User talk:Abacos

Welcome to StrategyWiki!
Hello Abacos! Welcome to StrategyWiki. Thank you for your contributions. If you have any questions, just contact a sysop through their talk page or post on the staff lounge, and they'd be happy to help. If you need help editing, check the StrategyWiki Guide or visit the IRC channel to chat, we're usually around. On the other hand, if you have ideas for StrategyWiki, bring them up on the forums. To keep up-to-date with the goings on of the wiki, consider adding the noticeboard to your watchlist.

Please remember to sign your name when leaving comments on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (    ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Feel free to delete this message from your talk page if you like, or keep it for reference. Happy editing! — 19:21, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Pokemon taxonomy
Aha, I got a kick out of your user page. Very cool! -- 20:36, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. For a user whose only constructive edit to the site has been one small grammatical correction, I'm not certain how much we should support multiple and frequent edits to content on a user page which, while creative, provides no benefit to the site or its users, and would be more suited for Google Drive. I would much prefer to see you making more constructive and factual edits to guides that we could use much more help with.  Pro cyon  16:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * (lol @ NotMyHandle's response on my talk page.) He is correct, I'm an admin and one of the co-owners of the site, but I don't like to throw my weight around. I was merely expressing my opinion. You're welcome to continue editing your user page, I would just prefer to see some other helpful edits around the site. Goodness knows I make my share of typos and errors (as you have seen), so I know there are plenty to fix. Off the record, I understand and sympathize with your philosophical position, I'm just not sure that you're going to convince Creationists about evolution by using Pokemon as an example of proof...  Pro  cyon  17:02, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I have no intention of booting you off just for working on your user page. I'm just protective of the site from people who use it exclusively for their own personal scratch pad instead of contributing useful edits as well.  Again, I understand your position, and I'm like minded, but arguing the point here is like traveling to Columbia to argue your position on Palestinian-Israeli relations; no in Columbia cares.  I highly doubt that anyone with an opposing position to yours is going to come to this site, see your user page, and be swayed by your arguments.  And from personal experience, the amount of effort you pour into convincing them usually does not produce satisfying results.   Pro  cyon  21:54, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Paco beat me to it, but yes, everyone is welcome to begin a new guide, no matter how new they are to the site. The admins will help and make sure to include any formatting details you might have missed.  So please feel free, anyone who wants to add an old-school RPG definitely has my blessing (not that they need it, just saying...)   Pro  cyon  14:38, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Have you looked up what the term is for "evolution" in Pokemon in the original Japanese games? It would be interesting to see what word they use compared to English. -- 16:37, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Japanesu Nihongo
 * NMH's question really interested me, so I did some research. On the Japanese Wikipedia page, they use the term shinka (進化), which is literally translated as evolution.  進 means progress and 化 means the action of becoming.  Very interestingly, the article goes into some of the changes made to the game to make it acceptable in Islamic regions where the term "evolution" was forbidden.  Although this is now a translation from Arabic to Japanese, the Japanese term used to replace 進化 is hentai (変態) which in this context is translated as metamorphosis or transformation, although it also means pervert or weirdo in Japanese, and where the English term for animated pornography originates.  Pro  cyon  16:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Mega Man Battle Network/Battle Chips
I moved the explanation to the beginning of the article. There shouldn't be anything afterwards; reference-like notes aren't necessary. A general description of battle chips or a link to a different section would be useful (I'm just brainstorming). My main reason for posting here was to request that you provide an example of how to read the data in the "Program advance" column. Like, "For example, FtrSword's Program's strength is (l3*) 2xHero B, and if you use the chip in n.1 it..." (I have no prior knowledge of this game, nor the mechanics/layout of the menus/equipment allocation process; such an explanation would be very nice at /Getting Started. -- 03:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * What do the stars mean on the Program Advance page, such as "10x HeroSwrd B*****"? -- 16:31, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info! So, are the stars actually part of the name in the game? Or do they have a separate "Stars"-like stat? -- 15:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Then it looks like the entries in the star columns, such as "07" should just be single digit "7" (no significant digits necessary here). Also, under Suggested Folders there is this sentence which I am confused about,
 * "Some chips are available in one copy only in the video game, therefore it would be necessary to link two GameBoys-Advance and exchange chips to gather more of the same type."
 * Do you mean,
 * "Some chips are available only once in the game. As such, to acquire more of the same unique chip it is necessary to link two Game Boy Advances and transfer a chip acquired in the other game cartridge."
 * -- 17:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, great. Would you mind jotting down these nuances at the start of the page? Thanks. -- 17:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Final Fantasy white magic
Hi Abacos. It's fine if you want to expand the existing spell information on the white magic page, but the page is already big enough and the last thing it needs is another table with redundant information. Having the information sortable really isn't very helpful.  Pro cyon  02:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Feel free to create mock-ups at User:Abacos/Sandbox. The column with the type shouldn't have "a - type" or "c - type" in the cell; just "type". I think the consolidated table was harder to read than the split up tables. -- 15:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Suggestion: remove Sun-Tzu classifications and replace with "Non-combat", "Support", "Debuff", and "Attack". I think those are all straight forward; especially since the target column right next to it clarifies it. -- 17:23, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm not certain what benefit reducing the eight tables into one giant table will provide. The presentation of the spells according to the eight levels provides a clear enough breakdown of all 32 spell without potentially confusing matters by forcing users to hunt for the spell they are looking for in a huge list. What do you propose a large table will help clarify?  Pro cyon  03:28, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Our standard is sentence case; do not capitalize any words in a title beyond the first that are not pronouns
Thank you. -- 21:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * NMH is not talking about game titles, he's talking about walkthrough headers, those things between the equal signs. For example:

