User talk:Onderduiker

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Hello Onderduiker! Welcome to StrategyWiki. Thank you for your contributions. If you have any questions, just contact a sysop through their talk page or post on the staff lounge, and they'd be happy to help. If you need help editing, check the StrategyWiki Guide or visit the IRC channel to chat, we're usually around. On the other hand, if you have ideas for StrategyWiki, bring them up on the forums. To keep up-to-date with the goings on of the wiki, consider adding the noticeboard to your watchlist.

Please remember to sign your name when leaving comments on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (    ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Feel free to delete this message from your talk page if you like, or keep it for reference. Happy editing! —  Pro cyon  17:16, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Attributes
Great job on KOTOR/Attributes. You really revamped the page. Thank you for your work. -- 22:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Colors
Try not to add font colors, particularly where black would be suitable. We will probably remove the font tags eventually, since it is usually seen as an unnecessary addition. Also, it may look good in one skin but not another. I'm telling you this so you don't end up working really hard at making things look a certain way, because it will probably change. At least, that's been my experience here over the past couple of years. I'm also telling you this because I was into colors for a while, too, before I was disappointed by the community's stance. I hope you understand. -- 22:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * No problem, I've already removed the font tags from the four pages to which I've contributed so far.


 * {|cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0 style="border: 1px solid dodgerblue; background: midnightblue; color:dodgerblue"


 * For future reference, would something like this be acceptable? I'll concentrate on adding content first, but my intent was to highlight text transcribed from description windows in the game itself (which look something like this).
 * }


 * Onderduiker (talk) 19:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * If you're attempting to mimic the game's exact presentation, that's fine, as long as it's clearly legible. While not a huge concern, it is nice to be thoughtful of any potential color combination that people with color blindness might have a hard time seeing (although, usually they can enable browser settings that minimize the issue.)  Also, you don't necessarily need to use a table cell to accomplish that.  You can also use a CSS style span.   Pro  cyon  22:57, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I've used Vischeck, and that particular combination is okay. Since I'm thinking of transcribing description text for attributes, feats, Force powers, items and quests, I'll most likely create and use a template at some point so that if there are any issues, they can be dealt with more quickly and easily. Onderduiker (talk) 15:55, 9 May 2012 (UTC)


 * If you want to try, I would use Template:kotorcolor or something game specific. -- 16:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for putting so much effort into the KOTOR guide! -- 20:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Hopefully I'll get everything including the walkthrough done by the end of next year (time and motivation permitting). Onderduiker (talk) 21:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Unused Images
Hello, can you check on Special:UnusedFiles if the 11 images for Kotor are needed or not. If yes, then please add them on pages where they belongs to and if not, then add "Unused" or put another Reason here. to it? Thank you for your Help. Paco (talk) 14:06, 17 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I've now used four of those images, and the remaining seven are marked for deletion since they won't be used. Onderduiker (talk) 21:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for your help. ^^ Paco (talk) 09:09, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Template parameters
If you want a parameter to be optional/invisible, just put (notice the pipe before the closing brackets). If you want additional formatting to be invisible (bold, a table row, etc., let me know and I will show you how to use the #if function. -- 16:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry for not responding sooner, but I've been thinking about how to proceed. I won't create any new templates or edit the existing ones yet, because I want to proceed with the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic walkthrough until I've worked out what I'm going to need them for. Most likely I'll need to complete the Search for Bastila up to the point where I must first use Awareness and Demolitions (Lower City Apartments, I think).


 * It may be a while before I get back to template design, though, as it's occurred to me that most (if not) all of the explanatory dialog could and should be moved to the relevant page in the Getting Started section (making the question a link to that page or section), and I might as well revise and complete that section (excluding Mini games) before returning to the walkthrough.


 * I can see how the #if function will be useful and I'm interested in learning how to use it, but bear with me. Onderduiker (talk) 23:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


 * No problem! I am just watching your progress. To flesh out walkthroughs, just use the default style of sidebar for any important/optional notes. Great work by the way. -- 18:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Game naming
Wikipedia isn't always the best location for finding the right name for a guide. They tend to follow their own naming conventions and it's not always the same as the name proposed by the developers/publishers. The general guideline we follow is "find what the developers intended, and go with that name." This is sometimes different from Wikipedia. Some of these major guide renames, I have a bot that can handle lots of the parts, so please let me know where you think this guide should finally end up. -- Prod (talk) 17:14, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I added a colon after Star Wars because its predecessor was Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and its successor (?) is Star Wars: The Old Republic (and this seems to be common practice with Star Wars games more generally); I replaced the later colon with a dash because I'm not sure there can be more than one colon in a title, and when I look at the program under All Programs on my Start bar, it's titled Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords (colon(s?) omitted since this is an invalid character for a file name).


