User talk:RAP

{| align=center width=940px

Welcome to StrategyWiki!
Hello RAP! Welcome to StrategyWiki. Thank you for your contributions. If you have any questions, just contact a sysop through their talk page or post on the staff lounge, and they'd be happy to help. If you need help editing, check the StrategyWiki Guide or ask a sysop, we're usually around. On the other hand, if you have ideas for StrategyWiki, bring them up on the forums. To keep up-to-date with the goings on of the wiki, consider adding the noticeboard to your watchlist.

Please remember to sign your name when leaving comments on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (    ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Feel free to delete this message from your talk page if you like, or keep it for reference. Happy editing! — 14:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Is it me or did you just cut and paste a welcome message? Checking your wiki contributions, you just did. Huh. By the way, I respond people's comments here, not in their talk pages for the sake of efficient organization. --RAP (talk) 20:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's our Welcome template. We put it on any contributing member's talk page, regardless of apparent wiki expertise.  Few registered users are as adept at editing as you are.   Pro  cyon  04:24, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah, that explains that. Didn't know there was a template too. Alrighty then. If you have time, can you take a look at StrategyWiki_talk:Achievements_project? Thanks. --RAP (talk) 04:32, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

No 'You'
I don't think we have the same 'You' policy here. I don't remember the exact discussion, but I think the discussion was towards, "let people personalize it". As long as it reads fairly well, there's no point restricting the authors too much. -- Prod (talk) 17:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah... I forgot to mention in the list on adding depersonalization (or having an informative tone); I was more on restricting myself from doing those and be creative about it. Those are more like my opinions that I wanted guides to be like than something that should be enforced on StrategyWiki. Will clarify that in the page. --RAP (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

PNG
I use PNGGauntlet to compressing PNG-files. Do you know of it? I will check out PNGMonster. Paco (talk) 06:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I tried using that one, but I didn't know how to run it. It was complicated if I remember correctly (or was it something else?). That's why I still use PNG Monster. It uses all the PNG compression techniques all in one program. The only bad thing is the lack of differences between each file individually, it's the whole package. I'm sure there's a comparison chart somewhere for comparing programs on how effective the compression is, just like the many file compression techniques from various programs like 7-Zip. --RAP (talk) 07:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * really? PNGGauntlet is quite easy to use for me. Drag&Drop some images into it and choose a category (from light to heavy compressing) and then start running it. Paco (talk) 07:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Bullet
There is another method that i know of: listcol Check Ultima 7 TOC to see how it works. Paco (talk) 06:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I implemented it to the Acno ' s Energizer ' s Level Codes section page. There's one problem however: there's a small amount of empty space before the first entry. It's noticeable upon highlighting the text. It looks crooked. It doesn't apply only to the page I just edited, it applies to everything else that has this template, like the one you linked me. --RAP (talk) 07:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

DPL
Hi RAP. Please feel free to experiment with DPL as you wish, but do understand that they come at a heavy hit to the CPU of our servers, so don't go crazy with them. We optimized the site run certain DPLs once every so often and cache the result so that we wouldn't have to worry about people refreshing pages that contain them. Just an FYI.  Pro cyon  03:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Eeeeh, I just want the results because I'm curious on the Top 100 Most Popular games users have looked, both the original and with guide completion 0 and 1 categories removed.
 * I couldn't get the Most Wanted stuff because it's set up differently; I wanted data of a Top 100.
 * I can just save the list manually so I don't have to use DPL again.
 * I could potentially use this data to help the wiki start, polish, or finish up walkthroughs.
 * I'm a bit surprised that you guys are using DPL in the main page, I can imagine a bunch of people going to the main page with DPL loading up.
 * I thought it would've been used in a maintenance page where less people would see it.
 * Since you said you made it sure the website is optimized, that explains why I can't get the Most Wanted data; why not apply it to the Most Popular?
 * --RAP (talk) 07:55, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Image categorization
Usually every Image have at last 2 category. One Game Category and one subcategory like Screenshots, Sprites, Maps, etc. Paco (talk) 07:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Nevermind that, i see you got that figured out. Paco (talk) 07:32, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Speaking of stuff having to do with images, do you have any idea what's happening with these images? File:EmeraldMine Keys.png, File:EmeraldMine_Bug.png (especially check this one), and File:EmeraldMine_Spaceship.png. I rearranged them and even though the new image is rendered in the correct resolution of 32 by 32, the visual rendered incorrectly. --RAP (talk) 07:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I see them all in 32x32 instead of 64x16 which you previous uploaded. Especially the Bug last 3 images are all the same. I think it's a cache problem, but don't worry i had it too. Paco (talk) 07:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Last three images? After uploading the same thing, one is the same, one was reworked (the one with a slightly higher filesize, uncompressed), two of them I'm seeing are the correct images. Anyway, I tried purging all three of the images from MediaWiki link. Is it the end wiki server's problem? --RAP (talk) 07:51, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, right. First of three is 361 KB, then 782 KB and the last is again 361 KB. But all three look the same to me. Either that or it's a browser problem. After some time the images should show properly to you. Paco (talk) 07:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I tested two of the other browsers and confirmed that it's not a browser-specific problem. It shows the same four images with two images being the original size in that orientation. It's definitely server specific, yet it's weird that it displayed in that manner to my end instead of yours. --RAP (talk) 08:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Your Sandbox
So, you're planning to revamp the skill pages? Any specific reason to that? Now that I see it, it actually looks better. Have fun doing it, though. And if that question on your 4th sandbox is meant for answer (stupid question I know), then it's because +# is adding stats to the character (such as weapon attack, accuracy, etc), and # is just a regular variable, such as MP Cost, Damage, etc. --PirateIzzy (talk) 02:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I was doing it completely out of the blue, out of pure curiosity; despite having no knowledge about the game, I feel that it could be improved (and also applied to other games involving changing variables upon leveling). There were odd contradictions regarding the use of Template:MapleStory/Skill desc (such as missing and repeated info, and things like simplified and detailed or official info); even the contents outside the table look funny, which is why I was considering revamping that as well. For the variable table, Feel free to check the details of how the variable table is supposed to display info: User:RAP/Sandbox/4. --RAP (talk) 02:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok. That answers my question. I need to figure out how to cover and phrase of both of those without being a bump in a road. I can't make it read like "plus +1 per level" (plus plus one per level). --RAP (talk) 02:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

