMH's advice, I'm sure you will become one, but I've just never seen anyone else so "hungy" to become an admin. What's driving that in you? Procyon (Talk) 20:20, 16 August 2008 (CDT)


 * I've tried the chat thing but it doesn't seem to work and I get confused on how it works because even the 'about' thing is confusing. Also, no body ever seems to answer. Melon 247, the Dog&#39;s Life Expert 14:11, 17 August 2008 (CDT)

I don't know why I want to be an admin... people ask questions on your talk page because most newer people think they can only go for admins to help. I think I've only been able to help one person... which I'm not sure if it counted as 'helping'. The only thing is, I don't really want to sign myself up because it to me seems a bit... um, can't think of the word, but anyway. Just I don't know what anybody means by, like, special contributions or stuff. I did some cleanup on a few pages by copying the content to word and using the spell checker thing, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

I think I's be an admin already if one of the things needed was to make really long talk page sections Melon 247, the Dog&#39;s Life Expert
 * You can start by helping with our chores. -- 15:47, 17 August 2008 (CDT)

I've started working on that, like categorizing pages and stuff. By the way, someone might need to check the numbers on those pages now that there isn't as many pages needing categorisation and stuff. Melon 247, the Dog&#39;s Life Expert 07:00, 18 August 2008 (CDT)
 * The numbers are generated automatically. They are and always will be very accurate. -- 09:20, 18 August 2008 (CDT)

There aren't really that many people that need help. If they do, they should be asking in the Staff lounge, where you can see them just as easily as any of us. The other place is on the forums. And as you can see, there just aren't that many people in either of those locations. I'd say focus on your guides, and help anyone who needs help with games you have. -- Prod (Talk) 09:53, 18 August 2008 (CDT)

Hey, howcome Najzere gets promoted to sysop? Oh well, I'm not really bothered anyway. Just the thing is all the games I have don't seem to be popular, so while he's off writing guides for games I've never even heard of, I'm stuck with all the pet games... because that's all I seem to have (I ♥ animals). Either that or I'm too rubbish. I'll try spell checking. --Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 10:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Explanation
Hi Melon. Please don't feel insulted, we certainly don't want you to feel as though you and your work are not appreciated, because they absolutely are. If you notice some of the comments we've made on Najzere's page, he has shown an innate understanding for the work that is required to keep the site well structured and organized. He has proactively behaved like a sysop before actually being nominated for one. It has a lot less to do with his knowledge of any one specific game, and his tendency to work on solving problems and participating in discussions about the resolution of certain problems, and addressed problems that were previously unidentified. If this is really a goal of yours, then you can demonstrate your willingness to participate in these activities as well. However, if you're happier simply editing guides for games that you enjoy, then being a sysop isn't a requirement, but you'll still be a very valued member of this community :) Procyon (Talk) 19:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

A little thank you… For contributing so many pages for pet games. Hugs, DrBob (talk) 20:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC) I'd like to echo what Procyon's said. You're doing fine, and I'm impressed and grateful for all the work you've done writing guides for pet games — you've managed to keep the writing style good, and include pictures, which really makes your guides stand out. At the moment, however, I don't think you have the experience necessary to become a sysop…but that's immaterial, because you don't need to be a sysop to do what you do best, which is write good guides. StrategyWiki would be empty without people to write all our content, so I suggest you just carry on as you are, and perhaps in time your contributions will grow to require sysop privileges. Feel free to move the thank you to your user page, along with Notmyhandle's. :-) --DrBob (talk) 20:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * At least the community recognizes you =) -- 00:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! : ) So basically, if I stick to writing walkthroughs, perhaps one day (probably not very soon) I will be a sysop? I tried looking at some pages listed on whatever that page was called that I think NMH suggested (the one he called 'chores') but I can't really find anything to do on there because everything's already been done! --Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 15:09, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, you can become a sysop without writing a guide, or any major part of a guide. Zaikukaj, as far as I know, hasn't submitted half as much content as you, but understands our policies and goals, and continues to help with maintenance of the site (cleanup and primarily checking spelling). Zai is a good example of one of the more invisible sysops. The administrators here are meant to manage and keep things under control. We fight vandalism, we try to organize things, and overall we try to keep things within the goals of SW (our scope, licensing, etc.). You should read some of the Guide policy pages if you haven't. -- 23:26, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I wanted to point out that not only are the guides you work on in depth, but you work on them at an incredible speed. We tend to be online at the same time so you are one of the contributors I recognize and genuinely respect. :3 Being an admin is gaining some responsibility over handling and maintaining the site, it has very little to do with contributing content (patrolling new posts and chores are the bulk of it). Bmuig is a good example of someone who specialized in one game genre (fighting games) and was promoted so don’t let the fact that you like focusing on pet/animal games keep you down. If you keep doing what you have been and continue learning and contributing I bet you will get the title sooner or later. --Zaiqukaj 10:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

