User talk:Karlcsr

Welcome to StrategyWiki!
Hello Karlcsr! Welcome to StrategyWiki. Thank you for your contributions. If you have any questions, just contact a sysop through their talk page or post on the staff lounge, and they'd be happy to help. If you need help editing, check the StrategyWiki Guide. If you have a question about the content on this wiki, you can check out our staff lounge page. If you want to ask questions or hang out in IRC, we're usually around. On the other hand, if you have ideas for StrategyWiki, bring them up on the community portal talk page. Please remember to sign your name on, and only on, talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (    ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field as this helps to document all of your hard work. Feel free to delete this message from your talk page if you like, or keep it for reference. Happy editing! -- Baejung92 00:26, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

Contributions
I've looked at your edits, and they seem to have some problems. First of all, there is no need to put your name on a page; the page's history will record your contributions automatically. Also, please remember to keep a neutral point of view (i.e. no usage of the words "I" or "we") in your writing. Finally, I don't believe using swear words would be very appropriate for the site. Remember to follow these guidelines, and thanks for your contributions! Baejung92 01:38, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Once again, a reminder: please remember to refrain from using the word "I". I've gone ahead and reworded parts of the Chinese Level 7 (not well, admittedly), just as an example. If you don't like it, feel free to rewrite it yourself, just don't go back to using "I". Thanks, and happy editing! Baejung92 13:50, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Backing up what Baejung92 said, please do not write guides in a first person perspective. It's not exactly professional. Also on another note, please capitalize nouns and the names of things. I have gone through along with Baejung and corrected most of your mistakes, but please in the future remember to capitalize. One last thing of concern, rather than putting certain words into all caps, just bold them. It looks much cleaner. Cheers. Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 15:21, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Please could you also refrain from duplicating the page's title as a heading; it's already there in big letters at the top, so why make people read it twice? Additionally, could you please not specify sizes for thumbnailed images, because it prevents people from being able to set the size at which they'd like to view thumbnails (it's an option in everyone's preferences). You can see what I mean with both of these points by looking at this diff where I've cleaned up one of the C&C:G pages. Finally, could you try and use the "Preview" button a bit more effectively please, so that you combine many small edits into one larger, correct edit, rather than constantly editing a page to correct yourself. Reducing the number of small edits you make means the sysops can spend less time patrolling them, and more time contributing! Thanks, and don't hesitate to leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions. -- 16:14, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I take your point about the preference only allowing thumbnails up to 300px (I forgot about that), but it is policy that thumbnails are left to the user's preferred size. There are a few situations – such as when a page has little text (I believe the first C&C:G GLA mission page is like this?) – where I think it would be acceptable to have larger images, though. I'll let you size images how you wish, but please try to be sensible and moderate about it, and leave thumbnails at the default size as appropriate. You can always click on an image to make it bigger. ;-)
 * I too am not trying to make mountains out of molehills — we value your contributions, and hope you will continue contributing as you have done, but you must understand that we do have to try and keep the consistent quality of the wiki up. :-) Thanks. -- 19:52, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

C&C: Generals
You're very welcome! About the talk page thing, new messages are supposed to be added to the bottom of the page, but it's no big deal. The easiest way to do this is to click on the "+" button right next to the Edit button on the top. Also, at the end of a comment type four tildes ( "~" ), which will automatically produce your name and the time/date that you left the comment.