It does seem like a good idea, don't get me wrong. It looks much neater. I never understood the purpose of repeating information, and I removed about half of the repeated information in the skill tables since it was just taking up space. And Nexon does make mistakes in level readouts (formulas), however, such as the Thief Skill Dark Sight's readout listing two negative signs earlier on, like this: MP Cost: 23, Duration: 20 sec, Movement Speed: --17. I usually manually remove them. If you'd like me to send you the level readouts for skills, I can gladly send you them. --PirateIzzy (talk) 03:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If for making corrections from the potential errors that might occur in the StrategyWiki pages, sure, that would be great.
 * I checked some of the other Skill pages, and they seem to be tricky or confusing to handle regarding content (such as Rapid Fire [data beyond Level 30] and Double Down [dice roll data] from Jett class).
 * Also, I'm trying to figure out what to do with entries that only have one level, and even those that don't have stats (like Monster Rider from Beginner class).
 * It may take more time to understand and tackle the scenario here. --RAP (talk) 04:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The way (most) 4th jobs skills work with the current template, the bolded part is the max level that you can achieve normally. There's a skill for the Paladin job called "Combat Orders", which works for the Paladin and anyone else in their party (a type of group for training/doing special quests). Combat Orders can raise most 4th job skills past the maximum (up to 2 at maximum level), which is why it is in Italics. As for Double Down, not sure exactly what confuses you. For skills that have one level, but have variables (such as MP cost and Damage), I'd just leave it with the variable, and not bother listing the percent. Something like this, for example, what I shall post in your 4th sandbox.

As for Monster Rider, I'll post my idea too. --PirateIzzy (talk) 04:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Colored tables
In your sandbox, you should get used to just using prettytable instead of coloring columns. Unfortunately, we are against colored tables because of background color changes (our themes change every couple of years), and we just want everything to look the same here. Plus, some people are color blind. This is something I tried to fight years ago when I had to simplify a guide I was working on. -- 15:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * How have I not heard this when I'm already finished with Emerald Mine/Scoring, that uses a lot more colors? The weird thing is that I actually wanted to work on a color-blind version first but there were no wiki extensions to suggest. I think that the only way to workaround this is to upload grey shade types and shapes and implement them on MediaWiki:Monobook.css or with "" . I'm trying to figure out how MarioWiki works in that stance, particular on "The 'Shroom" section. When I working on finishing the page up with some help from, he didn't seem to mind. --RAP (talk) 17:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Mowdow is new and this issue only comes up about once a year. It is mostly a standardization thing. It is easier for us to maintain/edit/cleanup if we don't have to interpret as much customization data, and even though it is bland, if we use it everywhere then that is what people are used to. I, and some others, use the Monobook theme (the default Wikipedia-like one), so if you're basing your table look off of how it looks in Dolphin, you may want to switch it (in your preferences) to see if there is a difference. -- 20:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Just to weigh in here, NMH is correct, but there is also a fair amount of discretion and yielding to experienced contributors. If you were a user who only made a few edits here and there, I'd say stick to the formula, but if you're truly dedicated to maintaining something, you're welcome to experiment with new ideas.  There are some fancier table designs on the site, the like move lists for some of the SNK fighters; see The King of Fighters '99/Athena for example.  Definitely not standard, but it's been accepted as the template for those moves.  Just try to find a happy compromise between novel presentation and maintainability.   Pro  cyon  02:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Chatted with, four years since being admin is still new? Huh.
 * I checked it in Monobook skin, the only difference is that it is somewhat larger; only can tell with a side-by-side comparison. We'll talk about the Monobook skin in another time.
 * I hope you're not mistaking the content of User:RAP/Sandbox/4 with User:RAP/Sandbox/5, which the latter is outdated.
 * Please read the notes in the "Thought Box" section in Sandbox/4, there's a purpose for those colored cells.
 * If tables are supposed to be accessible to the color-blind, please explain Yes and their buddies that utilize color; those are the ones that I'm using in the test table (with exceptions).
 * If say I should not use the colors at all, would varying shades of grey be a replacement?
 * If say I should not use the colors at all, would varying shades of grey be a replacement?

