StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal/2006/January

Registered users only
After having a few vandals deface articles already, I've configured the software to only allow registered users to edit pages. Does anyone see any problems in this? --Echelon 18:04, 6 January 2006 (PST)
 * Actually, I much prefer this prerequisite. I often forget to login, and the system serves as a much-needed reminder. ^_^ Spiritsnare Flux 07:10, 9 January 2006 (PST)

Question about +
I was noticing that there's no link to talk at the top of the page or an "+" for adding new sections. Are they in the other, wikipedia styles? or are they in a part of the preferences I havent found yet? It would be great if they were there by default -JinFX 18:27, 7 January 2006 (PST)
 * The talk page is on the right in the Toolbox under 'Discussion'. I'm not sure about the '+' though. Jackhynes 18:30, 7 January 2006 (PST)
 * The problem is that the Community Issues is not under the Talk namespace, so you won't see the '+'s, you wont seem them unless you login either too.
 * O, I forgot the + is only in the talk pages.--JinFX 01:42, 8 January 2006 (PST)

Styling conventions?
I'm trying to make a couple pages (mainly the front page and community portal) more readable, but shouldn't the guides have some sort of styling/readability standard to respect? --Sakurina 17:03, 27 December 2005 (PST)
 * You know, perhaps we need to make a page discussing StrategyWiki readability standards or something. Spiritsnare 19:50, 2 January 2006 (PST)
 * Well, there seems to be 2 different styles so far. The 'book' style that is more of a walkthrough (see Zelda: Majora's Mask), and the 'FAQ' style that is just a single page with information thrown onto it (see Mario Kart DS). Surely both formats can be improved upon, but for now the styles seem fine. --Hack 12:14, 3 January 2006 (PST)
 * It does seem that there are two styles of page. Obviously not all games will require the "book format", though I really like that format the best. "faq" format is best suited for racing games, puzzle games, and the like. Conventions for both must be established, though right now I am concerned most with the "book format" conventions (and that is what I am working on most). --Echelon 20:41, 5 January 2006 (PST)
 * I don't really like the "book format" layout; it seems a little unweildy, somehow. Maybe the OoT FAQ just hasn't been totally implemented "right" yet, but the way it's split up doesn't make much sense to me. If you're going to go as far as to start breaking the thing up, the main walkthrough should be split up as well, to allow direct access to specific dungeons/areas - and I'd have the ToC on the "front" page. I'd have taken out the ASCII art, too - some of it looks passable, but other bits aren't lining up right and it looks pretty bad, IMO. --Aniki21 11:58, 6 January 2006 (GMT)
 * What you saw was something that was copied directly from GameFAQs without permission--we have since removed it. We'll be doing exactly as you say, creating a page for each area or dungeon. As of yet, we have yet to complete the Zelda article, but it will serve as a future reference point. --Echelon 18:55, 6 January 2006 (PST)
 * As for a page discussing standards, we can make one once they're established. --Echelon 20:41, 5 January 2006 (PST)
 * Guide/Standards and conventions -- it's not much, but we can work on it. --Echelon 02:29, 10 January 2006 (PST)

Glitched pages?
After trying to add the WIP template to Yoshi Touch & Go, I realized it took me to the blank page Yoshi Touch which is not the page I want to see... --Sakurina 17:03, 27 December 2005 (PST)
 * It's Dreamhost's fault--they have mod_security enabled. I'll try to take it off. --Echelon 20:23, 27 December 2005 (PST)
 * Can't fix. PHP as CGI doesn't get the PATH_INFO array, and I can't hack apache to use MediaWiki's fix. We'll have to do without them for now. Bummer. --Echelon 20:54, 27 December 2005 (PST)
 * Do you mean the pathinfo function or the $_ENV['PATH_INFO'] environment variable? pathinfo takes an argument and does return an array but the environment variable should not be an array.  I am running PHP as CGI on Dreamhost and I am able to access the PATH_INFO env variable correctly.  There is some more info here  about this issue as well - does that help at all? --Midblue 07:27, 6 January 2006 (PST)

Now I can't seem to be able to access Yoshi Touch & Go at all... it takes me to Yoshi Touch. I'm kind of hoping it isn't gone... I did type all that stuff out... and now the issue is cleared up, awesome. --Hack 23:35, 27 December 2005 (PST)
 * hack, It isn't gone. I have the source from the page. --Sakurina 19:52, 29 December 2005 (PST)

Preventing *vandals* from posting spoilers
This will no doubt be important in the future, but how will we prevent someone from editing any page and posting spoilers in them? Should we lock guides when they're completed? I wish there were a way to mark pages as protected yet still allow edits, then we could manually approve edits made to guides that are already complete. --Echelon 21:26, 5 January 2006 (PST)
 * I suppose preventing spoilers will be quite difficult without some type of moderation. Maybe we should stick with a 'trust' policy for now, hoping that people won't throw spoilers in any place. If it gets out of hand then we can start protecting specific/completed guides, like how Wikipedia takes protective action when vandalism occurs. --Hack 02:53, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * What about a dedicated page for hints? Much like the way Universal Hint System is layed out, you only get the amount of hints you need. But this may get out of hand too. --RandomSkratch 09:44, 6 January 2006 (PST)
 * My concern with that model is that someone could still come along and edit any hint page with "Darth Vadar is Luke's Daddy!!!11" etc. I personally hate spoilers, and I would certainly hope that no one ever has a ruined experience with a game because of our wiki. Anyway, I'm still not certain quite how to deal with this. --Echelon 12:24, 6 January 2006 (PST)
 * Gee, thanks for spoiling it for me! ;) --nonesuch
 * For starters, maybe a ban on the first blatant offense? (Blatant as in just editing a post to insert spoiler(s) in.) --Spiritsnare Flux 07:21, 9 January 2006 (PST)
 * The first time I see blatant vandalism, I will probably issue a temp editing ban and leave a note on the user's talk page about it. --Doozer 10:53, 9 January 2006 (PST)