 * Obsidian Entertainment is inconclusive: STAR WARS®: Knights of the Old Republic™ II - The Sith Lords is how it's named in the front page announcement that it's now on Steam, whereas the Games drop down menu and subsequent forum use Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. The manual uses  Star Wars® Knights of the Old Republic® II: The Sith Lords, but bold and italics can't be specified for wiki page titles.


 * I'm inclined to keep it as Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords, not least because I've already renamed the other pages and links. It could be shortened to Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, but it's commonly referred to by the abbreviation TSL and The Sith Lords is on the box artwork and in the manual (among other things). -- Onderduiker (talk) 18:05, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This page seems to have the names of lots of the games as stated by LucasArts, and they don't seem to be that consistent between games ("Star Wars® Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords"). Here's Obsidian's page near the bottom states "Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords".  I've seen a few games with multiple colons.  I don't know if there's a style issue with multiple colons one way or the other, but we should stick to what the developers say.  Personally, I think Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords is the most commonly used title, and seems to be what they intended for the name. I can take care of cleaning up the names, links, and categories, as I have a few scripts that help with that.  I just want to make sure we agree first.
 * On a separate style note, all titles are supposed to be italics, and we could make the headings italics just for the title. However, I think that would just look awkward, and be much harder to maintain across the whole site. -- Prod (talk) 18:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * More generally there's inconsistent use of multiple colons, colons and dashes, and possibly omitted colons in Star Wars titles, but I agree that for this particular game the most common and official title appears to be Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords. Apologies for creating extra work (particularly since this was the old title), but it's better this gets sorted out now rather than after I've started creating more pages while adding content. -- Onderduiker (talk) 19:13, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Torchlight
Hi Onderduiker! I'm glad you put Torchlight in your sights. I really enjoyed that game and Runic Games is one of my favorite gaming companies (I got to meet the development team once), so I hope that you can help put the final touches on the guide. It could really use some good Destroyer, Vanquisher, and a new Alchemist build, but I'm not asking for anything really. I just wanted to reach out to you to let you know I am rooting for you (I know you will improve it)! Ahah. -- 06:52, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the encouragement! Although I've already completed Torchlight by muddling through with all three classes on Normal, I won't consider it finished until I've done so on Very Hard with the minimum number of characters required to maximize the skills and spells used: I expect that to be at least three per class, focusing on different skill trees, weapon configurations, attributes and so on. As such I've been familiarizing myself with the console and TorchEd so I can investigate how things work, as well as gathering information from other sources before proceeding with both the game and this wiki.


 * However, in terms of my priorities Torchlight comes behind Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and a Diablo II wiki to which I also contribute, so I'm unlikely to do anything significant unless I finish or feel like taking a break from those two. Admittedly I've already played Diablo II to death so that's the one that least motivates me (that wiki's in danger of becoming a personal example of the sunk cost fallacy) and it's another ARPG (so it could make sense to alternate), but I'm planning to play through KotOR 2-4 times (all combinations of alignment and sex, although two may suffice for walkthrough purposes). Onderduiker (talk) 18:51, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm a big fan of D2, too. I played it a lot, but was never the best at it (my two highest characters were like 76 and 81). I used to use bnet's arreat summit pages for their weapon database all the time. Were you working at http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Main_Page ? -- 20:02, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I've made a few contributions to that wiki, but for the past few years I've been working (albeit more and more sporadically) on the Diablo II section of the Amazon Basin wiki. Onderduiker (talk) 18:17, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Reorganization
One thing I'm considering with Torchlight is creating separate pages for each skill tree (added detail and screenshots may make the class pages excessively long otherwise), then adding core build outlines to the class pages (for example, caster (Arcane), summoner (Lore) and fighter (Battle) builds for the Alchemist) rather than having separate Builds pages. However, I've noticed Diablo II also has Class and Builds pages, so I was wondering if doing so would be counter to any established format for ARPGs. Onderduiker (talk) 18:17, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


 * No, we don't have a precedent here. Sub-pages sound good. Just put them in the table of contents under a heading (I can help with that). -- 18:57, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


 * So this is what I have in mind. I'd probably create a fourth ToC column just for Classes, and the builds pages would be deleted after their current content was cut and pasted to the class pages (and subject to expansion and revision at a later date).