--RAP (talk) 04:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I suggest checking User:RAP/Sandbox/0 for more examples of my experimenting on possible tables and templates incase you missed it. It will also be served as a set of examples for this project idea written in the ideals page.
 * Tables like this are a great step of advancement of displaying info away from text-based walkthroughs. Read up info quickly!
 * I checked the page you linked me and other similar pages for myself, my response is:
 * "Sorry, it looks like a mess." (if this is the final version).
 * With a bit of research and the fact that this was written up in 2009 (not sure if more development occurred since then), the attempt to add the categories for those particular fighting moves is poorly done.
 * The colors are too distracting with the text being white to compensate instead of regular black.
 * What's worse is that a certain category word like "Desperation" ruins the stability of the look by sticking the space out.
 * To nail it off, for readers using the Monobook skin, one notable difference is that the white boxes are filled with color, making it look bad.
 * One positive thing I can say is that space is being efficiently. I like that a lot.
 * Maybe I'll help you guys design a new one, or look into the Project talk page for previous attempts.
 * Maybe I'll help you guys design a new one, or look into the Project talk page for previous attempts.


 * Wow, has it been that long? Sorry Moydow. I've just never worked with you on much. Anyways, yeah there are exceptions, but I'm not sure if this should be one? Although maybe it SHOULD just because its MapleStory and you know how our traffic loves those pages. Maybe they should be extra special. -- 05:39, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the setup of the table is actually generic enough to not be made as a specialized template and be applied to games that involve RPG elements, stats, and upgrading. I don't know if there's another example since I don't play RPGs very much. The reason I wanted to keep the table as small as possible is usually because the data lists are long. Revamping the stuff by removing the unnecessary stuff without sacrificing the details (which is tricky) would increase the accessibility and consumption speed to the end user. For revamping the Skills section in general, the way it was set up is awkward with having MapleStory/Skill desc as the basis. I tried plugging in the table into it to replace the bullet-point Level info, but it refused to do so. It seems that it's because the Level info is pulled out from the game without cleaning up (saying that I never played the game at all). --RAP (talk) 06:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * This is what a skill tooltip in MapleStory looks like: . Skill name, skill icon, then to the right is the description. Below the line is the level and the current level's bonus. The game does not let you look at previous bonuses (like our tables do). If a skill can be leveled up, the tooltip will tell you what the next bonus will be. -- 01:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * We support equal opportunity of guides :P, MapleStory is just another guide these days. -- Prod (talk) 03:02, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

If you need help with anything, I can do my best to help out if neceessary. --PirateIzzy (talk) 03:12, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

--RAP (talk) 05:04, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * @ and
 * Checking the image from NMH, looking at the "Skills Inventory" window:
 * Are the Skills have to be unlocked in a linear fashion? From left to right?
 * What are the symbols (Double Sword, Sword with Red Increase Arrow, and Person with Two Pluses) at the left represent? Are they subcategories of the skills? Are they consistent with each supercategory (from Beginner to Hyper Skills)?
 * Are the boxes that have a Mushroom image represent in comparison to Skill images? Empty? Unlockable skill?
 * What are the buttons at the bottom-left side? Do they open up to more skills the player can use?
 * The reason why I ask those questions is that it is critical on how I rework the Skill pages to add potential missing info for the guide. Not only that, but to rework on the custom TOC (which is large, and has pockets to space that has yet to be compressed).

--PirateIzzy (talk) 05:21, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No, they're usually all given to you at once.
 * The Double Sword represents Attacking skills, the Sword with the Up Arrow represents Passive skills (skills that give you a permanent boost), and the Person with Two Pluses represents Active buffs, which are usually temporary buffs (though some can be toggled on and off, and last forever until turned off). The old UI for the skill window was a lot different, but yes, it's consistent.
 * It means empty.
 * The buttons on the bottom left are the following: Guild Skills, which are only available to people in Guilds, and the skills can be activated for a small fee, varying on the level and type of skill (skills include EXP increase, Weapon/Magic Attack, Critical Rate, etc). The next button, Mounts, represents, well, mounts that you can ride on that you have obtained over time. Some are temporary, some are permanent. Next, Macro, allows you to chain up to 3 skills to one button (for example, activating 3 buffs in a row by pressing one button).


 * Huh. That's a thing. "Attacking Skills", "Passive Skills", and "Active Buffs". Got it. Looks like I have to find a way to incorporate those categories. However, I don't think any of the Skill pages do not have that categorized with one of the three at all. Curious, what did the old UI look like? For those three buttons, "Guild Skills" are separate from being attached to the character correct? Does it also apply with the "Mount" button? I'm not sure about the latter because I've seen a Skill page that have a section on Mounts, and some of them are single skills in some sections. --RAP (talk) 05:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Don`t worry about categorizing, it's fine as is. The rest I'll answer tomorrow, going to sleep now.--PirateIzzy (talk) 06:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok so the game breaks down skills by job (class tier). So when you start you are a "Beginner" class in most cases, or pre-first job (these have very few skills, if any). Then you level and get to First job (a.k.a. the second tier) and so forth. There are typically 4 jobs (5 tiers) per class/character (in the image, note the tabs across the top of the window with Roman numerals - these indicate the tier). No need to categorize based on ability type, because all skills are available when you reach that job (although some have pre-requisite conditions like having a certain amount of points in another skill). Also, you cannot spend any points on a recently unlocked job until all existing skill points have been spent (basically they allocate a certain amount for each job; that way you can't save all your points to max out the best skills easily - they do this to force an end-game economy that revolves around gathering tradeable consumable items that add skill points). Also, the skill window appears to have changed. The image I linked is from a newer version of the game than I have played (I stopped playing in the spring; notice the character's level is above 200 - that was the cap earlier this year). -- 15:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv7dlLukg48 ← Here is an old video of Korean MapleStory's Test Server with a revamp patch for the Pirate Job (specifically Corsair/Captain in this video), with the old skill UI (don't worry about the skill icons, they were just filler icons until the real icons were designed). Hypers skills were in their own UI, with 3 columns, S (passive stat boosts, such as Hyper Strength), P (passive skill boosts, such as Rapid Fire - Reinforce), and A (active skills, such as Power Unity). Guild Skills can be viewed by any member of a guild, and once activated, the entire guild, and the person who activated it, receives the buff for a short period of time. Mount skills are attached to the character, once you receive a consumable (for most mounts), or receive the mount and its saddle as Equipments (for the Monster Rider skill). Normally, each job has their own mount, though some jobs have none. In a rare case, the Party Quest Boss Rex (for the Resurrection of the Hoblin King PQ) drops his Hyena as a mount at a VERY low rate, as well as the saddle for it at a much more common rate (it can also be obtained with 100 Hobb Warrior Marks, dropped by Rex each PQ). --PirateIzzy (talk) 20:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