 * If you give forewarning about the Spoilers, and go "Heyo, there are spoilers here" exactly how would it be bad to have spoilers? Wouldn't it be the fault of the illiterate son of a gun who didn't see the mighty SPOILER ALERT? --ArlanKels
 * No, my fear is that vandals would deliberately edit spoilers to make them noticable on the main page or introduction for the guides. This would obviously be a bad thing. --Echelon 18:01, 6 January 2006 (PST)
 * Vandalism is going to be impossible to completely avoid, but hopefully people will begin watching the recent edits for changes. Right now it shouldn't be too hard to catch vandals and deal with them, since there aren't many pages yet. As the user base grows, however, users are going to have to start policing themselves. --Doozer 21:32, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * What about codes for games (all weapons, full health, etc)? Are these considered spoilers / unfitting for this type of wiki? --RandomSkratch 13:08, 7 January 2006 (PST)
 * Codes are not really spoilers but should be placed in their own section of each guide. --Doozer 17:22, 7 January 2006 (PST)
 * If you're going to put cheats in, I guess you could use a separate page - like Doom/Cheats or something. It could even be used for "single-page" games, to keep cheats off the main guide. I know that I, for one, sometimes have a hard time not using cheats once I know what they are. --Aniki21 09:41, 15 January 2006 (PST)


 * Remember, there will be more "good" editors then "bad" ones, and because anonymous editing is not allowed on StWi, very few will jump through hoops to be a minor nuisance.

So, like Wikipedia, StWi should have a spoiler template that prints out the very simple "[b]Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.[b]" when inserted into an article, so readers will be forewarned. If a vandal comes along and changes it, those watching the page can come back, fix it, and suspend/ban the vandal. For more information on how wikipedia does this, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Spoiler_warning --Tapo 16:24, 7 January 2006 (EST)
 * I've already created a template but it's probably a little too garish for normal use. I think I'll tone it down a bit. --Doozer 17:22, 7 January 2006 (PST)

Import from Wikibooks
As I have just been doing, I suggest people go onto http://en.wikibooks.org, look around for strategy guides, and put them on strategywiki. They're license and format compatible, but they're aren't a lot of them. Ones that do exist need work.

As a sidenote, the Total Annihilation wikibooks article would make a very good "book format" guide on Strategywiki. Could someone convert that? I gotta get back to work. :P --Tapo 10:32, 6 January 2006 (EST)


 * If you want to see all the Wikibooks that could be used the category is here there may also be some more wiki format walkthroughs that we can use at Wikicities.com. Jackhynes 08:30, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * On a completely off-topic note, Wikibooks has been considering moving all game-related books elsewhere. This is the subject of a heated debate at Wikibooks . --Echelon 19:00, 6 January 2006 (PST)

New to Wikis
Hi, I'm fairly new to the Wiki system. I've been using Wikipedia as a resource for many years, however have never been involved in editting. I'd love to contribute to this project, however I don't know how to add a new game-guide. (Seems like I can only edit existing ones.)
 * To create a new guide, you can do it 2 ways:
 * 1) Edit an existing page, and create/follow a link to a non-existant page. For example, I could create a link to Mario Kart Double Dash on the Mario Kart DS page (remember there is no MKDD page). I can then click that MKDD link, and it will take me to a blank page where I can edit it and create the page.
 * 2) Type the page into the address bar. Let's say I want to create a page for Shadow Hearts. I would simply type this in to the address bar: http://strategywiki.net/wiki/Shadow_Hearts -- that would bring me to a blank page where I can edit it. Note: Replace Shadow_Hearts with the name of the game/article you want to create. An underscore _ is basically a space, so the Shadow_Hearts URL would display the article title as Shadow Hearts on my newly created article.
 * After editing a blank page, it is automatically created. --Hack 09:15, 7 January 2006 (PST)

Okay, thanks for that. And as an extra note, will there be an IRC chat or forum so that we can communicate other than this? I am very familiar with forum software, especially phpBB, and if you don't want it hosted here taking up the bandwidth, I can host it.
 * There is an IRC channel (info on the homepage). As for a forum... well thats what Talks are for. Although some type of forum might be later needed. --Hack 10:03, 7 January 2006 (PST)

Services category
Alright. So this new 'Services' category. I find it simply redundant. Having categories to name specific services is just going a little overboard. I mean, for example, Xbox 360 games from the Arcade service can only be played on the Xbox 360, so we don't need to add another category that just reminds us of that fact. Having the game guide categorized to the Xbox 360 platform is more than enough. While you can certainly mention on the game page that its available from a specific service(s), there is no need to further categorize them by the service(s). Any thoughts? --Hack 12:53, 9 January 2006 (PST)
 * I wholeheartedly agree with you. Not only are we adding too many categories--we're not giving them much thought. I think any new set of categories should be discussed by the comminity to judge their effectiveness. Maybe one day we will implement something like this. For now, however, I do not think it will happen. --Echelon 12:56, 9 January 2006 (PST)
 * I think it should be limited to gamesystems only and nog to the software on the system that alawys something to be played. An xbox 360 live arcade game is still an Xbox 360 game.
 * Services, Number of Players, and Resolution have been removed. We do not need to further complicate the categorization of game guides. Please do not create them again. Work with the categorizes that have already been created. --Hack 20:02, 9 January 2006 (PST)
 * Perhaps it's too early to introduce these categories, but I think they could have a potential use. Information like number of players and screen resolution are included on the back of game boxes, after all, and it might be useful for some people to search via those criteria. It might also be useful to have categories for series like Castlevania, Zelda, Mega Man, etc. just to make finding things easy. But I agree that, at least for now, we should focus on the basics. --Ashandarei 18:57, 10 January 2006 (PST)

Talk
a) You need to add some sort of a menu to find games. b) Why am I able to edit this?
 * a) I agree - very difficult for new users to find or add any other games other than those listed under collaborations.
 * b)This is a wiki and therefore can be edited by anyone. This page is a discussion page for, I'm guessing, the developement of this website. To see a fully functioning wiki see http://en.wikipedia.org . Jackhynes 08:08, 6 January 2006 (PST)

c) This is a great idea. However, with only one page per game, how are we going to deal with multiformat games? I know that we could say 'press the action' button instead of 'press A', but it would probably deter some users. There's a chance to make a really incredible Wiki here, we just need to lay some ground rules before it takes off. Thanks, I'll register soon.
 * I'm also not sure how this will be tackled. There may be some kind of template augmentation - if anyone has the skills? Jackhynes 08:20, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * Why not make the first page people click to a disambiguation page, where it just says click here for the PS2 version, here for the Xbox version, and etc? --Slacker 08:44, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Considering that we've just started, there are still lots of different aspects to work out. With everyone's help, we should be able to figure this all out.
 * Games list/directory. As a fix for now, to find games, you can check the Works in Progress page. Any games that include the WIP template will be displayed there. Sooner or later we'll get to creating a more in-depth category system, maybe to include platforms, etc.
 * Multiformat games. That is going to be somewhat difficult. Besides throwing them into specific categories, I suppose everyone can just be told to add something to their title. Maybe for example: Resident Evil 4 (GCN). Or something like that. A disambiguation page is good as well. --Hack 09:48, 6 January 2006 (PST)