OK, now about the actual guide. From the Table of Contents, click on the Campaign 1: China link. You'll see four template buttons to get you started on a guide. Click on "Guide page" to create the page. Then, cut and paste the Chinese mission information you have on the Walkthrough page right now onto the newly created page, and save it. Do the same for the GLA levels, except you should change the "===" s for the level names to "==" headings. Then, delete the content on the current Walkthrough page, and add some basic introduction (something like this) instead. I hope this helped, and if you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask! Baejung92 17:21, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry, I forgot something. After you've pasted over the material, you must fill in the Footer Nav so people can navigate the guide easily. You do this by scrolling to the bottom of the edit space, where you'll see a line that says: . Right next to "prevpage=", type in the name of the page that you want to come right before the current page (since China is Campaign 1, the prevpage for that can just be left blank), and right next to "nextpage=", type in the name of the page that comes right after. I've done the China one as an example. Baejung92 19:13, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks for the contributions Karl. Remember that when posting messages on talk pages or community portals, please sign your posts as Baejung has suggested above (using ~ ).  That's how we get ours to link to our pages.  Please do this from now on to help make it easier to reply to messages and track who said what.  Peace!  -- 21:14, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Are the levels named? If yes, can you move (at the top of every page) the pages from where they are right now to the proper level name? This may require a bit of discussion, so leave a message on my talk page before starting and I'll help you with it (tell me what some of the level names are if you know them). Also, when naming your images, please put a bit more descriptive name than CCG-GLA1.jpg. I would suggest CnC Generals Destroy dam.jpg or something similar (there can be spaces in the names). Thanks, and nice work with the guide so far :). -- Prod (Talk) 23:11, 28 August 2007 (CDT) I converted the generals challenge page to a table. Thoughts? -- Prod (Talk) 20:50, 18 November 2007 (CST)
 * The bottom row is for battles against the SuperBoss, and your guide does show up there. I added it to the bottom so that it wouldn't get too wide and cause problems for people with lower resolutions.  I do agree about adding the list of guides to the ToC (if that's what you meant by the index page).  I didn't know that there was an actual order to the levels, which wouldn't play well with a table if the order is different for each, so I'm somewhat leaning towards putting it back to the way it was.  Which way do you prefer? -- Prod (Talk) 21:43, 18 November 2007 (CST)
 * I'm assuming you meant GLA Demolitions rather than GLA infantry since you deleted that heading. I'll take care of the changes.  Does this mean you prefer the table to what was there before?  -- Prod (Talk) 22:27, 18 November 2007 (CST)
 * Cool :). For your other suggestion, when you said Index page, did you mean the Table of Contents page? -- Prod (Talk) 22:47, 18 November 2007 (CST)
 * Only took about 5-10 mins to set up, so no problem at all. I'm going to try a slightly different set up tomorrow by sorting them into columns.  Also, when leaving messages, please remember to sign.  It makes it much easier for me to get back to your talk page. I've unfortunately made it such a habit that I've almost signed forum posts and emails repeatedly :P. -- Prod (Talk) 23:48, 18 November 2007 (CST)
 * Updated the page again. -- Prod (Talk) 22:43, 20 November 2007 (CST)
 * By removing the == the section will no longer show up in the ToC for the page, so I would recommend keeping some of the headers (along with the [edit] links). I did reduce the number of headings, so hopefully it looks a bit cleaner.  I made a few other changes as well which you can see in the history. -- Prod (Talk) 09:39, 21 November 2007 (CST)

Test Edits
I'm glad to see you're learning and experimenting. I'm going to revert your edits to my talk page, since it's nothing I need to preserve, but for future reference most wikis and StrategyWiki promote the use of sandboxes for experimentation. There's the official sandbox and then you can also use User:Karlcsr/Sandbox if you like. Go ahead and play around if need be! Keep it up, we sysops are here if you need help. -- 00:41, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * On a user's page, such as User:Notmyhandle (mine :P) or any game page such as Mega Man X, you'll notice the "Discussion" link on the right side of the page within the Toolbox. Check it out, there's some other useful links there.  If you want a specialized signature, such as mine or Skizzerz, there are two choices.  The first is to go to "My preferences" at the top.  In the box on that page that says "User Profile" there's an input box labeled "Nickname."  Enter the code in there that you want to modify your signature with (i.e. any text or wikimarkup).  If you use wikimarkup, check the box that says "Raw Signatures" just below the Nickname box.  I'll help you out, the code you want is simply  .  Mine is a little different to help cut back on code, but the end result is the same (I followed the second method).  The second is a little more complicated, and Skizz has decided to write a guide on how to do it so we don't have to repeat these instructions so much. Hope that helps (I'm going to bed now)! -- 01:05, 28 August 2007 (CDT)