--RAP (talk) 22:28, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't mean replacing the job tiers (Beginner to Hyper Skills) with the three types of Skills, but incorporating it to the page and the table. It will inform the user better on how many skills are in a particular category among the three. Does this class within the job tier have more "Attack Skills" than the other classes? If say I wanted to make go into "Pirate" class, and wanted primarily "Attack Skills" all the way as I progress through my jobs, I would articulate my thoughts upon checking the table if it is made. (Again, keeping in mind that I've never played the game at all).
 * Huh. The Mount skills stuff is going to be tricky if they are going to be in both a separate section for themselves and within the Job tiers.
 * I'm curious if there's a page on "Guild Skills" in StrategyWiki since it applies only in Guilds. I can't seem to find it.
 * Huh. The Mount skills stuff is going to be tricky if they are going to be in both a separate section for themselves and within the Job tiers.
 * I'm curious if there's a page on "Guild Skills" in StrategyWiki since it applies only in Guilds. I can't seem to find it.

I don't think we're going to bother adding more mounts to the Wiki, but I don't know. And nope, there's no guild skill page. Have any other questions? --PirateIzzy (talk) 22:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I just need to hear from . What I need is the info of categorization of skills in each job tier for all classes; perhaps start at the Pirate class as the basis (the one I'm working on in the Sandbox). I'll be continuing on table implementation in the Sandbox later tonight and rework on the bloated custom TOC. --RAP (talk) 22:58, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I noticed the table of content thing with the images, and I approve. A basic rule of thumb, the skills that ONLY give permanent boosts, and nothing temporary and no attacks, are passive skills. Attacks and actives may be obvious for the most part. The 3 skills you listed under active are actually passive (Master of Swimming, " " Organization, and Pirate Blessing), as an example. Attacks should be fairly obvious, though some of them give passive effects. However, the skill itself is still an active. Some active buffs also give passive effects, and the same rule applies. I'll give you these:


 * Pirate:
 * Active: Dash
 * Attack: Double Shot, Sommersault Kick
 * Passive: Bullet Time, Shadow Heart


 * Pirate (Cannoneer):
 * Active: none
 * Attack: Cannon Blaster, Cannon Strike, Blast Back
 * Passive: Cannon Boost

The order which they are listed is up to you. Of course, I'll be happy to help out whenever you need. --PirateIzzy (talk) 05:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

--RAP (talk) 08:39, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you check the Sandbox/4 page if you have time?
 * I'm working on adding a 2nd custom TOC, one focused more on just the sections themselves, not the skills (I'm putting both that and skills-focused custom TOC).
 * I'm trying to work on communicating the user by utilizing Down Arrow symbols.
 * This is because when I first looked at the Skills pages at first sight, I thought a user can go into multiple jobs within a class, not actually having to pick one of the three jobs in the "Second Job" section, and stick to it as leveling up occurs. I found that out when I looked at the pages more closely.
 * The thing is that I can't seem to decide which one is better: B or AB. Don't worry about A, like Sandbox/0, there's a lot of thought into doing those revisions, tons of possibilities to work out as you try executing them.


 * I like A better. I read the table in a chronological order from top to bottom. I start as Beginner, then I get some choices if I want to be a pirate. No one ever sticks with a Beginner past pre-first job because it sucks and it can't be upgraded. They released a special unlockable, upgraded Beginner character/class called Ultimate Adventurer or Ultimate Explorer (for some reason we don't have a section for it - I've never unlocked it).
 * Anyways, the point is everyone upgrades their beginner so the left column with down arrow and "Common" is not necessary. If you're using "Common" as a way to group skills that all three pirate types have at a certain job level, then you should make that into a template to insert into each section. Don't put it somewhere outside of the class's skill section or people will begin to add it there themselves since it appears missing. They don't care whether it is common or not. They want it to be grouped with the rest. When someone gets to the next job class, they don't have separate pages to look at for common skills or exclusive skills. They are mixed together. That's how they want it to be presented - as it is in game.
 * The best way to do it is to have the navigation table simply link to the class sections and then under the class section have a mini-navigation table (or a bulleted list of skills as presented in game) that links to each skill. Since we can use image maps, the prettiest way to do the mini-navigation table would be to make the table out of screenshots of the skill window and then you could click on the skill icon/name in our table to link to it.
 * For the time being we can just use the skill icon and the name. Re-doing the skill template is a good idea, too. There should not be numbered parameters as there are too many. The template should be formatted to help people fill out a standard prettytable. The reason we use templates in cases like this is simply to save space. It doesn't have to look unique. -- 16:34, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Bulletpoint 1
 * Interesting, picking "A" seems to be a thing that's more understand than B and BA.
 * I was working on a table with limited use of arrows (which seems to stick out odd in a table), which is why I suggested B and BA as choices. Seeing your table, I worked on 2 iterations derived from your work, RAP A1 and RAP A2, one using limited Down Arrows, and one not having them at all. It didn't look good as I thought.
 * Bulletpoint 2
 * I couldn't find a way to communicate that particular part regarding "Common" on all the four jobs, so I hamfisted it until I can think up a better way to implement it, which you might've did successfully back in bulletpoint 1.
 * Your explanation seems to be very endearing to me for a great understanding, seeing that I didn't have an screenshot that shows Common skills in later job levels.
 * Will try to answer the other two bulletpoints later.
 * Will try to answer the other two bulletpoints later.