Why don't you just create category sections, so that for example Resident Evil 4 would be [Category : Action-Adventure, Horror, Playstation 2, Gamecube]? You could then just make links on the main page to say [search by system] or [search by genre], which would just lead to a disambiguation page that collects specific categories. --Mr Saeba 16:30, 6 January 2006 (PST)

Site Navigation
This site looks like a good idea! However, as a user visiting the main page, there's no way at all to get to guides apart from a search. Tagging guides with a platform category and linking to those from the main page would help. -- Mithent 09:25, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * Yeah this is an excellent point. I came here looking for a list of games but was unable to find it.  Categories like Genre and System would be a plus.  Finally with regards to the search feature, any way of making a firefox search plugin for this site?  --RandomSkratch 09:48, 6 January 2006 (PST)
 * Firefox plugin? Maybe in the future. --Echelon 21:48, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * Sorry Echelon, I don't know if I was completely understood. In Firefox, at the top of the screen on the right hand side, there is a little dropdown for quick searches on specific sites.  Google, dictionary, wikipedia, etc.  I was inquiring about one for this site. --RandomSkratch 13:02, 7 January 2006 (PST)


 * Done. The categories are now listed on the main page. --Echelon 21:48, 6 January 2006 (PST)

Your best bet to make this a little more navigable is to add prominent links to the categories page on the Main_Page.

Also, you should create categories for the various platforms and assign the articles to the proper system. You could then include those links on the main page (click here for Xbox, here for PS2, etc) instead.

--Slacker 08:43, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * The problem with this is that the games are mostly exactly the same apart from the button control. If there was a PS2 version and an Xbox version of the same game neither article would get the full attention it should have. If there was one version then all efforts would be put into making it the best it could be. If there were 5 different platforms for the game and a user found that he knew a certain aspect of the game then it would only be placed in his platform of choice and the other platforms would suffer because of it? Although I cannot think of an easy solution. Jackhynes 09:18, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * Most games are the same, across different platforms, aside from control schemes. Which I why I think everything should just stick to a single guide, and to include sections that go over differences (controls, special features, etc.). --Hack 09:48, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * I agree with that. It will make for a better overall article. Jackhynes 11:24, 6 January 2006 (PST)


 * That's what we'll do then. --Echelon 17:57, 6 January 2006 (PST)

Yes but there are some games that have the same name but are completely different. Even sometimes the same platform might have a game with the same name as a different game on that platform (I'm thinking PC here) but it's a totally different game. So it would be best if there was a guideline on how to handle those situations.


 * In that situation, we'll do a disambiguation. A handheld Spiderman game is different than a console one, so we'll specify the name of the platform in the article title if it warrents it. --Echelon 17:57, 6 January 2006 (PST)

Regarding copying from Wikibooks/Wikipedia
Hey, there's a little bit of a hitch here guys. The GFDL requires credit to be given, which you aren't currently doing. Please see the crediting examples on Wikibooks or Wikipedia for more on this. About also needs to be changed to reflect this.

Also I personally think it's silly to mirror content that another site already has editable; all you'll end up with is different improvements to the same source work on each wiki it's been copied to. Gameinfo in comparison merely crosslinks to the other wikis' guides.

Anyway, if you could clear that up that would be great. Thanks! Garrett 20:05, 10 January 2006 (PST)
 * I believe that the guides will receive much more attention - which they need, on Stategy Wiki. There is a dedicated team, all of whom are game enthusiasts, at Strategy Wiki whereas Wikibooks would not normally be a gamers hangout. Jackhynes 09:08, 11 January 2006 (PST)


 * I will get on this issue immediately by creating a template to show that a source comes from Wikibooks. In the end, I agree with both Garrett and Jack on certain issues. Garret stresses that it would be redundant to have two branches of the same source--I agree. Jack believes the guides will get more attention here--I also agree. Right now, I think I have a possible solution. I would say that we keep the wikibooks guides for the time being until StrategyWiki has established itself. Once we have done so, we may work on creating our own originals for the guides from Wikibooks. This is only a thought, but I think it addresses both issues. For now, I will merely apply the templates to denote the source of these guides. Thank you Garrett for letting this be known to us. --Echelon 12:16, 11 January 2006 (PST)


 * If you see an article that has been taken from Wikibooks, please use Template:Wikibooks --Echelon 12:22, 11 January 2006 (PST)


 * You're welcome. The issue of how sites should link to each other still needs to be addressed though, even if Wikibooks' content were permanently moved here. Hm. Garrett 13:26, 11 January 2006 (PST)


 * I have modified the template as I believe that reference/link to the GNU FDL is needed when using material from Wikibooks. (From the article on Wikibooks)
 * Use on the Internet


 * For specifics read: GNU Free Documentation License


 * 1. Mention Wikibooks as the source (not mandatory; but appreciated)
 * 2. Provide a functional link back to the Wikibooks book or Wikibooks module (this satisfies the author credit requirement of our license)
 * 3. State that the text is available under the GNU Free Documentation License
 * 4. Link to a copy of the GNU FDL license (preferably stored on your own server).
 * 5. Your version of the text must be machine readable (meaning you cannot prevent others from copying the text)


 * I just want to say that I also agree with Garett about problems with having two copies (it was my original argument against having a different guide for the same game on different platforms). Despite this I believe the guides at Wikibooks are contributed too far too seldom and lots of the information comes from a small number of users (i.e. Garett). Therefore the guides will not become stale here as they have at Wikibooks. Jackhynes 13:34, 11 January 2006 (PST)

Google Ads to help fund the site?
Wikicities has a Google Ads sidebar. You've already got this side area blank, so why not put some ads in there? No matter how small the income if they help keep the site afloat it's a Very Good Thing. Garrett 13:26, 11 January 2006 (PST)
 * Right now, I think we'll be okay. In the future, however, we'll see. I know that the TV IV Wiki had problems with funding, so they implemented Google ads. For now, I want to keep the pages ad-free. --Echelon 21:14, 12 January 2006 (PST)
 * It will probably become neccasary if the site becomes extremely popular and we need a powerful server for it but i don't think we need them right now.