NPOV and drivel
Please try to maintain a NPOV (Neutral Point of View) when writing articles. You can read up on it here, it describes it pretty well (although obviously StrategyWiki is not Wikipedia). Also, please refrain from using drivel, aka comments that really don't add anything content-wise. A good example of something that is not NPOV and contains drivel would be the phrase "I checked another strategy guide from elsewhere and found that..." - the entirety of that can be eliminated (oh, and if you ARE using content from another strategy guide, please make sure it isn't copyrighted ^_^). -- 10:39, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Remember, drivel and artistic style are a bit different from each other, so you can still incorporate a bit of flair in your writing as long as it contributes to the content as well (but keep it NPOV though, 'you' is fine since you're guiding the reader along, but stay away from 'I' and company). Anyway, about deleting pages, just put delete on the pages that you want deleted and I will (or another sysop will) come around and delete them. Of course, if you were just talking about removing some content from it, you can do that yourself just by editing it. And as for the sig guide, look for it in the Guide in the next week or so. -- 11:04, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Not really a rookie question at all. Anyway, Notmyhandle mentioned above that I was writing a guide for custom signatures. That's what I was referring to. -- 12:00, 28 August 2007 (CDT)

Image Sizes
Hey Karl, what resolution are you using? A larger resolution is of course going to demand bigger pictures to look good on a page. I think increasing the maximum thumbnail size is a good idea, but you should understand that if you could make it 500px, most of the sprite images and smaller things would become stretched. I'm not saying that's a reason not to do it, but just the one downside for using a larger resolution (less crisp images basically). I'll bring it up in the community issues. -- 19:54, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I thought you might want to know that I've now changed the settings so that you can choose 400- or 500px-wide thumbnails. :-) -- 18:24, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Guide layout
I've got a few suggestions to give you about how you're laying out the C&C:G guide. First off, it would be better if you could use continuous prose, rather than numbered bullet points, both because it allows more explanation, and for reasons I'll mention in a minute. Could you also please use sentence or title case in headings, rather than uppercase? If you prefer headings to be uppercase, I can help you change your CSS so that headings are displayed in uppercase by default, but are still sentence or title case when you edit them. On this page, you might want to consider using sidebar to house the "special strategy hint" sections; but you can only do this if the page is in continuous prose, or the numbering for the bullet points will be messed up. I hope you understand that I'm only pointing these points out so that your guide can become even better, and we value your contributions. If you've got any questions, just leave me a message. :-) -- 05:36, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Looking at China Mission 5, it's a lot better, and I like your idea about just using numbering for time-critical missions. I made one edit to clean up the bullet points on that page (you shouldn't separate bullet points with a blank line), and I have only a few suggestions to make it better:
 * Try to make the text flow more; at the moment there are lots of small, sentence-long paragraphs which read a bit like bullet points. The aim is to try and get a flowing explanation of how to play the mission.
 * Try to explain why things are done a bit more. You don't need to go into reams of detail, but a little explanation for statements such as "Research Nationalism and Chain Guns." helps people understand the game more and how the walkthrough's tactics are working. Adding explanations would also help with the first point.
 * As I said, it's looking better, and if you work at it, the guide will turn out well. :-) -- 13:00, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

CNC Images
I do believe you are forgetting to include these in Category:Screenshots, you can include that in your upload summary and it will do it automatically. --

All you need to do is type into the summary box on the upload screen. -- 00:19, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

It places them into a category on the wiki, in this case, a category of screenshots. Images need to be categorized so that they are properly organized, simply put. Please leave future replies on my talk page and not my user page. The talk page is the one designed for messages from other users. -- 20:11, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Per your most recent uploads, you seem to have accidentally used a space in your category inclusion instead of a colon. I've fixed these for you already. -- 21:20, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Please remember to include the name of the game in the filenames when uploading images for the C&C. The images for the walkthrough page will need to be re-uploaded under the proper names, and the old images labeled with delete.  If you need any help with this let me know. -- Prod (Talk) 13:31, 27 November 2007 (CST)