--RAP (talk) 04:32, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * A minor thing, but if you have time, can you replace File:MS_Skill_Cannon_Strike.png with a new version? A part of it is cut off, it's not 32x32.
 * Also, can you fetch me the whole Skill categorization data on Pirate class for User:RAP/Sandbox/4/A?
 * Also, can you fetch me the whole Skill categorization data on Pirate class for User:RAP/Sandbox/4/A?

--PirateIzzy (talk) 04:57, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, but I'm just going to let you know, every now and then (usually a few months), Nexon Korea revamps jobs, sometimes with buffs, sometimes with nerfs, and sometimes just new icons. I'm preparing for a big one coming soon by changing icons for various skills, but there will usually be more than just new icons (I know NMH doesn't approve of me doing it but that patch is coming sooner than we think). Basically, there will be revamping every now and then.
 * Anyway, I already gave you the ones for the first job pirate skills. If you'd like the rest of the job advancements, let me know. Also, I like 2 more than 3, because it looks so much neater to me.
 * @, you'd be surprised. A lot of people play beginners all the way for fun and as a challenge.

--RAP (talk) 09:30, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I was going to ask about it. MMOs updating/revamping is a thing, and a tedious one that requires input from someone who's into the game. In an unrelated note, I'm working on some kind of scale on game content when one attempts to cover a guide in the wiki.
 * Perhaps I'll ask again when I'm done converting the other tables with prettytable so that other users can update it easier, hearing that MMOs will have to update their stuff with new and revamped content.
 * Continuing with bulletpoint 3
 * Yep. Replicate the interface of the "Skills Inventory" window from the game. I'm still a bit wary of overbloat by having the text of Skills categories at the left, and wondered whether adding those symbol images is justified for replication.
 * Bulletpoint 4
 * I'm doing on the tables, converting it to prettytable – with certain odd exceptions.
 * I was thinking of trashing MapleStory/Skill_desc when I first worked on setting up the work due to be being clunky, but realized it will have to be specialized, much to my sigh on making the process simplified without using specialized templates.
 * @ and
 * I need both of your inputs on which display style looks better, ignoring the prettytable-ifed tables: version 1 (original), version 2A, or version 2B.
 * I was thinking of trashing MapleStory/Skill_desc when I first worked on setting up the work due to be being clunky, but realized it will have to be specialized, much to my sigh on making the process simplified without using specialized templates.
 * @ and
 * I need both of your inputs on which display style looks better, ignoring the prettytable-ifed tables: version 1 (original), version 2A, or version 2B.


 * 4/C. No need to require people to click each section for data. -- 16:01, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

My only qualm with 4C is that there are two tables of data, one normal and one collapsable, which is really unnecessary. It's basically like writing the description twice in the old prettytable template, just taking up space (which I am still in the middle of fixing). --PirateIzzy (talk) 18:31, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I meant 4/C without collapsible lists. Duplication and hiding the tables is not good or efficient. -- 19:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

--RAP (talk) 21:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
 * @ and
 * I specifically said to ignore those tables for the time being and focus on deciding which page style looks better. I left two versions incase the converting to prettytable goes wrong (like missing info).
 * Wait...you don't want the collapsing tables? I was following based on what MapleStory/Skill desc does when attempting to do the revamp. I was wondering why, and figured that the content in the collapsible tables can be long to scroll if there are no collapsible tables.
 * Wait...you don't want the collapsing tables? I was following based on what MapleStory/Skill desc does when attempting to do the revamp. I was wondering why, and figured that the content in the collapsible tables can be long to scroll if there are no collapsible tables.


 * I thought you planned on putting a useful, efficient table of contents at the top. The collapsible lists are not necessary. I vote against it for any new/revised template. -- 21:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

--RAP (talk) 22:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That's quite a curveball you got there. Yeah, I have a great knack of creating custom TOCs.
 * There are two custom TOCs that will be utilized in User:RAP/Sandbox/4/A: one focused on the sections, and one for the skills. I want to combine both of them together (despite both types having jumplinks to the respective sections), which includes the guide arrows, but I'm not sure if it is worth the effort to make the tables more complicated and require more maintenance due to the nature of MMOs.
 * The reason why I wanted to keep the collapsible tables is because of the section-focused TOC (or section jumplinks in general); utilizing the TOC, it is so that the user can linkjump to a particular section of the Skills page, and see more of the Skills in one screen than having the tables opened and spreading the Skills downward.
 * The reason why I wanted to keep the collapsible tables is because of the section-focused TOC (or section jumplinks in general); utilizing the TOC, it is so that the user can linkjump to a particular section of the Skills page, and see more of the Skills in one screen than having the tables opened and spreading the Skills downward.