Developer Pages?
Do we want pages for developers/publishers and the like? Right now I don't think there are any, but I think it would be a necessary addition. --Poody
 * I think that's a great idea. I've been thinking of getting started on those but hadn't gotten around to it yet. If you want to begin making pages for publishers/studios then by all means please do! --Doozer 23:28, 8 January 2006 (PST)

Standards & Conventions
I think it's better to start addressing the issue of standards and conventions sooner rather than later. So, some of my initial suggestions: We should try to model information on Controls after a game's instruction booklet. Buttons should be in bold, and each function (if there is more than one) should be separated by a semicolon, with any side-notes about the control below and bulleted. See the Ocarina of Time page for a good example. Pictures should be relevant, important, and kept to a minimum. On the SSB.M page for example, the pictures of Mario, and Bowser crushing Kirby seem unnecessary to me, and they both have poor, uninformative captions. We should concentrate on informative pictures like maps first, I think. Objectivity needs to be kept in the guides while opinions like "Ness is the best character known to date" need to be kept out. Spelling and grammar need to be checked by everyone before they edit something, at least by just copying the text into MS Word and looking for any misspellings (that's what I do). Please also check capitalization of things like "Gold Skulltula." Although the strategy for the beginning of Ocarina of Time is more interesting to read than a simple "go here, do that", I think we should consider whether our primary purpose is to entertain, or provide useful information. Text like "but Link knows deep inside that this was not to be the happy day his friends would expect it to be" is unneeded and, even worse, is completely made up. No one knows what Link thinks, so don't write about it. -- Ashandarei 16:37, 8 January 2006 (PST)


 * Everything you bring up is very, very timely and couldn't have been better stated. The last statement was especially important, as that was more or less my fault. I'll get to work and address these issues, especially the editing standards which will need to be delt with ASAP. --Echelon 01:53, 9 January 2006 (PST)


 * On that first note: maybe we should develop an blank image of a controller have people use that template to make a image for Controls...because informative visuals are good. ;) --Spiritsnare Flux 07:16, 9 January 2006 (PST)
 * I would really like it if we did that. But we've got to find some good diagrams. --Echelon 11:44, 9 January 2006 (PST)
 * Perhaps we should use high quality scans of the controller diagrams in the manuals. A high-res scan, then clean it up in Photoshop/GIMP, and use it as a standard on all "Controls" pages.  I think it would also fly under | fair use laws. --StrandOfLight 19:48, 9 January 2006 (PST)
 * That would be great!! I can't get them myself, but three cheers to someone who does! What a teriffic way to do it. --Echelon 01:59, 10 January 2006 (PST)
 * Sounds good. There's already a vast number of scans at sites like http://www.replacementdocs.com and http://www.hqscans.org. You'd just need to extract the images with a PDF disassembler. It might also be beneficial to develop button graphics like these for cheats etc. rather than constantly writing out the textual equivalent. Garrett 13:23, 11 January 2006 (PST)
 * Regarding the controls layout, what about games which require more than one control system? For instance, Shenmue has different controls entirely while walking and fighting, and something like GTA:VC has different controls for different types of vehicles (aircraft vs regular cars or walking, for instance). It would seem unwieldy (not to mention heavy on bandwidth) to have several controller pictures labelled differently for these games. I know it's not going to be very common, but I'd still like it taken into consideration. --Aniki21 01:47, 13 January 2006 (PST)
 * And also on that note, things could get complicated further by multi-format titles with multiple control styles. Not to mention PC games. --Aniki21 02:23, 13 January 2006 (PST)

Console Designation in Title?
Should there be a standard for including console names in game titles? There are often differences between the each console's edition, so perhaps we should create a Disambiguation page for each multiple-console title? Perhaps the title listing in every index page can link to the disambiguation, with "Title Name (Console)" for the actual item. If the differences are extremely minor, then perhaps a single guide page, and a separate "Differences" section or page. Thoughts? --StrandOfLight 01:55, 8 January 2006 (PST)
 * Yeah, this is most definitely what we shall be doing. If the differences are minor, there will only be an addition of a "versions" page. If the games are entirely different, however, they will be in the wikipedia-style disambiguation. Good to state it for the record. We should put this in our policy somewhere. --Echelon 02:05, 8 January 2006 (PST)
 * Aside from game controls, special moves (fighting games), and cheat codes; do any games actually exist where the plot is different from system to system?--RandomSkratch 14:28, 8 January 2006 (PST)
 * Sometimes a title can be deceiving. Note many movie- and TV-licensed games appear on many consoles including handhelds. King Kong is one example. The Game Boy Advance version of that is most certainly different from the Xbox 360 version. We should have one guide for each version of the game that is distinct enough from the other guides to need completely new information. However, there are times when a game is mostly the same but not quite. Silent Hill 2 is one example; when it came out for the Xbox it had some additional content, if I remember correctly. That should be included in the "Silent Hill 2" guide but the fact that a section only applies to one version should be noted. --Doozer 20:47, 8 January 2006 (PST)
 * Should we implement this right away then, in terms of renaming all of the existing guides? Also, should we start recording this sort of policy in StrategyWiki policy pages? --StrandOfLight 19:35, 9 January 2006 (PST)
 * I just started Guide/Standards and conventions. I won't be able to edit it until tomorrow afternoon, but by all means feel free to jump in. We need some standards in place. --Echelon 02:30, 10 January 2006 (PST)
 * The problem with this page, eche, is that what if different regions mean completely different games? And each game has multiple regions on different systems... Take DDR as an example. Dance Dance Revolution/Disambiguations --Sakurina 18:53, 11 January 2006 (PST)