When I put the delete template on vandalised pages (which seems to happen a lot, considering I can't delete them) am I supposed to leave my signature, or hope that the only people bothered will be admins who look in the history or recent changes? -- Melon 247, The Dog's Life Expert 17:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no need to leave your signature; anyone can see who added the tag. If you're requesting deletion for an article that's not outright vandalism though, you might want to put your reasons on the talk page so people can discuss it. And obviously you sign on talk pages. - naj zere 01:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Whenever I ask about administrators, how come the answer is always 'I haven't got enough experience'. What it experience on SW meant to be!? I try my best to fight vandalism and welcome users and do cleanup, but I never seem to have experience, or at least not according to anyone else, anyway. And it's nothing to do with not being here long enough because naj only started a few months ago (or maybe a bit more). -- Melon 247, The Dog's Life Expert 18:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone actualy bothered, considering that there probably are lots of other things to do. Just I thought I'd have a reply by now. Sorry if I'm bugging you. But I'm not the most patient of people. Perhaps the only reason I'm not an admin is either because there's a long list of them or just no one things I'm good enough. But how am I supposed to be 'experienced' if nothing I do ever makes a difference? Welcoming users doesn't really count (because anyone can do that) but I can't really do much else at the moment. Write walkthroughs and try and do cleanup where no one else has done it already. Oh yeah, and add delete templates to pages which just say 'kihedfbeifvrujdr' or something like that. -- Melon 247, The Dog's Life Expert 16:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Watermill Map and Higher Quality Images
Hey Melon, nice work on the Water Mill map for Dog's Life; I assume you used MS Paint? There's two things I'd like to notify you about: Thanks for the great work and I hope you can learn something from all this, -- 21:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) You saved the image as a .bmp, and then uploaded it under Image:Dog's Life Watermill Map.png - as you can see they are not the same thing. Basically, you uploaded a .bmp with a different file extension name and it kept both the file type and the name of the file separate (if you look under the image you'll see the following line: "Dog's_Life_Watermill_Map.png‎ (589 × 475 pixel, file size: 820 KB, MIME type: image/x-bmp)"). However, we can't have that here so you either need to upload it as "Dog's Life Watermill Map.bmp" (we don't allow .bmp anyways so you can forget about that option), re-save the image from MS Paint as a .png to match the file extension and then upload a new version over the top of what you already have (there's a link on the image's page to do so), OR you can deal with number 2 (below).
 * 2) As you've probably noticed around the site, we don't really use MS Paint for making our images. The reason is clear: they come out at a low quality and you can't do transparency with it. To remedy this, we use some of the more professional tools available out there: Photoshop, Paintshop Pro, or the free and open source program called GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/). Since the first two cost money, I recommend downloading, installing, and playing around with GIMP - you'll learn more advanced techniques for working with images (like layers, paths, and styles) and they'll eventually come out looking much better than what you could pull off with MS Paint. So, if you're interested, and I recommend it, please download and work with GIMP from now on.

Thanks
A little thank you… For all of the many awesome contributions to pet related games. Hugs, 23:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Feel free to move this to your user page if you like. Keep up the great work! -- 23:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

THE DOG Island
Hi, just came from your THE DOG Island page after doing a little cleanup on spelling and grammar. Just wanted to mention a few things:

1) Clicking on the rightmost link at the bottom of the page doesn't take you to the next section of the walkthrough, but back to the main page.