 * Why don't we start making headway on this rather than discussing the method? Please begin editing one of the existing skill pages (e.g. MapleStory/Warrior/Skills) with the proposed, permanent style. My suggestions: ToC at the top, keep it simple, no arrows. If you are combining the skill pages with all tiers, each Tier's table of contents cell could contain a simple row of skill icons that link to their section. No words or wasted space. -- 22:51, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, don't edit the Warrior Skill Page yet (if you were planning to), at least not until the RED patch comes to GMS (I know it's a few months away, but it'll save the effort). I recommend Thunder Breaker, Dawn Warrior, or Wind Archer for revamping. --PirateIzzy (talk) 23:13, 6 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Too late. I initiated the changes on the Warrior page. You're going to have to get used to making updates on the new style anyways. I don't see why that matters. -- 23:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Huh, giving me some explicit permission to directly edit one of the actual Skills pages. Wait, what about doing the Pirate skills? I've done a fair amount of work on them in the test pages. If I have to work on the Warrior page, I need details of the Skills and where they are categorized in each job tier. This also means we're moving the discussion into their talk page. --RAP (talk) 23:33, 6 October 2013 (UTC)


 * No need to move the discussion at this point. Normally it would have been made on Talk:MapleStory as it concerns the guide as a whole. I chose Warrior because it was the first one I could think of. We can leave it as is for now if you really need to use the pirate page for the first draft. I don't think it matters. Take a look and let's see what needs to be done. I made the ToC more efficient and it links to each common section. -- 23:38, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

@ I was hoping to save you the effort, but fine. I'll post the categories for both pre-RED and post-RED. I'll post the names of translated names, so they are subject to change. Just look at pre-RED for now. --PirateIzzy (talk) 23:42, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

To both of you, be sure to read the notes when I make edits to the Warrior skills page. Sad to say that I have somewhat limited time right now because I have other things to do later tonight. --RAP (talk) 00:17, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I see the notes. In the end we will only allow for a single unified table, no header or following horizontal rule (please do not use on guide pages. Level 2 headers have one included so it isn't necessary. The way it is now is fine for grouping the two tables. I used the details link so we do not need to worry about including beginner skills on any of these tables. I think the skill groupings idea is a bad one, but let's see how it turns out. I recommend getting rid of the individual cells and just making them fit along a wide row using colspan, but it is best to wait since the number of cells in each row will depend on how the number of skills in each skill categories turn out. -- 00:56, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

@ How do you suggest we separate skills shared by only 2 jobs? Should we make a separate section, like you did for Common Hypers? --PirateIzzy (talk) 01:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think we should be separating the skills at all, and this problem seals the issue. I can't think of a way to do it in the table of contents (ToC) without making it overly complex. If you want to have a skill icon index, it is best if we do not categorize by type.
 * In either case, to denote what skills are used by each job, all we need is some bullet points in each skill's section denoting requirements/restrictions and what class(es) get it. Can you give an example of a common skill or two, and what classes have them, so I can specify them on the page as an example? -- 04:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * @ and
 * Came back and had some spare time to help you guys on MapleStory/Warrior/Skills. Did some polish on the skills-ridden custom-TOC that makes it look especially neat and stable to look at.
 * Sorry to interrupt your conversation, but nice job on the custom skills-TOC, plotting the data down. That surely took some time.
 * I didn't know that MapleStory/Skill desc features a "hidden section" coding, when I clicked any of the four Skills in the Swordsman row.
 * Looking at the coding, the jumplink code has "Swordman" before the skill names, like: "Swordman_Power_Strike", "Swordman_Slash_Blast", "Swordman_HP_Increase", and "Swordman_Iron_Body"; I was thinking, "Why not get rid of those Job Rank markers?", that seems like unnecessary code.
 * I was wondering if there is a possibility that there are two or more Skills that share the same name in the same guide which may justify this. I suppose that even if there's the remote possibility that this will happen, I'd say, "Keep it".
 * --RAP (talk) 06:42, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I filled in the Swordman row with correct links so you can see how it works. Please do not fix the other links because our goal here is to replace skill desc with something better. Please begin working on MapleStory/skill (I created a basic version so something is there for you to start with). I am setting this up with named parameters, as the numbered parameters get very confusing with these big templates which all MapleStory templates end up with. -- 18:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I filled in the Swordman row with correct links so you can see how it works. Please do not fix the other links because our goal here is to replace skill desc with something better. Please begin working on MapleStory/skill (I created a basic version so something is there for you to start with). I am setting this up with named parameters, as the numbered parameters get very confusing with these big templates which all MapleStory templates end up with. -- 18:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The thing about the new skill template, I liked what RAP was doing because when I tag a skill, e.g. Power Strike, it would actually go to that, whereas with the old and new MapleStory/skill templates, I can't do that. And what about common skills with multiple icons, such as Weapon Mastery? I'd rather not list each one separately like we did before.
 * The thing about the new skill template, I liked what RAP was doing because when I tag a skill, e.g. Power Strike, it would actually go to that, whereas with the old and new MapleStory/skill templates, I can't do that. And what about common skills with multiple icons, such as Weapon Mastery? I'd rather not list each one separately like we did before.