Series Guide?
Should there be guides for game series (Zelda, Final Fantasy, Warcraft...)?
 * I think so. It remains to be seen how we'll accomplish this, however. I'll be working on Ocarina of Time first, followed by Majora's Mask. At that time I'll find a way to link the Zelda games together. --Echelon 13:25, 7 January 2006 (PST)


 * Perhaps we should think of incorporating Wikipedia entries for the game series in some fashion? Either a link or the actual article might work. StrandOfLight 01:37, 8 January 2006 (PST)


 * While we're not an informational database on games (there's already a wiki just for that, and there's also wikipedia), we can incorporate any GFDL materials. I would suggest that we use what we can while still maintaining a mostly-strategy guides policy. Some background information can be nice, but let's not import purely informational articles about the history of, say, Mario Bros. At least that's my two cents. Echelon 02:10, 8 January 2006 (PST)
 * On that note, I recommend an "external links" section for single-page guides or "More information" page that includes "external links" for games in the book format.


 * Ooo I like colons. Anywho, check out Final Fantasy or Zelda.  Are those what you're talking about?  You could always include extra pages relating to what links them all together, etc. -- ArlanKels
 * Or, have you seen the Wikipedia pages? Look at the bottom. I like how they do those series boxes. --Echelon 05:39, 18 January 2006 (PST)


 * Well, are we talking about release history of games and plot, or how the games connect to each other? Because, I can easily see speculation thrown around with certain serieses, such as the Megaman series... --Netmonmatt 08:19, 24 January 2006 (PST)


 * I don't see much discussion going on here about how game plots tie together - for all intents and purposes, the games are entirely separate entities from a strategy guide point of view. There's likely to be little covered, over-arching plot-wise, in these guides - or so I'd have thought. There's plenty of timeline speculation on Wikipedia I know, but trying to compile coherent connections for franchises seems to be outside StrategyWiki's purview. (Apologies if I'm overstepping my bounds in regards to StrategyWiki's "purpose") --aniki21 08:24, 24 January 2006 (PST)


 * Yes, they would be considered separate for the most part... But what about some games like the .Hack series? Would they be considered separate, as events and actions from one game carry over to the next? Or Wild Arms 4, where you can upload data from Wild Arms: Alter Code F to unlock items and extras? It makes me wonder how in depth you would get in those scenarios... --Netmonmatt 08:31, 24 January 2006 (PST)


 * How in-depth are the changes/carry-overs we're talking about, though? For instance, in Shenmue 2 (DC), if you picked up any extra moves, capsule toys or whatever in the original you were able to access them in the sequel, but the plot remained identical in Shenmue 2 regardless of what happened in the first game. Is there a bigger impact on the later .hack games from the earlier ones? --aniki21 09:00, 24 January 2006 (PST)

Console Naming Convention
Looking at the Categories page, it looks to me like we're lacking a clear naming policy for consoles. My concern is that the systems will not have consistent names; some systems will have the name of the company that developed it prefixed (for example, Sony PlayStation) and some will not (for example, simply PlayStation). Unfortunately this is a somewhat confusing issue because so many people are used to saying the full, developer-prefixed name of the system.

I personally think that we should avoid prefixing the company name wherever possible. There are some systems for which it is obviously appropriate, like on many Nintendo Systems ("Nintendo Entertainment System", "Super Nintendo Entertainment System", "Nintendo 64"), but if the name is recognizable enough without the company name, we should drop it, leaving for example names like "Genesis" or "PlayStation 3".

Please let me know what you think. --Doozer 17:06, 10 January 2006 (PST)


 * Systems should have a "long name" for category and a "short name" for disambiguation. Nintendo 64 and N64, Nintendo DS and NDS, Playstation 2 and PS2. So on and so forth... --Echelon 17:52, 10 January 2006 (PST)


 * But should that be "Sony PlayStation 2" or just "PlayStation 2"? :P --Doozer 19:34, 11 January 2006 (PST)


 * It should probably be PlayStation 2. We can drop the names Sony, and Microsoft. Nintendo and Sega seem to be the only ones who actually tack their company names onto the actual system. --Hack 19:56, 11 January 2006 (PST)


 * I think the Systems just should have the most reconizable name (NES, Super Nintendo, Nintendo 64, Nintendo DS...)

 I also think the systems should be under who makes them (Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft) and shouldn't be separated into handhelds and normal consoles! Here are some systems your missing:

Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Atari 7800 (you have atari but there was never an "Atari" console, there are more, but im not getting into the neddy gritty unless you want me to) Sega Saturn, Sega CD, Sega 32X PC! and if its "sega dreamcast" then it should be "sega game gear" '

I also think we should have a little info about each system (year released, blah)

--User:XfollowthereaperX 1:00, 14 January 2006 (PST)
 * I've put together a (very basic) System template for the console pages. There's not a lot of info on it, but I didn't think we'd need much else - this is a games wiki, not a hardware one after all. --Aniki21 10:10, 15 January 2006 (PST)

Templates?
How much do we want to use templates? I've made a couple that I've been using on my Shenmue guide - mainly the Template:Header Nav template that I made to make a more consistent header navigation across all multi-page games. I threw together Template:System and Template:Company templates for those pages as well; they've not got a lot of information on them at the moment, but I figured we don't need a lot about either, since this is a games wiki rather than a hardware one. --Aniki21 06:13, 16 January 2006 (PST)

I just made Template:Delete, but I don't know how best to implement it, so I'll sit back if others want to improve. <("<) Alex (>")> 20:36, 22 March 2006 (PST)
 * The Header Nav template was sheer genius. Considering how many navigation templates would probably be created if someone didn't come up with it, great job on that. The ConsoleInfo and Company templates are really great too. I'd use them, and have already started implementing the Header Nav template. --Hack 09:31, 16 January 2006 (PST)
 * Why, thank you. :"D It seemed like a much easier thing to implement at this early stage than trying to do it months down the line when we have hundreds of FAQs each with a different *_Nav template taking up database space. --aniki21 04:05, 17 January 2006 (PST)
 * Much appreciated! :) It's a brilliant idea that will save us from fixing our mistakes down the road. --Echelon 05:35, 18 January 2006 (PST)
 * Hm, nice indeed! I wonder if it should have links to other common things though, like Cheats and Glitches or something. Things that every guide will have a page on anyway. GarrettTalk 11:56, 18 January 2006 (PST)

Possible collaboration with vgmaps ?
Vgmaps has a lot of the gigantic maps of games like the legend of zelda: link to the past and other topview or sidescroller games and it might be useful to have some parts of the maps on strategy guides if strategy wiki ever does old games like that. Im not affiliated with Vgmaps, im just suggesting.