This Is Wrong

 * Game titles should always be capitalized, except for the words like "the," "or," "a," "an," "and," or "to" and prepositions of four letters or fewer unless they are the first word in the title. For example:

 Pro cyon  03:06, 16 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "Why making a grammar difference?" I got a kick out of that one. The main thing here, that you haven't realized for the sake of argument, is that we do not identify headers as actual titles, such as with the title of a novel. Maybe you can help change that stance.  The point was to standardize the layout of the site for monitoring purposes.  -- 17:55, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * My "shorter" answer. If it's copied from in-game, match the case.  Otherwise, sentence case. -- Prod (talk) 18:01, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Ability/item classifications
"Peace" doesn't make any sense to me. Support is also peaceful. Healing spells are restorative; better classified as "Restoration" or simply "Support." Non-combat is a widely used term for out of battle skills, such as exit. I suggest that we break down the classifications into more specific ones (e.g. Support into Buff and Healing/Restoration) and use Non-combat for those special skills; it is also a good way to mark support skills that can be used out of battle (so a healing spell could be listed as two types: Restoration as well as Non-combat). -- 18:00, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The five make sense to me. Sorry to be so against "Peace" - it is just ambiguous when used in this context. Times of "peace" may not be peaceful; e.g. if you're walking around in a dungeon with monsters nearby... It's just too odd, whereas non-combat is straightforward. -- 00:02, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Non-combat is more specific than "Miscellaneous spells", which is also what they are. We could make things even MORE complicated and just call them "teleportation" or "telekinetic" spells... Really, these type designations are arbitrary and not really that useful if the individual spell info has these details explained on a per-spell basis. The point is to come up with type designations that are shorthand for certain properties; e.g. "Non-combat" means either "This cannot be used in battle" or "This can be used outside of battle." This is important for healing spells that may be used in combat, but may not be used outside of battle (depending on the game/ability). I was against the type column for these games for this specific reason, since the designations are not specific. -- 16:25, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Travel looks fine. Make sure the type designation applies accurately to all of the spells in a list (each game needs to be reviewed individually for exceptions). Also, please remove the blank rows. They are unnecessary and add junk space when sorting. -- 23:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I noticed in DW3 or 4 spells that Antidote was listed as travel. Is it not useable in battle as well? -- 16:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It can be used in Battle and outside of it. Paco (talk) 18:40, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Abacos thinks it can only be used outside of battle... -- 19:51, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, in DW3 it can be used in Battle and Outside. I'm not sure for DW4 though. Paco (talk) 08:49, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Roger that. @Abacos: I saw your comments on Paco's page. There's no need to duplicate the conversation on multiple pages unless you really want me to comment, like I did so, here. I have both of your talk pages on my watch list so I see the changes that are made. -- 21:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Exploration/Combat
Those are not categories, they are use cases. I changed the header of the column from "Type" to "Use". Look, Abacos, I'm speaking strictly for myself here as a guide writer and user of the site, and not as an administrator, but I don't think trying to find a universal (and highly subjective) classification system for spells across RPGs is a productive area for SW guides to explore. If there are in-game classifications like Final Fantasy's Black and White magic, then it belongs in the guide. Otherwise, the amount of confusion and disagreement it lends is greater than the amount of informative help it provides. It would be far more helpful if you help generate content for guides that don't yet