StrategyWiki:Staff lounge

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Keyboard chart template
I created a keyboard command chart template at Template:Kbdchart. You can see it in action at Gothic/Controls. I have a small database of keyboard commands and will start adding them to articles in the next couple of days. Posfan12 16:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This template looks pretty cool, but there are multiple problems with it that don't make it a fit for our wiki. First of all, it's huge. At 1440×900 screen resolution, it still renders well off the side of the screen for me. Of more importance, this is a duplication of a method we already have for displaying keyboard controls, the kbd template. I don't think it's a fitting replacement as it's very much more complicated, creates tons of "whitespace" for unused keys and doesn't provide the room within a key's box for longer sentences often used to describe controls. I like how key groups can be colored, but other than that, I feel that our simpler, more versatile method is superior. Of least importance is the template's appearance, which doesn't really fit the wiki. We don't use large, colorful elements like that, from what I've seen. Anyway, people can add their opinions and you can clarify or bring up additional points here, but in the future you might want to run things like this by the community before spending a lot of time and effort on it. We've been around for five years now, and I can assure you that keyboard control formatting has come up before. :D — najzere T 20:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Bad example. Here's one with less empty whitespace: Descent: FreeSpace - The Great War/Controls. Posfan12 01:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice idea. =D The criticism I would have for it though is, as Najzere stated above, it's really big. I don't know how big your computer screen is (I know it depends on the type of computer you have, because there's another laptop in my house that's 5x bigger than mine, and you can see much more without scrolling on that one, as everything appears more stretched) but on mine, it kind of goes off the screen. =/ Also, are you planning to replace that with the original control templates for PC? Again, Najzere mentioned this above. Otherwise, it's a nice idea for a control diagram...though I'm not sure how that would fit in with the rest of the control templates. =/-- E-123Wario54 The Temple of TalkFFI black mage (8-bit).gif 02:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I don't see why the existing template should no longer be used - they work fine together. Also, I placed the template in its own scrollable container, so it should not affect the entire page flow any longer. Posfan12 03:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The default template looks much better now and the scrollable wrapper is an improvement. I'm still not a fan of its complexity, that it isn't in the standard format which all other controls are in (e.g. we don't try to mock up console controllers like this either), and it means a different section on multi-platform games' controls pages instead of simply adding a Windows column and having the control information located in one place. I hate to keep harping on the colors, but, with the exclusion of guide-specific templates, we like to stick mainly to light grays and blues, so the charts you've made are extremely jarring to my sense of the wiki's color scheme. At any rate, I think you have enough example charts out there now, so until we reach a consensus on this bold new method, please hold off on adding any more control information that isn't in line with what is outlined in the user guide. Hopefully this topic gets some attention this weekend, so we can get this resolved quickly for you. Thanks, — najzere T 22:03, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The style can be pretty easily changed to pastel colors if you have any particular ones in mind. Posfan12 03:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * While I'm not opposed to the use of colors if they're used effectively, some of your examples have cases where the text and background colors clash, making them hard to read. The need to horizontally scroll it means it can't be printed properly, and it sometimes packs too much text into the small space of a key, leading to some cases where the text overlaps. And what happens if the text is too long to fit in the key? Add to that the empty whitespace in unused keys, the fact that it doesn't integrate with other platforms for multiplatform games, the lack of mouse controls, and the fact that it requires referring to keys by ASCII numbers instead of names, and I don't really see the advantage of using this over the kbd template. Wanderer 20:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've created over ninety of these charts and haven't come across one yet where an action couldn't be described in just a few words. The only problem is when multiple actions are assigned to the same key under different contexts - the "strategic" and "tactical" modes in the Total War series for instance. But in these cases a chart can be created for each mode. As for overlapping text, there's not much that can be done. Hopefully the colors are enough to distinguish commands from one another. If you have any suggestions as to different colors, I would like to hear them. I also couldn't think of a better way of labeling the parameters other than numbering them. Using the characters themselves will create all sorts of technical and rendering issues. Posfan12 23:55, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding the colors, I'm just saying it's necessary to have a strong contrast between text and background colors. You don't want light text on a light background, or dark text on a dark background. That makes it hard to read. You've got black text and light text together on the same backgrounds, and both light and dark background colors. If the text is light, the background should be dark, and vice-versa. Consider more "muted" or desaturated colors for backgrounds, and darker colors for the Shift, Ctrl, and Alt text. As for labeling parameters, why not just use descriptive names, such as "LCtrl", "LAlt", "Tab", "Space", "PageUp", "Apostrophe", "Backslash", "OpenSquareBracket", etc.? That'd be easier to remember than ASCII numbers.Wanderer 02:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Good ideas. If you could pick out some colors for me that would be great. Posfan12 05:34, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, regarding printing. The chart is not going to print properly regardless of whether it's in a scrollable container or not. Both IE and Firefox ignore anything past the right edge of the screen (or page rather). The only thing you can do is rotate the chart vertically, and that's only possible with IE-proprietary CSS filters. Posfan12 05:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If we could inline SVG this, it would be amazing! Too bad MediaWiki/browsers can't handle that yet...
 * I think it could be useful, especially for people who want to print it out. But this would mostly be useful for extremely complicated layouts (like freespace).  Simpler ones should probably stick to the current layout.
 * Shrinking the whole thing would definitely reduce it's effectiveness and get overcrowded, so I don't think that's really an option. I would suggest splitting it into a few more templates for added flexibility.  Breaking off the Legend and Numpad into their own templates might be useful.  Can it support the apple command key? A border around the whole thing might also look nicer. I feel it's a bit redundant to have both upper and lower-case letters, as those are obvious. Same with the "L" and "R" on the Ctrl type keys. -- Prod (Talk) 04:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have schemas for French, German and Mac keyboards ready to go as well. (A few more than that actually, IIRC.) Posfan12 16:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * One thing I think is possible but I don't know how to do yet is to allow readers to print portions of a web page (the key chart for instance) at a time. I'm not sure if this can be accomplished using only CSS, or whether greater website integration is required. There's an article about a special printer driver/browser plugin that accomplishes this in this month's PC World, so maybe it can only be done at the operating system level. Posfan12 09:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)