-- Blendmaster


 * The main problem with this is to what degree we can push our "fair use" claims by hosting what might equate to up to 50% of the game's tile content. The second is that these people have contributed their maps to the site probably expecting it to be the only site hosting them, so I assume we'd have to contact each of them individually as well. Personally I'd prefer we restrict it to maps that help demonstrate a secret or solution, such as this. GarrettTalk 12:22, 16 January 2006 (PST)


 * I'd have to agree with Garrett in that maps should only be used when absolutely necessary. Otherwise, we're just wasting the reader's time, bandwidth, and being redundant. One thing I am already concerned with is that I may have gone overboard with the images in the Zelda guide already. We should probably all peer review the first crop of completed guides so we get a feel of what exactly works and what doesn't--we need to know when we're going beyond what is necessary. --Echelon 21:07, 18 January 2006 (PST)


 * The only thing I'd say about the number of images in the OoT guide is that I'd be afraid people might expect that to be the norm after reading it - especially after it's being pushed as the "example" for multi-page guides. The GBA, N64, SNES and other consoles all have easily-accessible emulators that can be used for screenshots, but games for newer consoles like the X360 or even as old as the Dreamcast aren't as easy to get running on a PC, so getting screenshots that are a) relevant to the section and b) don't have watermarks is going to be extremely difficult. --aniki21 04:01, 19 January 2006 (PST)


 * I came across VGMaps yesterday, and my first thought was that it could be a useful resource for SW. I agree with Garrett that it should only be for solutions and what not, but it is definitely a resource to consider. What does everyone else think? --Irish Ninja 22:35, 16 January 2006 (PST)


 * VGMaps seems, on first glance, to cover mostly sidescrolling games. No offence to anyone, but the directions for those are pretty simple - run from left to right, occasionally jumping. Their maps for Zelda are pretty useful (although some could be cropped down a little), but how many sidescrolling games are really going to need a map? --aniki21 02:36, 17 January 2006 (PST)


 * If VGMaps would be willing to release their works to us for unlimited use, we could definitely use them, otherwise we'll have to make our own images. The reason for this is that I'm not sure if verbatim copying would be alright. This would save us a lot of time and effort, if we could use them. As Aniki said, however, we shouldn't use maps where they are not required for clarification. There is such a thing as overdoing it. --Echelon 05:34, 18 January 2006 (PST)


 * If we got permission to use them, we could always crop them and draw lines and stuff on them to help show solutions. Its not like we would just put a giant map up on a page. --blendmaster 12:10, 21 January 2006 (PST)


 * A-like so: [[Image:Earthbound-thebeginning.gif|center]]

i used this for my earthbound guide. the arrows are the main path and the numbers corespond to sections in the guide. the page I use it on is EarthBound/The Beginning. --blendmaster 21:17, 4 February 2006 (PST)

Guide completeness designation
I think it would be really good to have icons (as in the ones WikiBooks has) to specify guide completion levels. It could aid in identifying the guides that need the most immediate work. Would you all agree? I'm thinking of adding it to the all_games_nav template as an optional parameter. On that note, are there any logical tags for templtaes? --Echelon 21:14, 18 January 2006 (PST)
 * I've added your "complete" indicator to a version of my Header Nav template at Template:P/aniki - you can see it in place on Shenmue/Characters. The one issue I could see with this is that you'd have to change the variable on every page if you want to implement them in that way. I guess you could just put it on the index page for the guide, though. --aniki21 03:57, 19 January 2006 (PST)
 * I tried furiously last night to figure out how to work optional parameters in templates, but the syntax only works in MediaWiki 1.6--which isn't even released. I tried all kinds of "alternative" methods, but in the end nothing worked. I suggest we leave Header Nav alone and create a new version that requires the completeness indicator, perhaps Header Nav2 or something. And yes, I would also recommend adding this only to the front pages of guides. --Echelon 17:56, 19 January 2006 (PST)
 * Check out Wikipedia's Infobox CVG template. It uses optional parameters, BUT the "word=" part must still be inserted every time you use the template. GarrettTalk 20:44, 19 January 2006 (PST)
 * I've adjusted Template:P/aniki again a little - like Garrett says, you still need to put the "num=" in, but if you leave it blank it automatically puts in the 0p image. It's in place on the Shenmue/Table of Contents page for now. --aniki21 02:33, 20 January 2006 (PST)

Controller Button Images
I think it might be good to have little images for button names to make them stand out a little bit more.

So, I made a set of Gamecube buttons in SVG. You can see them [here]. They are 48x48 but they were all made in svg so i can always resize them. the original svg, if anyone wants to look at it, is [here].

They are losely based off the icons for the buttons in the Super Smash Melee manual but as they are just button pictures, there shouldn't really be copyright issues right?

I have all the buttons and images for all eight directions on the control stick (normal and smash) and cstick. i even have dpad directions which could probably be used for older games too.

should i upload them? --blendmaster 17:52, 21 January 2006 (PST)


 * That looks great! I don't know if it will, but those images have the potential to be a very useful resource for guides. Even better if one could be made for other consoles (PS2, XBOX, etc.). My vote would be to upload it for communal use. What does everyone else think? --Irish Ninja 20:59, 21 January 2006 (PST)


 * I couldn't agree more--those look incredible! I say that we do use these as a community standard. Would you mind making these for some of the other consoles too? That would be a great project! --Echelon 22:00, 21 January 2006 (PST)


 * Sure thing! glad you like them. --blendmaster 22:13, 21 January 2006 (PST)

I uploaded them all! i just dominated the uploaded file list. the guide to the file names are on my user page. I can probably do some xbox and ps2 ones soon. if anyone has any suggestions on how i make them look, feel free to comment. --blendmaster 22:28, 21 January 2006 (PST)