 * Alternatively, is there a way to merge the class and builds pages, or at least their histories (depending on how important it is to keep records of who contributed what)? Onderduiker (talk) 18:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It is possible to merge histories, but a lot of work. I can just move the builds page to the first skill tree section and then if you move any content to the other sections you just say "sub-paged to " in the summary. -- 05:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


 * That's a much better idea, and I can move pages myself (and flag resulting redirects for deletion once nothing links). I'll return to Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic from tomorrow (I'll complete Jedi training on Dantooine before working out templates and revising existing pages), but I can reorganize Torchlight tonight and do bits and pieces when I take a break from other projects. Thanks! Onderduiker (talk) 21:46, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Image naming
Looking at Torchlight images, there are 67 images prefixed TL (all Achievements) and another 18 prefixed Torchlight (and one template): should one set be renamed for consistency, or isn't this an issue as long as they're properly categorized? For future uploads (and templates), should TL or Torchlight be used? Given that there's now Torchlight II, TL and TL2 could be used (again, I'm assuming any other games abbreviated to TL wouldn't be an issue as long as they're properly categorized).

Incidentally, is there any reason why there's both an Achievements page and an Obtaining achievements page? If not, I'll 'merge' them (move one to create the Quests page to preserve its history, then cut and paste content). Onderduiker (talk) 17:18, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Filename patterns do not need to be unified except for those used with templates (and templates can be customized to be inclusive of more than one filename pattern). At this point, I don't think that applies to any of the torchlight images. Our image name policy can be found here. -- 17:27, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * In the future I'll prefix all images and templates with TL, and rename existing ones when I next edit any page which uses them. I'll be doing some reorganizing of the Table of Contents and 'merging' and renaming some pages over the next few days, but once I've established the framework for future work I probably won't do any significant work on this guide for a while. Thanks! Onderduiker (talk) 18:50, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * That's ok. It is pretty good in its current form. Not 100% complete, but usable. Plus, the game is pretty easy so a guide isn't really in demand. Remember to mark redirected moved pages for deletion, or uncheck the box to leave a redirect when moving a subpage, as we do not allow sub-page redirects. Also, since the builds pages no longer exist, don't you think they should be re-added? Or, a builds section added to each class page? -- 19:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I remember seeing Torchlight in the Most Popular or Most Wanted list on the Main Page a while back; however, since Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is currently 9. on the Most Wanted list, I'll be focusing on that for the foreseeable future (I've compiled all remaining Taris pages except the last, Davik's Estate, I just need to get them formatted and uploaded).


 * You and Paco have already deleted the redirects created by my recent moves bar the most recent, Obtaining achievements, which I've just moved to Achievements ; thanks to both of you, and I'll edit the Achievements page and check links before leaving Torchlight alone, for now.


 * The class pages each have a Builds section already, containing all content cut and pasted from the defunct builds pages (check histories of the Arcane, Berserker and Marksman pages to verify). They could certainly stand to be expanded, but nothing's been lost. Onderduiker (talk) 22:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

KOTOR/Skills diff review
Can you take a look at this diff, and the one before it, and confirm that it is correct or an acceptable change? Thanks. -- 16:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The formulae have been expressed differently rather than corrected by those edits. However, the additional character generation formulae would only apply to mods, and where necessary to clarify I've added square brackets to indicate rounding down, and round ones to indicate order of operations (previously I indicated this by lack of spaces, so for example at level 20, [level+3 / 2] = [23/2] = 11, whereas [20+3] / 2 = 11.5 and [level + 3/2] = [20+1.5] = 21). The changes to the level up formulae make it clear that they share a common factor with those at character generation, which is actually better. Onderduiker (talk) 22:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Corrupted images
I am reporting the upload issue to. Can you upload the files somewhere online and then send me the URL? E.g. if you have .png, go to tinypng.com and upload it there so it will be compressed, then send it to me. I know one is a .jpg so you'll have to find a different method for that one. I want to see if it occurs again under similar conditions. -- 18:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I've uploaded both images to Photobucket and linked to them below: they display properly there and on my own computer. Both are derived from screenshots taken using the PRTSC key, which were saved as TarGA (.tga) images by the game before being exported to a .png and a .jpg image respectively using GIMP.


 * File:KotOR Model Rancor.png


 * This image was cropped, copied and pasted from the screenshot; the next one had part of another screenshot copied and pasted over it.


