User talk:RobJ1981

Welcome to StrategyWiki!
Hello RobJ1981! Welcome to StrategyWiki. Thank you for your contributions. If you have any questions, just contact a sysop through their talk page or post on the staff lounge, and they'd be happy to help. If you need help editing, check the StrategyWiki Guide. If you have a question about the content on this wiki, you can check out our staff lounge page. If you want to ask questions or hang out in IRC, we're usually around. On the other hand, if you have ideas for StrategyWiki, bring them up on the community portal talk page. Please remember to sign your name on, and only on, talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (    ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field as this helps to document all of your hard work. Feel free to delete this message from your talk page if you like, or keep it for reference. Happy editing! -- Prod (Talk) 14:39, 6 March 2008 (CST)
 * Unfortunately, most of us who used to be on irc all the time, can't be on nearly as much. However, this weekend we'll be having a meeting on irc (check the Calendar for details), and you are welcome to join us. -- Prod (Talk) 21:45, 6 March 2008 (CST)
 * Skizzerz and Tathar are in there the most. I try to come in whenever I'm wikiing or playing games.  Try to come as much as possible - we would really like to have more of an interactive community.  -- 23:01, 6 March 2008 (CST)
 * Thanks for the reminder. We do check it every now and then, but we try to only delete when we have to (and once the discussion is resolved).  That AOF discussion was from January, and the person never followed up.  I guess it's time to close that.  -- Prod (Talk) 17:25, 10 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Come in IRC, me and DrBob are in. -- 01:59, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

X-Men Legends collaboration
Hey Rob, I was wondering if you wanted to team up with me to write a guide for this game. I own the GameCube version and I've beaten it once before (I can't really remember my team except that I used Ice Man the most). I went ahead and created the main game page and set up the ToC. -- 01:18, 11 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Well, I mean, this is pretty casual so whenever you can add something please do so - collabs go much faster because we prompt each other to clean up and correct the others' work. I'm probably not going to focus on this 100% until I feel the Mythos guide is pretty stable, and probably before the new patch comes out.  So yeah, in the next few weeks we should try and get it done.  I wish I had a TV tuner to get screenshots.  Maybe with my next PC.  I might take photos, however that usually doesn't end up too nice.  -- 01:39, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Categories on redirects
We put the correct categories on redirects for alternate official names for a game, so that people who (for example) buy the game in Europe when the guide's written for the American name for the game can actually find the game. --DrBob (talk) 02:11, 11 March 2008 (CDT)
 * As a minor note about this, you don't need to add the Games category, it's automatic (and I'd say even avoided, incase we change the way we do things). -- Prod (Talk) 21:25, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Sega Swirl
The Sega Swirl article is a "onepage" article, meaning it's complete and all on one page (there's not enough content to subpage it), so it doesn't need subpaging. You can tell a onepage article, as the Header Nav will have the |onepage parameter passed. --DrBob (talk) 16:16, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

needinfobox
I appreciate you're trying to be helpful, but there's no need to put needinfobox on pages which have full standard infoboxen — needinfobox is meant to indicate that the page has missing data for the required fields of the infobox; not that it has missing data for the optional fields. :-) --DrBob (talk) 16:18, 12 March 2008 (CDT)
 * I'd like to add why such missing data isn't necessary - by asking a question: how do you know that there is missing data? Perhaps if you knew, you would add it.  You may think there is something missing, but what if it doesn't exist?  What if it does exist, or what if there is more than what you expect?  I guess I had more to say than just one question, but yes, a stub is a stub and the people who know or want to help will investigate to expand what we already have (or lack).  Mange tak, -- 02:44, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Item Lists
Basically it comes down to what makes the most sense. Most of the time I try to replicate what the items look like in game - for instance the categories they exist in, etc. Also, you can separate them by type - like battle-only items, or mixed/non-battle items (and then other categories like quest/non-use items). For alphabatization, the best thing to do is to convert it to table format, use the prettytable template with the "sortable=1" parameter so that it can be sorted as the viewer wishes. In the case of the table entries, alphabatization works best if the items all have different properties, but arranging them by, say, how much they all heal by would make sense if they ALL healed, you know? Hope that helps. Also, if you want me to convert the list to tables, I'll be happy to do so (should take me just a little while to do so). -- 14:34, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Puzzle games
Hi. I changed it to puzzle games going on the categorisation of WarioWare: Smooth Moves, and I think it's broadly an appropriate category. However, I do share your concerns, and I think it warrants further discussion, most likely leading to the creation of a new category as you suggest. Why don't you bring it up on the forums? --DrBob (talk) 15:36, 15 March 2008 (CDT)