 * Hmm, maybe i should make them a bit smaller. they kind of skew the text. also, Should I remove the text button name entireley, put the image and the button, or put the text in the button caption? One other thing, would it be possible for anyone to make an extention to insert the button images automatically instead of linking each one? --blendmaster 23:20, 21 January 2006 (PST)


 * I would have named them slightly differently - the GC isn't the only machine with an "X" button, after all. The PS, PS2, XBox, XBox 360, DS, and PSP all have one. Any other buttons that are uploaded should probably have a console designation (for instance, PS2X.png). I think some generic direction images wouldn't be a bad idea though - we hardly need to take up server space and bandwidth for unique buttons for each machine, unless there are very game-specific actions that wouldn't be served by a "generic" direction inidication (such as Smash Bros' Smash Attacks). --aniki21 06:10, 22 January 2006 (PST)


 * Hmm, i could since all the button names are pretty generic, i could just redo the buttons as generic and upload a revision of them. --blendmaster 11:43, 22 January 2006 (PST)


 * For the thumbstick and D-pad all you'd need to do is remove the GC-specific grip pattern and they'd fit anything from NES to 360. Differentiating between the stick movement force required is also a great idea. GarrettTalk 13:11, 22 January 2006 (PST)


 * Well, I'd have to differentiate somehow between two anlog sticks like the ps2's and xbox's. --blendmaster 17:21, 22 January 2006 (PST)


 * Oh, good point. Hm. Maybe you could mark them L and R? GarrettTalk 12:08, 23 January 2006 (PST)

I made some really small slightly more generic buttons, including ps2's buttons. I didn't convert them to png so its still in svg. If you have Firefox 1.5 then you can view them fine. this batch is all in 16x16 so it might fit better with text.

here they are: small generic buttons --blendmaster 18:41, 22 January 2006 (PST)


 * I uploaded the smaller buttons to replace the big gamecube ones. theyre not as big or pretty but they fit into the text a lot better. see Super Smash Bros Melee the Controls section for an example on how they look. --blendmaster 19:48, 22 January 2006 (PST)


 * I made a template for buttons. its pretty simple right now. its just Template:Button and useage is so for instance  would give


 * I like those - but the button colours might be confusing (yeah, I'm being picky). Case in point, the Dreamcast's A button is red, but the generic one here is green. I know there's a big "A" on it, but I can still see people going by the color rather than the lettering. Any chance of a colour-neutral version? --aniki21 03:34, 23 January 2006 (PST)


 * Blendmaster, awesome work. The buttons look amazing on the SSBM page, but I am worried about the amount of image tags needed; there must be a shortcut we can create to insert control images. Also, I think it might be necessary to have console specific buttons, at least for games like SSBM that appear on only one console. As good as the SSBM page looks, seeing yellow and blue Y and X buttons for a GameCube game is just plain weird, as would generic button images. Finally, might I suggest shrinking the button font slightly so that the letters do not intersect the outline of the button (for this reason the Z button looks better than A,B,X, & Y, imo). It might be more aesthetically pleasing. The R/L buttons are a bit blockish too. I do not mean to offend; I would not be able to make buttons as good as yours. I just want to mention my observations to help work out any kinks beforehand. --Ashandarei 12:53, 23 January 2006 (PST)


 * Sorry that the small buttons are not as good looking. its hard to make things look better when they're 16x16. i think 32x32 is about the best size for readability+fitting with the text. on the shortcut things, you can try the template i made, Template:Button . Its not a huge space inprovement but it helps. --blendmaster 15:11, 23 January 2006 (PST)


 * You could use the little ones for most of the page, and the big ones for the controls section. <("<) Alex (>")> 23:46, 22 March 2006 (PST)

PS2 buttons: [SVG format so use firefox]. i guess they could be used for ps1 and psp too.

Ok, standards. If we are going to have these buttons be used for all the consoles, then we need to set a standard for naming these things before i upload a batch of them again. Put your thoughts under the specific section.


 * Generic/platform Specific: I think, for asthetic purposes, they should be platform specific, if we have the space. Echelon, you're the admin, right? If you are, then i think you have most of the say on if we should use more or less space for button images.


 * Size: For text purposes, 16x16 looks great. the original 48x48 were a little big IMO. therefore ~32x32 should be a happy medium. A look at size comparison is here: [Size Comparison]
 * Naming: The key here is if we have generic images is to have short button names so not to clog up a page with image tags. But, if i can get a template together, then the button names shouldn't matter as much. One problem i encountered with templates on this site is though, that if you have an attribute just called "left" or "right", then it will treat it as an align and take the button out of the flow of the document. For that reason, a suggestion for naming would be:
 * Console - Type - direction or button name .png
 * Directions: r ru u lu l ld d rd
 * Button names:
 * xbox/360: a b x y l r white black start back, control1(push down), control2(push down)
 * ps2/ps/psp: x(should we call it an x or a cross?) square triangle circle start select l1 l2 l3(left anlog click) r1 r2 r3 (right anlog click)
 * gcube: a b x y z l r start
 * ds/gameboy: a b x y l r start select.
 * Go ahead and fill out any other specific buttonsets here.
 * Types: button or control(gamecube/psp) cstick(gamecube), control1(left anlog), control2(right anlog).
 * if named like that the template could go [[image:--.png| ]] so formatting would go  . Or, if noone minds lots of little templates we could make one for console specific, or even console and button or direction specific like Template:gamecube, Template:xbox or Template:gamecube for buttons and Template:control for directions with just the gamecube control stick so formatting would be more simple and template tags easier to read.
 * Showing Direction: I like the arrow under the control stick with the control stick tilted two, and the red smash and darker arrow for smashing, but does anyone else have an opinion on how to show direction? also, kind of on a side note, does any game actually use 8 directions for the Cstick on the gamecube?
 * There's one I can think of - Capcom VS SNK 2 EO. WildWeasel 09:19, 21 March 2006 (PST)

PS. Sorry if im using up a whole bunch of space on the community page. we could always move this maybe to my talk page or somthing if it gets too huge. --blendmaster 15:58, 23 January 2006 (PST)

Are auto-backlinks disabled?
Why don't automatic backlinks work? I'm used to them on Wikibooks and I think it would be a nice thing to have back, especially since some contributors are already inserting some themselves. I'm sure they could be made to nicely fit the current visual theme. GarrettTalk 12:20, 23 January 2006 (PST)


 * I've used them before Garrett, but I was thinking of possible problems. What about the .hack// games? Wouldn't it get seriously confused? And there are probably lots of other games with /'s in them. Is there a way to disable them, perhaps like disables the TOC? --Echelon 19:11, 27 January 2006 (PST)
 * Well, what Wikipedia does for things like that is changes to the nearest "legal" name and makes a note of the reason at the top. We're already doing that for shortened things like Zelda: Ocarina of Time anyway. I don't know if it's possible to selectively disable them though... GarrettTalk 19:46, 29 January 2006 (PST)


 * I think auto-backlinks could be enabled with little harm to the presentation/navigation, but I still want to stick with All_Games_Nav if at all possible. I went ahead and enabled. Pages will have to be purged before they begin to show up.