CNC Names
Aren't there any official names? Like missions... don't they have some sort of tagline you can go by instead of #5 and such? -- 20:39, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

At the top of every page there is a button called Move, it can be found to the right of the History button. Once on the page, change the new subpage name to the mission name as it was suggested to you. After the move, make sure to check the What links here and change anything linking it to the new name. If appropriate, tag the old page (now a redirect to the new one) for deletion by placing a delete tag on it, this will alert the admins that you want the old page deleted, but NOT before changing everything that links to it. -- 20:27, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * There's no need to worry about the delete tag. Just move it to the proper location, fix any of the links to the page (change the Table of Contents first, rest are usually in Footer Navs), and leave the rest to us :).  If anything goes wrong, we'll help you fix it.  I'd also recommend you join us on irc where we can give you real time help.  You can join from http://irc.abxy.org, just type /j #strategywiki after you are connected. I would also recommend you ask for help on the Staff lounge.  It's easier for us to keep track of what other people have already said, and it may help other people with similar problems. Nice work with the guide so far :) -- Prod (Talk) 22:24, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Now that the "proper" names are on the levels, I'm trying to consider this from a users point of view. I would hope that they go through the Table of Contents, which currently tells the campaign + level number, or through the Footer Nav, where they can see the level name to easily get back to it.  Is there another place that renaming the pages would help? -- Prod (Talk) 20:25, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Don't worry too much about the number of images, consider their usefulness. If the image adds nothing to the guide, remove it; if something is unclear without a picture, add one. There's no set number, just put what you feel is needed. -- Prod (Talk) 20:33, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * As Prod says, it's not the number of images, although ~6 is about right for pages of that length. The guide's looking good! -- 00:49, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

When naming the missions, you want them to be as specific to the game as possible. If they actually say Mission 1:  then of course, use that format. If all they give is a name then title the page accordingly. The ToC can be formatted to use numbers instead of bullets, so knowing what number won't be difficult. -- 11:15, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

C&C:G completion
Hi, I wouldn't say the guide is quite ready to be taken to stage 4, as I've found a few pages where there are still "work in progress" signs, and if I look at the ToC, there are three pages missing. Once you've added those pages and gone through the guide removing all the signs (and doing work on the relevant pages if necessary), I think the guide would warrant a stage 4 completion level. :-) -- 01:29, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Layout adjustment
The - is used to make sure things don't overlap incorrectly. Our most common usage is to "push" the ToCs down on the main game pages, so that they don't overlap with the infoboxes. In a way it means "make sure we start at the first location we have the whole width of the page to work with. Just edit one of the main pages, remove the - and show preview to see the difference (no need to save). It's a very useful little template :D. -- Prod (Talk) 07:48, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

Walkthrough pages
Our policy on walkthrough pages can be found here. If the person wants to see a listing of what's there, they should check the ToC. If they are just starting the game, they should go to where the walkthrough first points them. Check out Diablo II/Walkthrough for a good example.