--PirateIzzy (talk) 22:43, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * This is by NO means finished. If you want that functionality, just request it or copy it from another template. Here, I've added it. -- 01:31, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, now to figure out how it works. I'm not sure where the id tag would go, especially if one common skill has 3 different icons. --PirateIzzy (talk) 01:44, 8 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah. I thought it was because he set down the Skills category data.
 * Immediately, my first thought on seeing the test template all three of us will work on is: "Will my prettytable-ified table work in the 'data'?"
 * Didn't work. Like MapleStory/Skill desc, plugging the table won't render it properly, leaving only a "{" shown. If there's a consideration of incorporating my template with that, that's too complicated to wrap my mind around.
 * I wanted to suggest creating three parts of a template that make up the whole table as a workaround, three of them consist of: 1) item surface info, 2) table setup, and 3) data info, but skills like Blast Back (Pirate) would serve to complicate things. I'm not sure what to say at the moment when finding another solution; I'm preoccupied with schoolwork this week.
 * @ and
 * Offtopic...this is really getting a lot longer than I thought. Have both of you had a conversation or collaboration this long? I'm thinking of making an entirely new section in this talk page so all three of us don't have to scroll at the bottom to edit. It's getting irritating. It's less about the "colored tables" and more like having a three-person group collab to update the Skills pages of MapleStory.
 * Offtopic...this is really getting a lot longer than I thought. Have both of you had a conversation or collaboration this long? I'm thinking of making an entirely new section in this talk page so all three of us don't have to scroll at the bottom to edit. It's getting irritating. It's less about the "colored tables" and more like having a three-person group collab to update the Skills pages of MapleStory.


 * Yes, this is reaching typical collaboration talk. Normally they end up split up into tinier sections, since most issues are resolved in a few back and forths. I'll begin the new section. -- 04:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

MS Test template and ToC overhaul
Here is the new section for easy access.
 * @: I understand that the use of templates and the jumble of wikimarkup/HTML can be daunting. Feel free to fill in your finalized table-style of content in one of the skill sections. What I mean is, go to MapleStory/Warrior/Skills. Pick a skill (the first one is fine with me). Leave the current template the way it is and put your table above or below it, in the same section. If you think your table is complete, feel free to remove the existing template from that section. Then we can compare old to new, and I can come up with a way to template it. The hardest thing to put into templates are variable column tables. It is best if we can have columns that are standard to all skills. E.g. the headers set as "Level" and "Bonus" or something generic like that if you are going with a two table layout (I think that's what you want, right? That should be all that you need). Then I can make the number of rows variable, since some skills have like 3 levels and some have 20. What I mean by "variable" is you only have to fill in a certain amount of rows and no more will appear than that. The magic of templates!
 * @: I'm not sure what you mean. We will need to clarify things to help you learn how to edit templates. Since this is simple so far, it is best that you are able to grasp how it is currently. Feel free to copy code into this discussion (or start one on the template's talk page) using nowiki tags (like I used here, edit this section to see) and ask about how/why things work. The way I have it set up is that the id (a.k.a. the span tag's identifier), which is really just the text that you link (e.g. id ), will be set as the name of the skill by default. So Power Slash will just be and to link to it you use Power Slash/or whatever text you want . The "id" parameter is something I created in case two skills have the same name (not same icon! Every skill could have the same icon - the file parameter lets you do whatever you want with the image). The id parameter will override the name parameter if specified. If the id parameter is not used, the name one will be used by default. NOTE: I made a mistake when I first implemented it, so I fixed it. Take a look. MapleStory/skill. -- 04:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The thing about the icons, I know what you mean that each skill should have the same icon, but Warriors (and Archers) gain skills post-RED that have a different icon for each job, meaning that there WILL be multiples, whether we want them or not. I also would rather not list them separately like I did before, so maybe if there's a way to add multiple icons (I doubt there'd be a use for more than 3 icons), that could work. I do like the new template now, and I especially like that it actually goes to the skill now when there's a link to it (e.g. Weapon Mastery, because it didn't do that before. Oh, and is there any way to hide the word "tooltip" from the tables? --PirateIzzy (talk) 00:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * My preference is to have the tooltip text there so people know what is displayed after is exactly what is shown in game. I am going to make it invisible for you, but only if no additional analysis of the skill occurs. If that sort of information is added, I will add a "description" or "explanation" parameter for comments/hidden details/clarifications of the skill.
 * If another skill uses the same icon, just use the file parameter. No duplicates here on SW. -- 01:44, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I didn't mean multiple skills with the same icon (I don't like duplicates either), I meant multiple icons for a common skill, such as Rush post-RED, since Heroes, Paladins, and Dark Knights all get Rush, with the exact same function, MP cost, damage, and mobs hit, but each job has its own icon and effect for it (Heroes have a red one, Paladins yellow, and Dark Knights have dark-purple). The same goes for Warrior Leap (Warrior's Flash Jump post-RED), and Double Jump (Archer's Flash Jump post-RED). --PirateIzzy (talk) 01:50, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * We can add a file2 parameter where you can add additional images next to the first. -- 02:51, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, it could go up to 3, but that works. --PirateIzzy (talk) 02:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * It can be open ended. file2 could let you add [[File:1.png]][[File:2.png]][[File:3.png]] . That way we don't have to add more parameters if additional exceptions occur. I'll add it now. -- 02:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I put up my attempted work, and split the three into sections for easier editing. I used revision version 1 (or "4/B") but uses prettytable due to hearing the possibility of multiple skill images within the same skill entry.
 * A two part template might have to do: MapleStory/skill for the perimeter and surface info, and a table dedicated to level info. For the latter, I don't think a template will be a possibility due to uncertain complications. I'm not sure if there is viable coding technology to replicate that using fewer code in the final version, as far as I know.
 * Huh, there are more than two skill icons within the same entry? My, I'm rather trickled out on the maintenance of MMO game guides. The most complicated stuff is usually the variables I bet. Though, I like to think there's something higher than that: MOBAs, due to the metagaming aspect, adding more items, and champions. I would probably put it higher than fighters.
 * --RAP (talk) 07:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Huh, there are more than two skill icons within the same entry? My, I'm rather trickled out on the maintenance of MMO game guides. The most complicated stuff is usually the variables I bet. Though, I like to think there's something higher than that: MOBAs, due to the metagaming aspect, adding more items, and champions. I would probably put it higher than fighters.
 * --RAP (talk) 07:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I was unable to make the table portion optional, so I will have to make another template for RAP to use. Its use will be to display the icon, name, link to the section, format the tooltip, and make the collapsible section. The table data will have to be added manually as there are too many variables. Once we have both table/template styles polished (which will be soon), we need to take a community vote on what style to use. I prefer the simple style since it makes it easier to edit and cleanup (when looking at a diff, you can't tell what table you are looking at, just the cells that were modified; with the simplified table the cell headers are repeated in the data). I like the complicated tables for their non-repeated labels and polished-look (color optional). Its a hard one. -- 17:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