Log in
We're having some problems with the server at the moment. If you want to continue editing, it'll continue to put your username to your edits even though it says your IP address at the top of the page. Sorry about this. --DrBob (talk) 02:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Should be working now. :-) --DrBob (talk) 13:33, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Completion Stages
It's up to user discretion - you can upgrade it yourself if you feel it meets the general criteria of each completion stage (see each category for more specifics). Basically it's 0 for a stub or empty guide, 1 for having subpages, 2 for starting the walkthrough, 3 for a basically completed walkthrough, 4 four a completed guide, and featured for a full guide with all the additional parts completed. -- 19:51, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Guides only need peer review when someone wants to push them to stage 5, basically. Thanks for all your hard work. :-) --DrBob (talk) 02:17, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Fighting games
Information on fighting games is arranged in two ways. 1) Each game page shows the move lists for the entire cast of that game (if possible. Sometimes size is a factor and they simply have to be broken up.) 2) Each character that belongs to a fighting game series has a character page for that series where all of the move lists for every game that he or she appears in is presented. The moves themselves are contained on a single page which is intended to be transcluded in two locations; the game page and the character page to which that list of moves applies. Procyon (Talk) 16:30, 3 April 2008 (CDT)

Date Categories
We are making changes - see http://forums.strategywiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=26162 rd has been updated to automate the display of categories, and we now display all dates for a game. -- 15:45, 5 April 2008 (CDT)

Game categories
If you want to create a mini-game category, I think it would be fine. However, I think it would be more appropriate to label the genre as the Party Game genre, as that is how most of the industry identifies games such as Mario Party, Pac-Man Fever, Raving Rabbids etc. I do have one other favor to ask. I recently spent a lot of time repositioning the move lists for many Capcom fighters. One thing I forgot to do was to move the Move Lists category off the front page and onto the moves pages that I created. If you're in the mood to help out with that, I would appreciate it. If not, no worries, I can take care of it later. I just though I'd ask. Thanks. Procyon (Talk) 14:01, 7 April 2008 (CDT)


 * If you look at Street Fighter II, it has Category:Game move lists. That was OK when the move lists were located on the same page, but I moved the move lists to Street Fighter II/Moves, and I forgot to move the category with it.  Pretty much all of the Street Fighter and Darkstalkers games have this category and I should have moved them, but I forgot to.  Eventually, all of the fighting game will be like this, but for now, it's just the Capcom games.  Thanks again.  Procyon (Talk) 14:31, 7 April 2008 (CDT)


 * P.S. Just FYI, we also have a Category:Character move lists for individual character pages.


 * Wow, I just looked at that category, and there are actually a number of pages missing it that should have had it. This includes every game in the Street Fighter II, Street Fighter Alpha, Street Fighter EX, and Street Fighter EX series.  It looks like most of the Marvel vs. Capcom games and Darkstalkers games had them correctly. Procyon (Talk) 14:33, 7 April 2008 (CDT)

Awesome, thanks again. BTW, I'd be interested in hearing about your experience with the load times for the move lists. They tend to be on the slow side for most users, but it varies from one person to the next. Let me know how quickly they came up for you. Thanks. Procyon (Talk) 14:57, 7 April 2008 (CDT)


 * Game A was released for Console X as a standalone game, Game B was released as a compilation with Game A included on Console Y. Game A gets Console X category, but not Console Y. -- Prod (Talk) 15:39, 8 April 2008 (CDT)