About the ToC, scroll down a bit. It still needs some fixing up, which I'll do as soon as I get home (my browser is broken here, can't do much properly). Again, check the Diablo II/Table of Contents to see what it should look like. -- Prod (Talk) 17:00, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Leave it to Prod. This ToC expansion inclusion junk is his speciality. -- 19:36, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The whole ToC needs to be redone for both games (and they will be shared). I had posted all the info in one page, but then I realized my browser (at work) was a bit broken so I just left it until I got home.  I'm cleaning it up now so it should be much neater later. I'm on irc (type /join #strategywiki once connected) if you want to chat with me directly. -- Prod (Talk) 19:47, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, the toc page is redone. What do you think? -- Prod (Talk) 20:00, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Ew, but bravo! -- 20:12, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Karlcsr, is this resolved? I haven't been following the discussion, so I'm not quite sure what you think is wrong. -- 01:26, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Yea, we met up on IRC, so I believe it's resolved (at least for the most part). And thanks NMH :). -- Prod (Talk) 07:48, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My main goal is to make this as easy to use as possible, minimizing redundancy is just a means to that end. I've got a few questions regarding that. Answer whichever ones you feel are important.  Is there a story to the game?  Do you proceed through the campaigns/levels linearly (have to start with the first one, continue to the second) or can you pick whichever campaign you want to start with, and they happen "at the same time"?  Which guide was the person visiting, the original CnC:G or ZH?
 * To be clear, I'm not against having a few helpful links on the Walkthrough pages, I'm just against putting large portions of the ToC there.
 * I'm going to try working on this guide this weekend, hopefully get rid of some of the extra (mostly blank) pages and hopefully make it flow a little better. Leave whatever suggestions you think are necessary on my talk page and I'll try to work in whatever I can.  If you have msn, you can email me your info and we can chat over that.  One final style note, whenever adding successive comments, please indent with ':' so that we can easily tell where one comment ends and the next one begins.  Also, the reason we always thank for your efforts is because we greatly value all editors contributions.  It adds to the community, helps gamers who visit us, and we'd be nothing without them.  We don't want to scare anyone away, but we also need to keep the quality standards fairly high. -- 12:32, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The thing is, they have to eventually see the toc or they're missing out on most of the information. We want to minimize the time it takes them to get to a specific page they want.  Say the user is playing level 3 of the GLA campaign, and they decide they want to play the 4th level of the USA campaign next.  They have a few choices:


 * 1) Click the walkthrough button at the top to go back to the walkthrough page, and then from there go to the specific USA page. This involves two page loads.
 * 2) Click [Show] to see the complete toc (instantaneous) and go directly to the page they want. Only one page load, and they get access to ALL the information (which is also why we push people to add links to the ToC first, then create the page, so that it's always complete).
 * We want people to use the toc, because that's where all the information is. We would rather make the ToCs more visible instead of giving users workarounds to avoid it. -- Prod (Talk)
 * Sweet, we're getting discussed over lunch ^_^. As much as I love allegories, I have to kill the real life example here rather than the argument.  In public speaking, you HAVE to repeat yourself, because usually noone is listening to the whole thing, and you have to keep saying it so that they might hear you at least once.  Back to the "argument", I do believe that in the end, if we can't come to an agreement, you win by default (you're the author putting all the effort).  For the moment, you can put it as whatever you feel would be best, if it suffers the effects of redundancy, we can always get rid of it later. -- Prod (Talk) 14:19, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I hope you don't take my comments negatively, and I really don't want to add to your BP (I've worked in heart research as well :P). Anything I say is really a suggestion, and you CAN ignore me completely (I don't mind, just don't blank every page :P).  I've stuck to only suggesting things (for the most part) since you're doing a good job with it.  If I change something, and you don't like it, just undo it.  It's the spirit of the wiki, just Be bold!. -- Prod (Talk) 16:06, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Having looked through the guides again, I certainly think they're getting better. Some work could be done to stop things bunching up on the right-hand side in Command & Conquer: Generals/A Flood of Violence and other pages; something which Prod may sort out when he goes over the guide. I should probably also remind you that there are still two pages missing from the C&C:G guide, which is stopping it reaching completion level 4. ;-) (I'm staying out of this conversation about the walkthrough page, as you might have noticed. I trust you'll both reach a good solution.) Keep up the good work! :-) -- 16:18, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * You could mention to the author of the StarCraft guide about the thumbnails yourself --- you don't have to be staff to suggest things to people. As Prod said: be bold! :-) (Well, that and I'm going to bed now. ;-) -- 17:12, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Umm, are you guys talking about me? Baejung92 17:23, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Topic Part 2
Ok so what is the actual problem here? You want Zero Hour to have a big Walkthrough section like normal (a standard for our guides) which has minimal information and links to the various campaigns? If this is all it is, I don't understand why you're upset at Prod (I haven't seen specifically what he's saying you can't do, if you could reply to this and say it that would be helpful) because you should just go ahead and do it. The walkthrough page is a standard for a reason, it's like the only redundant thing we allow and 99% of the time require. -- 18:49, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I made this section so its easier to navigate to (who knows if it will fill up as much as the first part). I believe that Zero Hour is a good example where within the Walkthrough page redundant linking is allowable and preffered.  This is because as far as I know, the game is open ended and not limited to linear play (you can choose between campaigns).  The walkthrough page should contain information regarding this open ended style of play, what's recommended in the guide, and (in my opinion) the links to the three (or four is it?) set up in an original, graphical manner (get pictures of the names of the campaigns or the insignias or flags of the factions or something that distinguishes them apart and then place them in a row with the name underneath or something).  Walkthrough should also contain general information about how each guide page is laid out and what to expect.  Also, creativity and discussion of this topic is highly encouraged for setting precedence (we're still a new community, we can change if necessary).  -- 22:42, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