 * File:KotOR Screenshot Black Vulkar Base.jpg


 * I may try uploading a couple of screenshots that were simply exported to a .jpg image when I upload the first draft for the Black Vulkar Base (Garage) page later. I uploaded earlier screenshots with no problem, although I remember there being an issue with at least one of the skill tree images I uploaded for Torchlight. Onderduiker (talk) 20:12, 13 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I downloaded the images from photobucket and re-uploaded them. They look fine. See File:KotOR Screenshot Black Vulkar Base.jpg and File:KotOR Model Rancor.png. Make sure GIMP is up to date. Maybe photobucket converted the images and stripped bad code or changed it around. -- 21:04, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Did you just use MultiUpload or just Special:Upload? -- Prod (talk) 22:58, 13 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I've updated from GIMP 2.8.4 to 2.8.10 and successfully uploaded two screenshots saved afterwards for the pending page: hopefully this wasn't coincidental, and apologies for the extra work. I also moved the two files linked above to their original names (there was already one existing link), and updated those links so the redirects can be deleted. Onderduiker (talk) 23:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Prod: I only ever use Special:Upload. -- 00:43, 14 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I know you are afflicted by the same issue, but to get around it can you upload to say photobucket again so I can get it on here safely (in regards to the hangar image)? -- 00:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay, after successfully uploading another image I tried this one again and it was also successful, so no need for this anymore; thanks for offering.


 * This may be a separate issue, but I've also noticed that occasionally when I preview or save a page it doesn't display or save all of it and I have to try again. This is probably due to their size (I've experienced it with another wiki), and when I get templates sorted out it should help reduce them. At least I've more or less finished Taris, and I'm now on Dantooine... Onderduiker (talk) 22:12, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I think it is mainly due to your own connection - between your location and SW's server. I have never experienced half-pages. It is always all or nothing. Also, I deleted File:KotOR Screenshot Woorwill's Home.jpg for you. -- 18:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The half-pages aren't a big issue: I copy all text before saving or previewing, check a new page after saving to make sure it's all there, and check Recent changes after editing an existing page to make sure nothing's been lost. Editing sections rather than whole pages also seems to avoid this issue.


 * Thanks for deleting that file; I'll upload it again shortly. Could you also delete File:KotOR Screenshot Hall of the Chieftain.jpg? Aside from the corrupted lower third, I've taken a better shot so I'd be uploading a new version anyway. Onderduiker (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Done. --18:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

KotOR templates
I'm finally working on templates for the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic walkthrough (I've made some notes on this talk page). I've already used the function successfully in the KotOR/Header template, but I'm having an issue using the  function in the KotOR/Power template. At present, this template only allows 5 of 44 Force power icons to be selected (it will be expanded once the markup is correct):

Fixed!

However, while the icons are displayed (and functions allow size to be altered and a Difficulty Class value to be added if necessary), their captions and links to the relevant section of the Force powers page are not (  should result in, as seen in the Jolee section of the Party page). I have a nasty suspicion that this is because the function is currently used as follows:

[[File:KotOR Force power  

From what I've read so far, I suspect the pipes ( | ) are terminating the function early and thus it needs to be used as follows:

[[File:KotOR Force power  .png | | link=Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic/Force powers# 

I need to know the correct markup before I expand, and whether the number of checks may cause problems (44 (*3?) Force powers for this template, but I'll be creating similar templates for 100 feats and 100+ items) which require multiple templates to solve (for example, separate templates for light side (14), universal (16) and dark side (14) powers). Onderduiker (talk) 18:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I would suggest skipping shortening the power names, get rid of the switch, and just use them directly in the template.

[[File:KotOR Force power  .png||link=Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic/Force powers#|...}} 
 * It also helps make things clearer when editing the page and templates. -- Prod (talk) 01:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks! That's much simpler, although an optional second parameter is necessary for the link since there isn't one for every Force power (just the first in each line). I've updated the KotOR/Power template accordingly (and corrected the markup above to display the icons correctly).