2) What are you ideas on some consistency certain in-game terms? For instance in the game, the currency is capitalized (i.e. Woof) and also the main island, as well as the game itself, is referred to as THE DOG Island as opposed to The Dog Island. I changed to the island name to all caps in the pages, but refrained from changing the main headers and titles.

3) I was wondering if you are playing the European version of this game, and if so, are all the terms actually spelled in that fashion? Meaning is the word "colour" actually used instead of "color" or "memorise" instead of "memorize"? I didn't change any of those type of words except "metre," which just looked too wrong to me!

Anyway, I'm a fan of the game and I'm glad to see your guide is coming along. Cheers
 * Sorry for intruding, but Melon: in regards to item 1, setting the nextpage= parameter on the Footer Nav will allow you to modify the link, see the documentation for more info. To both Melon and 24.234.156.46, the same "flavor" of English should be used throughout the guide. Therefore, if it was written in British English, it should remain in British English, so "metre" would be correct and all instances where it is not changed back to fit properly with the rest of the guide. As for point 2... you can decide on that one :) -- 20:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I know this is wierd, but everyone says the title of the game should be The Dog Island, but every time someone says the title in the game, the subtitles at the bottom say THE DOG Island. I'm not sure which it's supposed to be. Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 12:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Please see 4 Kids Entertainment, Inc.'s property page where they describe The Dog. Artistically their logo is "THE DOG", however when you talk about it it's simply "The Dog" (standard written form). Because of this, both ways are correct. Since we already have the guide set up, there's no reason to change it, however within a page, all of the content should be standardized (regionalized language and "The Dog" capitalization). Just make sure it's either one, but not both. -- 19:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, this is 24.234.156.46. I registered to make it easier on everyone. I went back through the guide and changed all the "THE DOG" instances to "The Dog" as well as re-Britishizing meter and memorize. Did some spelling and grammar stuff too. Anyway, glad to see you're still updating the guide.

I was wondering about the Content box that is on some of the pages, but not on all of them. Looking at the edit page, I don't see anything explicitly generating these boxes, but if it is possible to force them it would provide more consistency throughout the walkthrough. Edit: Nevermind, I found it. If using isn't the proper way to do it, let me know. I'll check back in from time to time for cleanup. Keep up the good work. Najzere 16:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I just verified my email and saw your question about the swordfish on my IP's talk page. To catch the swordfish (Marlin) you need to do a couple missions first for the dogs on the beach in Green Meadows. You need Marlin bait first. You get it by finding the saffron flower for Sayori (one of the dogs on the beach) and then talking to her husband Isaki. Once you get the bait you can find the Marlin on most sea piers. - Najzere 19:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I see you are interested in cleanup stuff. Just to let you know, I am working on the guide for Dog's Life at the moment. Everyone's working on the spelling and grammer and things like that because it's being voted on for Featured Guide status. I don't suppose you have any free time (or Dog's Life, because no-one else seems to have it and so I'm the only one who knows what I'm talking about) to help us? --Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 13:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've gone through the Dog's Life guide up to Boom City doing proofreading. I don't know if you're watching it, but I also added my thoughts to the Featured Guide Request page. I've got some Dog's Life questions, so is your talk page or the Dog's Life talk page a better place for you? Normally I'd just put it on the guide's talk page, but you seem to be the sole author(ity). I'm looking forward to getting your guide up to featured status. And I promise I'll be able to contribute more to the Dog Island guide since I actually have that game! - naj zere 09:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I've made some major changes to The Dog Island guide. I'd like to see it go in a less informal direction, so I've been taking out drivel, which means "Blackie" had to go. So far I've added a Gameplay page and modified the Minigames, Places, Getting Started pages as well as the Main Page. I'll be going through the walkthrough as well, cleaning it up to create a consistent tone throughout the guide. I also plan on adding pages for shops and items, the Collector books and the diary entries. I actually have all this and more written, so it's just a matter of getting onto the site. I want to thank you for getting some images up on the guide. It looks like you're able to take screen captures, and we could use a bunch of map and menu images. I think we will be able to do much more with this guide than the Dog's Life one, just due to huge amount of information in The Dog Island. Happy editing, - naj zere 20:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