I just realized that the Walkthrough link in the toc for Zero Hour pointed to the wrong place, which might have caused some confusion. That's now been fixed. The next thing I'd like to do is delete the following 3 pages (Command & Conquer: Generals/China Campaign, Command & Conquer: Generals/GLA Campaign, and Command & Conquer: Generals/USA Campaign) and move their content to the Command & Conquer: Generals/Walkthrough page. -- Prod (Talk) 23:06, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Topic Part 3
Whenever I make a major edit like that, I always put a proper edit summary, please check the history. The default "standard" is what you have on Command & Conquer: Generals/Walkthrough, can't you do something like that for this page as well? -- Prod (Talk) 08:14, 27 November 2007 (CST)
 * I don't think the challenge links are necessary on the walkthrough page. I'm sure the average user would be able to see the generals challenge link and would click on that without having to see all the pages listed there (which also introduces a lot of clutter).  The generals challenge page is actually the most popular page in the cnc:za guide and as much as I'd like to move all that to the ToC, it's useful where it is right now. -- Prod (Talk) 15:02, 27 November 2007 (CST)
 * I apologize in advance for this turning into a rant, I'm sure you already know what I have to say so you can probably just skip it. I try to stay out of your way and I do value your input as a user and a guide writer. The fact that I have spent so much time discussing with you is testament to that. Please do not take anything I say harshly or "set in stone", it is merely meant as constructive suggestions.
 * You said you will be working on the walkthrough page further, and I am willing to wait. Let me know when you feel you are done, and I can give a review at that point and we can bring in other people to the discussion to see what they think.
 * In summary, I am 95% happy with what the top of the page looks like, but I don't like having the whole /Generals Challenge page copied to the Walkthrough page. (I would probably recommend skipping the rest of what I've written) -- Prod (Talk) 18:18, 27 November 2007 (CST)


 * To begin, I can tell you that apart from the main page of cnc:za, the generals challenge page is the most viewed page in the guide. It means that there are a lot of people who come for that, and they are going directly to that page without going thorough the walkthrough page, which is why I suggest we don't copy the info to the walkthrough page as well.  My main goal is standardization, and the benefit of that is if you understand how to get around one guide, you will know how to get around them all.  That is why we have the Header Nav at the top of every page, why all the guides have Table of Contents page which lists every page in the guide and why the all have /Walkthrough and /Getting Started pages.
 * As you seem to be fond of allegories, I will use one as well:
 * Consider this is a printed guide book: The cover just has a big picture of the game and a few words to get you to pick it up. The next page is the Table of Contents.  After that you get to the actual guide content pages.  The first of those pages usually tells a little bit about the game with some more colourful screenshots.  Then they start going through the guide level by level sequentially.  If you want to jump to another section of the guide, you go to the Table of Contents, and then find the page you want by it's page number.
 * We have a similar set up here, a main page with information about the guide, a walkthrough page which is just to start off the guide and point you in the right direction, and a toc so that the person can find any specific section they are looking for. Each page has a purpose and they have minimal overlap.  I don't want to delete all links to the guide from the main page, I only want to direct users to a few specific pages, namely the first level of each campaign, and the generals challenge lookup page. We added the ToC to the main page because new users may have trouble finding it and if they never find the ToC they can just use the main page.  I would suggest adding a prominent link to the toc on the walkthrough page to make sure they see it and not have to duplicate the same links over and over throughout the guide.
 * In response to what you said on my talk page, some of your comments are contradictory, and I do not want to risk discussing the wrong topics.