 * Yeah, look at Namco Museum Vol. 1 and Pac-Man for example. Pac-Man is listed for a lot of systems, but the PlayStation isn't one of them.  We only categorize a game for a system if that specific title was released for the system.  In other words, just because Pac-Man was playable on the PlayStation, does not mean that Namco released a game with the title Pac-Man for the PlayStation.  See what I mean?  However, Pac-Man was released for the Game Boy Advance (as a NES Classic) title, in addition to being included in several compilations, so the GBA should listed as a category for Pac-Man, and I just now realized it isn't :o Procyon (Talk) 15:53, 8 April 2008 (CDT)

Compilations
"Should games part of a compilation (such as Dr. Mario that was part of a Nintendo Puzzle collection)" - no. The Dr. Mario game should not be listed as such, but you can reference the compilation(s) on the Dr. Mario page to educate people anyways. I'm 80% sure that's our policy, and if you make changes, other admins will see it/correct if necessary. -- 20:08, 8 April 2008 (CDT)

Thanks
A little thank you… For categorisation and ToCiness. Hugs, DrBob (talk) 11:18, 9 April 2008 (CDT) I just wanted to say thank you for all the work you're doing on cleaning categories and ToCs up. Have a pixellated cookie. ;-) I know how boring it is, but I hope you realise how much it's appreciated. If you keep this up, and perhaps take a more active role in things like the cleanup project as a whole, you'll be well on your way to being nominated for sysop status. --DrBob (talk) 11:18, 9 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Many of us who watch Special:Recentchanges notice your work :). If you feel an article is ready to be put to cs5, nominate it and we'll see what happens. -- Prod (Talk) 16:10, 9 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Make a list of three or four stage 4 guides you think should be promoted, and even if they need some minor/cosmetic work still done to them, list them on the nomination page. We can work out what needs doing to spruce them up from there. --DrBob (talk) 16:55, 9 April 2008 (CDT)

Spore
I don't think it really matters. I would personally wait until more information's available to do the split, but if you're confident those details are not going to change, feel free to go ahead. --DrBob (talk) 16:44, 10 April 2008 (CDT)

Japanese name redirects
Hi Rob. I really appreciate that you're making redirects for Japanese names of games. However, since it's difficult for people to type ā or ō, or altered vowels of that nature, we try to provide redirects that don't require them. Usual ā is just a or ah, and ō is either oo or ou (the latter is more common). It's a tough call, and you don't want to have to make redirects for every possible permutation, so look around the web for common spellings, and then go with your best educated guess. But thanks again. Procyon (Talk) 13:16, 11 April 2008 (CDT)


 * Sorry, I'm being nit-picky here, but... The other rule is that if a title is spelled out in Katakana, as is the case for Super Princess Peach, which is written as スーパープリンセスピーチ, then the game doesn't have to be phonetically translated as Supa Purinsesu Peechu. When the Japanese spell something out with Katakana, they are intended to use a foreign language for the title, English in most cases.  So if you asked a Japanese person what the name スーパープリンセスピーチ meant, they would literally respond with "Super Princess Peach".  Fire Emblem is another conundrum.  In that case, you have both Katakana and Kanji for ファイアーエムブレム 蒼炎の軌跡.  The Katakana part is literally inteded to mean "Fire Emblem," so the correct Japanese redirect name would be Fire Emblem: Souen no Kiseki.  Those spellings that you see in wikipedia (such as Faiā Emuburemu) are intended to be pronunciation guides, not literal translations of the title.  The Kanji part is intended to be spoken in Japanese, so Souen no Kiseki is appropriate.  Let me know if you have any questions.  I hope you understand.  Procyon (Talk) 13:45, 11 April 2008 (CDT)

Lyrics
There is no infringement on copyright to post lyrics. If that were the case, all of the hundreds of lyrics sites would be shut down. Since we are offering the lyrics for free with no charge, it falls under the same fair use policy as the images of box artwork or screenshots. Procyon (Talk) 11:14, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Those lyrics are to be moved to another location eventually. For now, we're leaving them until the new location is set up.  For now, don't worry about it :). -- Prod (Talk) 00:57, 15 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Yeah, Prod said what I was going to say. Call it a) a proof of concept, b) nostalgic embelishment, or c) the perk of being a sysop and getting to make the rules.  Ultimately, we hope to start a companion wiki that will concentrate on video game history and terminology rather than strategy to keep to purpose of this wiki distinct.  One said wiki is constructed, the Pac-Man Fever lyrics will move there permanently.  Until then, the inclusion of the lyrics is pretty much a favor granted to me by Echelon.  I still own the original vinyl album ^_^ Procyon (Talk) 09:10, 15 April 2008 (CDT)