For the first comment, I guess my talk page would be my preferal if you wanted to ask questions on Dog's Life, because then it comes up with that 'you have new messages' thing when i go to the main page. Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 13:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm more a nuts and bolts type of guy, so the walkthrough was the last thing I was writing. It would be great if you continued doing the walkthrough, since I'd rather just accumulate all the information and then make sure the guide looks good. Let me know if you have the ability to take screenshots from the game, because I've got a request list! Thanks, - naj zere 17:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't actually take screenshots, I usually find them on google or something like that, but if the guide is finished and we are really short on screenshots, I could always record some The Dog Island on the laptop and get screenshots that way (but they won't turn out very good, because I don't have a special plug thing). But if you have a requests list, I'll see if i have enough space on the laptop to flm the game and create some screenshots. But there could be someone else to ask because I don't know if there's anyone else who can make screenshots. Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 09:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll try to get some myself, since I need to mark them up anyway for locations on maps. If I can't make it happen, then we'll see what you can come up with. - naj zere 16:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Dogz
I'm getting the ame Dogz on PS2 in a few weeks time and if i decide to write a walkthrough for it should it be called Dogz (console) or Dogz (PS2)? Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 10:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just call it Dogz, since we don't have a walkthrough for any Dogz game at the moment. We only split multiple versions of a game on different consoles out into separate walkthroughs if the versions are completely different. That's quite rare. --DrBob (talk) 10:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the chances are that sometime I'm going to make a walkthrough for Dogz for Pc, in which you look after your dogs, but Dogz on PS2 and Wii is a bit like The Dog Island (or so it looks in the videos and screenshots I've seen). So the versions on different consoles are completely different. I think I might start making a walkthrough for Dogz on PC soon, so you'll see the difference. Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 17:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Now that I made the page Dogz, I think I should call the other version Dogz (console), because the PS2 ans Wii versions are the same but with different buttons. And there is another thing. On all the versions of Dogz that I know about, the other game Catz is the same but with cats instead of dogs. What happens now? Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 18:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The official name for the PS2 and Wii releases is Petz: Dogz 2, so that would be the appropriate name for that guide. Procyon (Talk) 22:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes... in America. I got bored of waiting for it to be delivered so in the meantime I got Catz on Wii (although I hear it's exactly the same as Dogz, but with cats). It's definitely just called Catz. But everyone is saying that because it was released in America first it should be called Petz: Dogz 2 (I'm talking about Dogz now). I just hope there aren't any version differences. I'm playing through for the first time and hopefully they say the same things (I've seen enough films on YouTube to confirm that the beginnings are both the same) so I should be able to start a walkthrough soon. --Melon247, The Dog&#39;s Life Expert 17:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Online Games
Would I be able to make a walkthrough for Webkinz World? It's an online game and I've seen walkthroughs and such for Toontown on Strategywiki, but I think you download Toontown (I tried once but it wouldn't let me) whereas in Webkinz you are actually playing online. -- Melon 247, The Dog's Life Expert 13:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well there is a page for Neopets so I don't see anything wrong with making a page for Webkinz. Isn't it really popular with kids? Because of that I bet there are enough users for our notability requirements thing. There are some other online games that don't require a download that have guides here so don’t let that alone disqualify a game. I just got one so I may be able to help out.--Zaiqukaj 13:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see why there should be a problem. Its a very popular thing going on now, so it definitely has notability.  By the way, Melon, keep up the fantastic work!  Every time I turn around, there you are making another great edit!-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 17:10, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Dog's Life Master template
I created a template (starts with user:Melon247/ so don't worry) for peopple to put on their user pages if they became a master of Dog's Life, but every time I go onto it for some reason the list at the left side of the screen (the one with 'main page' and 'forums' and such) moves to the right side, but I had to write about it here because it was covering the link to the discussuin page. Does this happen when other people view the page or is it just my computer? -- Melon 247, The Dog's Life Expert 09:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed. :) naj zere 10:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)