 * Example --Echelon 15:46, 6 February 2006 (PST)

Spoilers?
How far are we going to go to protect people from spoilers? I'm asking because of the confusing vagueness that's been injected into the Resident Evil 4 Chapter 2-1 boss fight - it reads badly, in my opinion, to be that deliberately vague to protect someone from discovering something they've already encountered in-game. As I mentioned on that article's Talk page, I think that when you're reading a walkthrough it's reasonable to expect some of the events to be given away - that's part of the reason you're reading it after all. Otherwise, we might as well totally remove every in-game event from context with a bullet-point list of "go here; rotate this; go here; shoot" and so forth, to prevent anyone from learning anything about the plot before they play it. The reason we've resorted to multi-page guides, apart from the better formatting and loading times it offers, is that people can read only the bit the're interested in, without going too far ahead in the plot. Why should we sanitize the actual walkthrough itself beyond that division? --aniki21 08:07, 24 January 2006 (PST)
 * I'm a bit confused, as I haven't played this game before. Does it reveal information that would be a spoiler? As you can see in the Zelda: Ocarina of Time guide that I'm working on, there are quite a few "spoilers"--see this for an example. I believe if someone reads through the guide with as they would a strategy guide that they buy in stores, that they won't have a problem with spoilers. Sure, our guides will reveal things, but only after they have occurred in the game. Sometimes it is not required for us to do so, but often it is necessary. That's my opinion, anyway. We can always judge on a per-game basis. Should we make policy concerning this? --Echelon 19:24, 27 January 2006 (PST)


 * I love the format that theforce.net took with spoilers for the Star Wars movies. You would need to highlight sections of the text to have it appear. Just looking at the page which had a white background would have the "bad stuff" contained in white characters. Highlighting it would make the text appear. A great effective way of hiding information but having it still be accessible without needing to go to a different page. --Mpython 5:36, April 21, 2006


 * While that works, I don't know that it is ideal, it needs to be really obvious to the reader that something is hidden. Also, those replaying the game don't likely care about spoilers so it's maybe not the best idea to force spoiler selection every single time. I like the idea behind Wikipedia's Dynamic navigation box template], with that it's obvious that something is hidden. GarrettTalk 15:23, 21 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Would it be beyond a possibility to create a new sort of tag, like one you could put around sections of a guide with spoilers? It could be as simple as "" really, and basically what I think it would do is hide sections of guides with maybe a grayish box, which reads "spoilers contained inside" in the center. You can click the box to make it go away. The default setting for this feature would be on, of course, so random websurfers don't get anything spoiled, and users would have the option of turning it off if they don't care about spoilers. I can't code though, and don't know how I would go about this - meaning someone else would have to do it. Thoughts? Cosmo 12:15, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
 * That would be cool! Then again, it would be possible to do that now using a modification of the show-hide template. Basically you'd have a word (spoilers) that you'd click to reveal the line beside it. I might look into putting something together sometime. GarrettTalk 14:20, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Weekly/Monthly SQL dumps
I'd like to do SQL dumps of StrategyWiki every so often so that we ensure that the content of this wiki lives on regardless of anything that happens. With anyone able to freely download the wiki's database, I feel that we would be fully living up to the GFDL. Do you guys agree with this?

Secondly, if we do plan to offer downloads of the database we'll have to figure out the logistics of how to do so. For security reasons, we'll need to make sure tables such as the ones for users and sessions are not included--we don't want password hashes falling into the wrong hands. In addition, offering the downloads may prove to be a large bandwidth problem if many people decide to download it--this may be a false dilemma, but I'd prefer to plan for that scenario now rather than later. What if we only offered the database downloads to the top contributors of this site to oversee and do it in a rotating manner?

In addition to the database, we'll have to do the same for images.

What are your thoughts to all of this? Is it even necessary? --Echelon 21:06, 20 January 2006 (PST)


 * I'd love to see this.
 * Brainscatter 15:30, 9 February 2006 (PST)
 * Sounds like a good idea, and that top contributors part is definitely good. <("<) Alex (>")>
 * I would also love to see this, I would download the database when i could. Woofcat


 * I'm going to start providing these now that StrategyWiki has gotten some press. If you have any suggestions on how I should do that, leave me a note. --echelon talk 17:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)
 * Why not offer it in a bit-torrent to save on bandwith costs? --Naz Drala talk 06:14, 26 April 2006 (EST)
 * That's definitely the most cost-effective method. However whoever's got the original will need to have theirs sharing nearly 24/7 to ensure it's always available. GarrettTalk 16:47, 26 April 2006 (PDT)


 * I'll make one available tomorrow. I need to make sure I understand correctly--in Wikipedia's dumps, they do not include the user table (since it contains user account information such as email and passhash). I assume that I won't include it either. Garrett, I'll let you know when I have it. I don't do a lot of torrenting myself, so maybe we can discuss the logistics of this and figure out who does what.  --echelon talk 01:22, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

Art/Screenshot of the Week
Feel free to suggest. Upload all of your candidates and post them on the talk page for Main_Page. --Echelon 02:47, 8 January 2006 (PST)

Is there an easy way of taking screenshots of games on a gamecube? If so, how?


 * Well, either a TV capture card or a GameCube emulator. The one costs money and the other's buggy, so take your pick. GarrettTalk 14:30, 22 April 2006 (PDT)