Tekken 6
Fixed. --DrBob (talk) 14:16, 13 April 2008 (CDT)

Nintendo EAD
Excellent! I unfortunately won't be able to give you a hand, but I'm sure you'll get along fine. There's no rush. :-) --DrBob (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
 * If you give me a list of pages and the categories that need to be changed, I can have my bot do it next weekend. -- Prod (Talk) 23:58, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
 * It can add, remove, or change categories, and replace one text string with another, which should be all that is necessary for the changes. -- Prod (Talk) 00:47, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

Controller templates
Is Category:Controller button templates what you're looking for? Not quite sure. I also just discovered that Template:Cade is not included there, but it's a tough call to say whether or not is should be. Procyon (Talk) 16:04, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

Series categories
It's generally a waste of time to create stubbed series categories with no content, as people can get the games listings anyway, and a stubbed category just provides a false sense of completion. --DrBob (talk) 17:57, 18 April 2008 (CDT)
 * If you plan to expand them, that's OK, but my point is that it's just as easy to create them when you write the actual content, and leave ones for which you're not going to write content alone. --DrBob (talk) 05:48, 19 April 2008 (CDT)

Sysopness
I've nominated you for sysopness. Please accept the nomination (if you want to), and answer the questions on the nomination page. :-) --DrBob (talk) 11:02, 19 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Success! You're now a sysop. Make sure you refresh any knowledge of the admin guide, and use your new powers wisely. --DrBob (talk) 12:50, 24 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Congrats Rob, and welcome to the underground xD I really need to get around to starting that X-Men legends guide... I'm currently trying to complete Kirby Air Ride 100% so it will be a while...  -- 20:06, 24 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Congratulations Rob ^_^ Keep up the great work!  Procyon (Talk) 21:07, 24 April 2008 (CDT)

Image:Atari7800Photograph.jpg
The cleanup tag's on there because it's actually a PNG image, but is named as if it were a JPG. You can tell it's a PNG by looking at the MIME type ("image/png"), which is stated just below the image itself. --DrBob (talk) 00:49, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

Metroid Prime
You're right; we don't normally encourage that kind of content, but I don't think it does any harm in this case. --DrBob (talk) 01:16, 22 April 2008 (CDT)
 * I've gotten rid of the reception section, that's completely outside our scope. The development section is debatable, and I'd say get rid of it... -- Prod (Talk) 04:13, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

Boilerplate templates for talk pages
Just to let you know, but every single boilerplate template we have for talk pages (Welcome, Vandalism warning and the like) automatically add your signature, so putting --~ after it is pointless. Also, grats on your sysopness :) PS - come onto IRC a bit more often now that you are a sysop... it gets lonely in there. -- 21:10, 24 April 2008 (CDT)

Misspellings list
It is just a list of links to searches for those phrases, so put whatever misspelt word it is you want in with the same format as the others, and then click the link to find all the pages where it's used; they'll have to be fixed manually. --DrBob (talk) 16:20, 25 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Yes. If an author writes a page in British English, it should not be "corrected" to American English, and any future additions to that page should theoretically be in British English too. The same applies to pages originally written in American English. --DrBob (talk) 16:27, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

Madden
Yeah, go ahead and merge it into the passing tips page. :-) --DrBob (talk) 17:03, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

Image renames
Download, upload under new name with credits given to all previous uploaders. -- Prod (Talk) 21:40, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

Request for help
Hi Rob. I just took a shot at filling The Legend of Zelda/Table of Contents out with all of the page links that were missing. While I feel like I set it up hierarchically correct, it still kinda looks like a mess. I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind taking a shot at it and seeing what you could do with it. Thanks very much! Procyon (Talk) 16:50, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