-- Prod (Talk) 18:18, 27 November 2007 (CST)
 * Karl, first of all, is what you said on my talk page still relevant or has things been resolved after you left that message? Secondly, are you referring to the Generals Walkthrough Page or Zero Hour Walkthrough page? I'm assuming it's the former, since that looks more like a stub to me. That said... I can't really comment much on this until I really know what's been going on and what you guys are disagreeing on, but right now I think that the current walkthrough page should keep the "microprint" content, just not in the footer nav. Off the top of my head I can think of having links that say "Click to get started with the China Campaign Walkthrough" or something, so people know the work has been done and the content is there. But I don't know, both you and Prod might hate my guts for even suggesting it. Like I said, I can't really comment much; I know you said there's no point with you guys discussing it further, but right now I don't see any other solution other than asking other people on the site what they think. Baejung92 22:53, 27 November 2007 (CST)
 * I'm not too sure what his suggestion is (could just be that it's late at night) so if it's not too much trouble, could you set it up for a part of the walkthrough page? I've set up what I'd like each section to look like in the China section.  For the generals section, if you could add some kind of image and say "continue to the generals page for a full listing" that would be fine with me. If you don't like it, feel free to revert the changes. -- Prod (Talk) 23:29, 28 November 2007 (CST)
 * Also, who are the enemies in the GLA section? Those need to be filled in for both the ToC and the generals page. -- Prod (Talk) 23:35, 28 November 2007 (CST)
 * Well, whenever you have the time, set up the way you are suggesting the generals section should look. -- Prod (Talk) 11:41, 30 November 2007 (CST)
 * Check out the latest version. Note the expanded toc at the bottom. -- Prod (Talk) 23:11, 1 December 2007 (CST)
 * The reason the full table of contents is shown down there is so you don't have to add links to all the missions, they're already all shown below. It also makes the "show/hide" links more obvious since they may actually look in the vicinity of that page (we use the full width for links) which means they might learn how to use the Header Nav's show button as well (making access to the full guide much easier).  If you really want links, I'd say just add section links to each of the three factions, not a full listing of levels. -- Prod (Talk) 13:22, 2 December 2007 (CST)

Featuredness
You certainly are. Congratulations, and good work on the guides so far! :-) --DrBob (talk) 12:06, 6 November 2007 (CST)

User:Echelon
Yes, he is. Check out Administrators. -- Prod (Talk) 11:41, 3 April 2008 (CDT)


 * In order to be compliant with GFDL, all contributions must credit their original sources. However, all credit is typically given in the edit summary, and not on the page directly.  We don't want to give credit to a particular URL inside of the text of a guide for a couple of reasons, but mostly because of fairness, e.g. why would your site be given a nod and not anyone else's?  However, if in the edit summary, you wish to say "Contributed by CNCGuides.com," by all means, that is acceptable, and it will be visible forever in the history.  It cannot be removed by anyone, unlike a URL put directly in the guide which can easily be erased.  As long as your comfortable with those terms, then there should be no problem.  Procyon (Talk) 13:23, 3 April 2008 (CDT)


 * No problem. I only interceded because Echelon checks his talk page once in a blue moon, and you weren't likely to get a response anytime soon.  Most of the admins are all on the same page when it comes to that stuff, so you can feel free to ask anyone of us, or ask your questions in the Staff Lounge or (if you're comfortable with a more public setting) ask them on the forums. Procyon (Talk) 15:21, 3 April 2008 (CDT)
 * I'm not sure if you know or not but Echelon has replied here-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 12:34, 5 April 2008 (CDT)
 * It's ( --~ ) and anyway, echelon's on IRC right now if you want to talk-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 15:01, 5 April 2008 (CDT)

LOTR: BFM-E II
Page created. -- 17:38, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