exist, than to attempt to apply deeper analysis to existing guides. That kind of contribution, while interesting from a philosophical stand point, is generally outside of the scope of this site, or at best, left to the talk pages of a guide instead of in the guides themselves. Other editors may disagree with me, and that's fine, we run the site democratically, but I am somewhat dismayed by the amount of distraction this discussion has caused. Again, this is simply my personal opinion. Finally, yes, there are Illustrations for DW4 magic, but that was released in 1990, and I'm quite far from there, still stuck in the first quarter of 1988, so it will be a while before I get around to obtaining and scanning the pictures.  Pro cyon  22:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You can continue working on anything. The point here is to not create more work than necessary, and to stay objective/confined to the information presented within the game. Original research, to some degree, and "subjective" classifications are unnecessary and could potentially be removed by future editors, since it may be difficult to complete if left unfinished. Also, recreating tables, when the data is already in a readable format, is also unnecessary. If it is objective to the game, however, it will not. Keep it simple! -- 16:49, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * By all means, please build a guide for Ultima 4. I'm not slated to work on that for a long time, and it's not one of the RPGs that I'm more familiar with so I think that would be great.  In fact, if you wanted to expand the walkthrough for Ultima 3, that would be cool too.  Pro  cyon  22:57, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, we have to start somewhere. The NES version is just as good as any other. As far as http://codex.ultimaaiera.com is concerned, based on their licensing you must adhere to the following:
 * "Attribution — You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work)."
 * So, in the edit summary, just put the URL of the page(s) you copied from. -- 15:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * But Abacos is the actual author, so according to the "copyright" (or copyleft), he's free to take the information and place it wherever he likes. All the attribution would be doing in this case is indicating that he is the original author of the material found on another site, which sort of cancels out the need for attribution.  It's like, "Hey, I'm attributing this work to the original author, which happens to be myself."  So bottom line, I think you're free to bring your specific contributions over without attribution.  However, if you whole sale lift the current text from the codex pages, then you have to attribute since you are not the sole author of that work, and you must also attribute any other contributors.  So, that's where this all stands.   Pro  cyon  02:28, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The original text you wrote is perfectly fine to put here without any additional attribution. If you go back to the version you wrote, you can copy it here.  If you incorporate changes made by anyone else, you have to attribute them.  I'd say it'd just be easiest to copy paste the info and place a link to the source in the edit history, since our licenses are both CC-BY-SA. This way it avoids any ambiguity of sourcing in the future.  -- Prod (talk) 01:41, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Dragon Warrior 3 merchant
How is the merchant useful at end game? In your "different approach" party setup you transformed a thief into a merchant at the end... -- 16:54, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Ultima 4 inverted triangle
The text inside the triangle has "DEX" and "INT" swapped and in the wrong places. -- 16:58, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Mega Man Zero names
AFAIK, they don't actually number the missions in-game, and doesn't really add anything to the ToC. If you want the walkthrough pages numbered, switch to an ordered list (#) instead of unordered (*). -- Prod (talk) 19:21, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Adding talk page sections
To add a new section at the end to a talk page, beside the "Edit" button at the top, there's a "+" sign. Clicking that will start a new section for you. -- Prod (talk) 01:18, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Mystic Ark
I have mapped this Game thoroughly with help from someone so you should check it out. Paco (talk) 08:49, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