SSBM merges
I agree with you. I think the Easter Eggs and Misc section can be merged under a more generic "Secrets" page. As for the Glossary, I'm not sure what to do with that. It's a useful page if the other character moves pages refer to those terms. In the case of that page, you'd actually have to hunt for a better place for it to be, without losing it's visibility. Readers may become confused if the necessary information isn't present to explain their meanings. Procyon (Talk) 13:54, 3 May 2008 (CDT)
 * We rarely place external links directly within a guide - most commonly external resources appear on the main page under ==External Links== below the ToC, and only if they provide something necessary that the guide doesn't. -- 19:34, 3 May 2008 (CDT)
 * I understood what you meant Rob, and although the answer is currently no, I think it's an excellent idea. Some kind of reference repository.  Sprite archive sites and box art sites could be added to it as well.  We should bring this up in the next (postponed) staff meeting.  Procyon (Talk) 21:16, 3 May 2008 (CDT)
 * Well, up until now such a thing as been in the back of our heads - a secret rarely spoken of between community members. Aaaany ways, I think it's a good topic for next week's meeting.  The one thing we will probably agree on is not linking to other broad scope gaming wikis or cheat websites (gfaqs/gspot).  -- 23:51, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Job Queue
If you don't know what it is, look it up. If the job queue is high, you'll have to wait a long time for changes/statistics to update on the site. -- 01:24, 5 May 2008 (CDT)
 * Special:Statistics contains both the job queue and an external link for it. -- 01:53, 5 May 2008 (CDT)
 * Are you going to be using the java client on ABXY, or something like mIRC or Xchat? For ABXY you can go to the site and click the link, for a client you can enter the server credentials: irc.abxy.org port#:6667 (default).
 * What, you mean registering your nick? I think it's /msg NickServ register. -- 02:20, 5 May 2008 (CDT)
 * I see... they changed the applet since I last used it - it used to log you in automatically under a guest username. Anyways, unless someone can verify that it works (and how to get it to work), I can't really help you.  IRC may be restricted to downloading a client (such as mIRC). -- 02:53, 5 May 2008 (CDT)
 * Sorry to but in but there is another client here that Skizzerz made if you want to go to IRC without a client.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 04:08, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

For the http://irc.abxy.org client, the password is optional and only required if you registered your nickname. But please put your strategywiki username in the username field, then click on "advanced" and change #abxy to #strategywiki :) I'll be getting a client for strategywiki set up pretty soon as well. -- 18:15, 6 May 2008 (CDT)
 * Sorry, I went to bed. I log onto IRC whenever I'm editing, or whenever (like now).  -- 19:41, 6 May 2008 (CDT)

Compilations
Hi Rob. I'm having a little trouble understanding your latest thoughts on my talk page, but I think I know what you're getting at. I mean, we have Category:Compilation, and I think you definitely understand that games should only be categorized under a system if that actual title came out for that system. e.g. Pac-Man is not categorized for the Sega Dreamcast or N64 just because it appeared on Namco Museum. The only problem is with games like Space Invaders and Galaga and Centipede which companies like Hasbro "bring back" with slightly different game play under the old title. Those are the real pain for me. What I do, is I always do a search for the name of a particular game on GameFAQs because, like it or not, they happen to be one of the best reference databases around. Of course, that's probably how you ended up identifying Space Invaders as belonging to N64 and GBC, so it's not perfect. Another site that I loathe, but use regularly is Moby Games, since they tend to group games not only by title, but by series (so on Moby Games, the N64 and GBC versions of Space Invaders are listed independently of the originals). Did this address your concern? Or was there something else? Procyon (Talk) 16:46, 7 May 2008 (CDT)


 * Hey, just a quick note about Pac-Man Arrangement; it's actually not a remake, it's just that the author did a terrible job with that article. I've been meaning to go back and fix it, but then again I've been meaning to go back and fix a lot of things, but all I tend to do is stick to my schedule of games :P  Pac-Man Arrangement is actually kind of cool ^_^  If you know how to use MAME, grab Namco Classics Collection Vol. 2 from here, and fire it up in MAME to see what it's like.  Procyon (Talk) 10:08, 8 May 2008 (CDT)