Stop being an ass
The title says it all. Besides, I've had much more experience at it here than you have. At any rate, we're trying to tell you that it's fine if you have the attribution link... just keep it where Echelon recommended (that is, above all of the rest of the external links on the guide's main page). Speaking of Echelon, he isn't God. He isn't our dictator. This is a community run site, and whatever the community decides goes. You are more than welcome to part of this community, and bring up new policies or raise questions about old ones on our Community Issues forums if you don't like how something is. You, however, chose to be a destructive member, needlessly flaming another member for merely trying to offer some helpful suggestions as to how you can keep your attribution on the guide. If you don't care about that, then fine. Go ahead and leave, you probably won't be missed since your lasting impression would be that of a toddler throwing a temper tantrum instead of that of someone who has put in a lot of hard work and dedication into something. Take a short break and think about that. Yes, it isn't what you originally wanted, but it is at least the majority of what you wanted. That's a fair compromise if I do say so myself. If you don't think it is, then sit back for a moment and think. Think really hard: "Why am I being such an ass? I was given permission by echelon to have credit, and echelon suggested putting it at the bottom of the guide's main page, above the other external links. When I did something else, Garrett reverted me and I asked him why politely, in a valid way. However, when Notmyhandle came around and said the exact same thing that echelon did, I decided to get into a hissy-fit and be an ass, but why? Why did something that I not only agreed to but thanked echelon for initially become off-limits when someone else restated it?" Think about that, then cool off a bit before you decide to come after me. -- 23:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Seconded. I agree with everything Skizzerz said, so there's not much else to add.  I gave you a perfectly acceptable solution to your problem: Put your credits in the page edit history.  That way, not only is it visible to everyone on the site, but it can never be taken away by anyone.  You are not special here.  No one is.  There is no reason why you should be permitted to credit your work by linking to another site when no one else can.  If you really insist that the content be deleted if you can't include the link, than I would happily prefer that the content be deleted than to have the staff be forced to deal with a user's temper tantrum.  Procyon (Talk) 00:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind your criticism, it has helped us improve some of the aspects of the site. However, insulting the people here will not be tolerated. Good Bye. Sorry, I forgot my sign (first time in months >.<). I would suggest you add the link to the front page (which guide is this all about anywayz). -- Prod (Talk) 02:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Bravo, that was quite a performance. Not only did you completely blow this matter out of proportion, but you managed to flame the wrong person.  Skizzerz left you the original message, I just backed him up.  But you couldn't handle constructive criticism, so you had to explode with some insane tirade about how insulted you were that your credit was removed (when in fact, it is forever documented in the history of the page.)  Go cry to someone who gives a damn.  I have contributed well over 100 guides to this site, and not one of them has a link to my home page.  Not on a walkthrough page, not on the front page, no where.  Frankly, your departure from this site will not be mourned, it will be celebrated.  Good luck in life.  You'll be needing it. Procyon (Talk) 02:51, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

A note - in case you ever come back
I still don't get why you reacted so strangely. You are credited permanently for everything you did (check the history of a page and voila). We offered you the link on the front page of the guide, which would get more traffic, AND work within our policies. Most importantly, by using this site, you released all of your work published here into the Public Domain under the GFDL. That is to say, it is reproducible as long as you are credited. Finally, Ech owns the website, he does not control or dictate its policies. None of us get payed for this, and all of us comply with what seems a very fair and clean structure for a website. At least you didn't submit your work to Wikicheats, where all of it would be copyrighted by GameTrailers.com. Pay attention to the sites you use. -- 03:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You don't want nitpicking, so I'll keep this simple. Garrett was making a valid edit from his perspective based on the policies we have in place, and you made a very harsh reply.  We can take constructive criticism, but most people who see your comments have had enough. We recognize you've put a lot of effort into the guide, but others have done the same for their guides and manage to work within the framework we've laid out.  I cannot condone deleting the guides, because there are other people who have worked to clean up the content, copy-edit, etc.  Most of us really don't care about your Buddhist training, we want a short simple answer of what the issue is.  Here's mine: We remove the link to your site from all the subpages, and put it in the external links section on the front page.  What I need from you is the name of the game.  -- Prod (Talk) 06:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)