For the icons, do you want them uploaded like they appear normally, such as this, or would you rather have them uploaded as if you were hovering over the icon with the mouse, such as this? The thing is, it's easier to find them normal, but I know a lot of skills appear like the latter. --PirateIzzy (talk) 23:27, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Your links are broken because southperry disabled hotlinking. Upload them here temporarily. Without looking, are you trying to point out default size vs. double size? Like when you mouse over an item in the inventory? Use the default size. -- 01:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Nah, I meant how an icon lights up when you hover over it vs. how it normally appears (for example, File:MS_Skill_Rage.png, comparing the first version uploaded by Auto Prod Bot, the normal one, and the hovered-over one that Zienth uploaded). I was wondering which one I should upload, the lighter version or the normal version. --PirateIzzy (talk) 03:33, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Daunting? I would say "Yes", if I didn't utilize Notepad++ and it's ability for me to hold "ALT" to highlight a boxed selection. What a time saver!
 * Vote? Good idea. 3 of us voting deciding the final result isn't enough to resonate with potential users in the wiki who want to have a voice. My attempt on revamping the content table data display involves making it compact and detailed, with comes with it's own drawbacks. Wanna settle this decision on the staff lounge? Listing down pros and cons?
 * Oh, viewing those hotlinked images is easy. With both of them open, do not "Refresh", just re-enter it again.
 * Aaaaah, images that change it's look when being hovered. I'm not sure if it is a wiki thing or a HTML thing.
 * Answering your question, I'm mixed upon checking both of the Skill icon images; at first, I'd pick the un-highlighted ones because: I think users are more concerned with the appearance of the image when it's better to recall it more visually than just the skill name verbally, but wow, they both look equally good. It might be because it doesn't use a strong glow but uses brightness instead.
 * Is there a possibility that the skill icons will stay highlighted at a limited time or indefinitely? If so, I suggest keeping it for the sake of completeness (but it might seem like fancy design); unless the reason is to make the icons more intuitive to the end user, instinctively tell the user: "Hey, you can press this thing!" Think of hovering the "Show preview" button in one's internet browser and seeing the color change, or a hyperlink gaining it's underline.
 * --RAP (talk) 06:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there a possibility that the skill icons will stay highlighted at a limited time or indefinitely? If so, I suggest keeping it for the sake of completeness (but it might seem like fancy design); unless the reason is to make the icons more intuitive to the end user, instinctively tell the user: "Hey, you can press this thing!" Think of hovering the "Show preview" button in one's internet browser and seeing the color change, or a hyperlink gaining it's underline.
 * --RAP (talk) 06:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

--PirateIzzy (talk) 21:23, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I want to find out what NMH's stance is on that topic, but I approve your opinion.
 * In game, the icon highlights whenever you move the mouse over it, and stays that way until you move the mouse away from it. If it's possible to make it light up on the Wikia, then by all means sure.


 * This is not a "wikia" - wikia is an organization that produces mass amounts of wikis. This is an independent wikis. Wikis run MediaWiki.
 * I was not aware of the color change. The brighter ones look better and appears to be our current standard, so stick with that for consistency. We do not need, nor want, both versions of the same images. It is a waste of our time. This is not a database. We only want pertinent content.
 * We don't have a way to pop up alternate images yet, it's a javascript thing. We need to discuss that feature in the staff lounge. It would require code added to our common javascript file, but wowwiki.com has a really good example we should figure out how to implement here (mouse over any purple link here): http://www.wowwiki.com/Ulduar_loot
 * RAP, you should play the game for a bit before you make too many assumptions. Everything will start to make sense. -- 06:16, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * RAP, I made you a template to use for ID linking etc. for your tables: MapleStory/skillRAP. -- 06:44, 12 October 2013 (UTC)