 * I may have overcomplicated things as I was also thinking about the KotOR/Feat template: while most follow the same pattern as Force powers, Armor and Weapon Proficiencies (and Weapon Focuses and Specializations) do not. For example, the following was necessary for an Armor Proficiency: Light icon:


 * KotOR Feat Armor Proficiency Light.png


 * However, if the colon is omitted from the caption then it need be no more complicated than the KotOR/Power template:


 * Item file name, caption and link text are normally identical, although a second parameter is needed for the page in the link. I've created the KotOR/Item template accordingly. However, the file names for all Lightsabers, Double-Bladed Lightsabers and Short Lightsabers need to include a crystal color. I think the simplest way to do this is with an optional third parameter and function, so this is what I've done:


 * I've also recently created the KotOR/Screenshot, KotOR/Header, KotOR/Mine and KotOR/Lock templates, all of which seem to work as intended and documented. I'll update the Templates section of the walkthrough talk page as I go, so people can keep track of progress. Onderduiker (talk) 18:53, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Keeping track of KotOR templates
Rather than make a category, I recommend adding a list at the top of the talk page of the main page of KotOR. This is helpful for the next editor that comes along. -- 00:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry I'm slow, I just reviewed this diff. Looks like you're already doing that! Great work as usual. -- 15:28, 25 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Sorry for the delayed response, but I've been sidetracked playing and investigating classic Diablo II. However, May the Fourth has just come and gone, it's now three years since I made my first contribution to Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, and I've not worked on the two outstanding templates in almost a month, so it's time to get back to it.


 * I may move the Templates and Images sections from the Talk:Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic/Walkthrough page to the Talk:Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic page, since neither are exclusive to the walkthrough. Once I've created the two remaining templates, I'll post in the staff lounge: they'll all be used extensively, and similar or identical templates will be used for its sequel (and possibly similar games like Dragon Age: Origins in the future) so I want to be sure there are no issues before I start using them. Onderduiker (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Your dialogue templates are perfect for this type of game. My only issue is that I used Dragon Age wiki a ton when I was playing through Origins (I only got 75% of the way done; I will re-visit it some time, but I am stuck trying to make some relationship events occur). Looking through all of the dialogue possibilities, I really liked the simplistic trees made from bullets. I'm not sure how to visualize a dialogue template that could offer the same ease of use. That said, the best walkthrough will be one that will offer players of any type a successful path through the game. If that means omitting parts of the dialogue where insignificant choices are, then maybe we should do that. I wonder if we could add a parameter to KotOR Dialog to have sub-dialogue entries (e.g. if you choose option 1, the second dialogue box would be, say, indented and then show all of the options available after that; and so forth). Or we could have the entire tree in the middle of the walkthrough, but collapsible... Hmmm. -- 23:31, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I've completed all origin stories for Dragon Age: Origins but only one character has made it to Lothering, so I don't know if dialog is more complicated than that of KotOR. However, KotOR dialog is often a lot more straightforward than the number of options suggests: it often loops back on itself (returning to the same options minus the one just chosen, so these options can be listed in sequence), or mutually-exclusive options converge after only a brief separation (or none at all: different options often lead to exactly the same response). So dialog is often a lot more linear than it first appears... although an example of a more complicated dialog can be found on the HK-47 page (that for Yavin Station is also a bit of a pain to unravel, which is why I haven't uploaded it yet).


 * I'm still planning to upload all dialog but hide that which is optional or lacking meaningful choices in collapsible tables with the KotOR/Hide template, since one of the reasons to replay a game like this is to discover things previously missed (for example, party interactions or comments added to specific dialogs, like Bastila and Carth arguing or HK-47... being HK-47). However, if existing or future pages are still too long after using the new templates, I may start leaving out less significant dialogs (anyone who's really interested can always look at the files themselves, although I've found just because it's in the files doesn't mean it's in the game). Onderduiker (talk) 14:53, 10 May 2015 (UTC)


 * DragonAge dialogue can loop, but in some cases an option can be omitted, replaced, or an additional one added (there are no limitations). Some dialogues have 10+ screens of options (perhaps 'depth' is a good word to use for the metric here, as in "this dialogue has a depth of 5"). -- 00:17, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * That does seem more complicated than KotOR. If the dialog is presented in a table, could row anchors be used to allow links to options accessible from multiple points in a dialog? I don't think I'd use this extensively in KotOR, but it might be useful to skip large sections of optional dialog when identifying the quickest path through it (if you suffered from short-term memory loss, you could get caught in an infinite loop with some dialogs).


 * It could be years before I did any work on Dragon Age: Origins myself, if then: since I got it for free, I don't feel the same compulsion to play and then document it as I do with games for which I paid (and I'm loath to work on another RPG of any kind until I've finished work on my current ones). The same applies to Torchlight, although I've played it more extensively and already worked on its guide (so I might feel compelled to finish it, although I'm likely to work on Diablo II first). Onderduiker (talk) 23:30, 11 May 2015 (UTC)