What I do to identify identical releases is check GameFAQs' screenshots (the "pics" link). If the graphics are too different to be a straight port that's a good indication it's separate, although in some cases the game itself is still different (Gauntlet (NES) has the same graphic elements as Gauntlet but completely different levels). If an entry doesn't have screens I check the release data (if the developer and genre are both the same there's a good chance it's the same game) and then look at VGMuseum or the like for visual confirmation. System-specific sites such as arcade-history (arcade) and Hall of Light (Amiga) are very good at correctly listing ports and so are a great place to start looking for any game that has been released on those systems. I use MobyGames as a reluctant last resort: they helpfully group identical releases together, but they often have huge mistakes--Disney's Aladdin, for instance, is in fact three completely different games. Wikipedia is also prone to this problem due to some contributors using MobyGames for release data. If all else fails I turn to emulation to find out first-hand, but that can be very time-consuming. Anyway, that's what I do, hopefully some of that is useful to you. :) GarrettTalk 17:08, 8 May 2008 (CDT)

Articles that need to be created
I omitted Steam and other currently active platforms from the listing because they keep growing and the lists would constantly be out of date (these systems get new releases sometimes as often as every week). GarrettTalk 16:51, 9 May 2008 (CDT)

Jajamaru Jr Denshouki Jaleco Memorial‎
Hi Rob. I wish you were right about that game, and that it was just a compilation. Unfortunately, it actually contains a full new game in its own right. But leave the cs stage, it's not a big deal. I just won't be getting to that game any time soon. Procyon (Talk) 16:47, 19 May 2008 (CDT)

Featured articles
Hi Rob. Thanks for your comments about the older games. I agree with you that it would be nice if we could increase the number of featured articles. I think the problem is that the consensus is it would be nice if we could highlight more... "relevant" titles. That is, titles that are a little more modern and mainstream. Otherwise it looks like we have a retro bent, which is not our intention. I dunno, I'm all for your idea, I just haven't tried to "push" too hard to see that happen. I'm responsible for more enough featured articles too, I'm not trying to be a glory hound :) But I'd say if you feel strongly enough about it, bring it up on the forums.  See ya, Procyon (Talk) 14:41, 28 July 2008 (CDT)

Disambig
Shadowrun just needs disambig links at the top of the page to the other games with the same name using game disambig. -- Prod (Talk) 09:07, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

Twilight Princess
I am quite aware that they need images. However, it is quite difficult taking images from games without any emulators. Please check the "todo" lists on the guide's talk page before adding templates, since the issue might already be on that list, in which case the authors are already aware of it and are working on it. You don't need to add the templates to the pages, and in fact, I would prefer if you didn't. Since I'm already aware of the issue, it doesn't need to be broadcast to the people reading the guide, who may then be turned off since it may not be all that "complete" or whatever in their eyes. As such, I've reverted your edits. I hope you understand. -- 09:53, 14 August 2008 (CDT)

Kid Icarus
The shop code is listed on the rooms page where the shop is discussed. I don't think that B,A,B continue code applies to the American and European versions of the game, you are given the option to continue as soon as you die. The guide isn't quite finished yet, there are a few details that I need to add. Procyon (Talk) 09:00, 21 August 2008 (CDT)

Re: Uncharted: Drake's Fortune/Trophies
Prod already agreed to a trophies category on the forums. Achievements subpages have their own category, move list subpages have their own category, so it makes sense to have a category for trophies subpages. Wanderer 04:27, 23 August 2008 (CDT)

Racing
Racing needs info. It needs to be categorized, but even more importantly it needs a description because I don't know what this game is. Tamsoft's wikipedia article doesn't even have the game listed so... Is it real? -- 16:44, 26 August 2008 (CDT)

AQ/ToC
Well, here are the listings of some of the stuff in AQ (I'm not sure if they are complete/up to date): http://www.battleon.com/info/. I'm not sure how to proceed. -- 13:28, 29 August 2008 (CDT)