wip
wip is one of our cleanup/maintenance tags. Wikipedia usually does their tags similarly to our stub with a big banner. Our maintenance tags were designed to be inconspicuous and appear in the sidebar under the toolbox on BlueCloud (our previous primary skin) and Monobook (which I use to edit). These tags do not appear in Dolphin (the new default skin). If you switch to Monobook, you'll notice it in the bottom left of the left hand column; it has text if you put your mouse over it. -- 17:22, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also note: we rarely use wip because we consider all of the pages to be a work in progress, forever (who knows what re-releases and patches hold for gaming history). We remove wip tags if they have been there for more than a month. Most people who put a wip tag on a page eventually forget about the project and leave the tag by accident. -- 17:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Nah, I'm tired of bothering you about semantics. Plus, I get it and I think most people do, too. Try not to create too much additional work for yourself. This project has enough in its scope already. -- 17:32, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Image categorisation
When uploading images, please make sure to categorise them using the correct image categories and the guide-specific category, i.e.  Category:Game Name images. Please see our image policy for more details. Thanks for helping to keep our images neat! — 17:35, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Quest 64 etymology
Since you've already created a subpage, you might as well keep the details of the names kept listed on that page, rather than in the walkthrough. -- 22:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Use of "video game"
The scope of this wiki only includes video games, so the word video on this wiki can be omitted in every case. -- 16:08, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Final Fantasy Armor tables
What are these sorted by? Not alphabetically, not by absorption... Order of appearance? -- 16:07, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Final Fantasy 7 weapon "values"
Is "Value" a property assigned/labeled in game? Why not use "Price" and replace the 99999's with n/a? -- 16:23, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * They are not synonymous. "Value" is arbitrary and can be used out of the context of shopping (e.g. attack value), whereas price is what the vendor sells it for. You could specify "Gold value", but the found items have a value of zero. Since they don't have any price at all, their prices are not applicable to the table. If the column were price, the cell contents could alternately be "Free" or "Found". But really, if you're sorting by price, you're looking at which items to buy when, and how much you'll have to save up. The only information people want to know about the found items is how to get them. I see you made the change, cool. One other thing - why create an arbitrary designation for the "value"? n/a is accurate to its price, and doesn't construe the table's sorting ability. Even though they may be "zero" in terms of coming before the lowest value, the n/a cells are visually distinct and can be ignored by readers. -- 17:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We tend to prefer a separate column for the sell value; it can be displayed as a pseudo column, with an explanation of the column above table, like so: "12/6", or we could take the brains out of it and just make the second column. We can do a col-span, but that will break the sorting ability of the table, which is nice, so I'd rather do "Price" and "Sell value". Give me a moment while I touch your sandbox. -- 17:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's fine. It saves more space that way. -- 17:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Why not use 0 instead of 2, and add another note? Listing it as "2" is false, since they don't have a price. -- 21:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Aha, sorry for any trouble I've caused. I like figuring out the best course of action. -- 23:10, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Mega Man Zero 2/Forms
Why not combine both listings into one table? -- 15:09, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

7th Saga Monster images
Can you send me all images? I will make it transparent, croping and finally throwing in PNGGauntlet and reupload it all. Paco (talk) 16:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But not all pics are uploaded yet and i don't want to download each images as that take time, so its easier to just pack it all in a zipfile and upload it on mediafire or so and give me the downloadurl over "E-mail this User" or here whatever you like it better. If you like the color, then you can set it in the Table cell with Background color. Paco (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's probably easier to use an online host, like http://www.filefactory.com/ -- 19:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * mediafire was just a example, there are plenty other hosting site. Thanks for the hint with saving the page with the images on HDD (didn't thought of it o_0). If you want the exact color from the Background, then it's #505050. just neeeded to load one pic in Paint and choose the color and then check the RGB number and convert it to Hexadecimal number. Paco (talk) 20:37, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * reuploaded it all. What do you think? Oh also please don't upload pics in big case like XXX.PNG but in small case like xxx.png. Thanks. Paco (talk) 10:22, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Final Fantasy 3 jobs
What do the trailing hyphens mean, here? -- 22:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I overlooked the comma. I've never seen a trailing hyphen used in this context. Usually it occurs when alphabetizing lists that include titles that start with "The". -- 16:20, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Final Fantasy IV/Call Magic
What does "Dropped by enemies" imply? Do enemies use that ability? Is it an item that can be acquired? -- 20:18, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You need to get the Items from those Monster by the same Name to summon it. To get the Bomb Summon, you need to fight Bombs until they drop a "Bomb Item" which let you learn Bomb Summon. Paco (talk) 21:13, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, I will add that item info, since it was missing. -- 16:10, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I did it already, as soon as you two wrote me here :-) --Abacos (talk) 16:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Aha, I didn't see your edit. Oh well, my additions aren't excessive. -- 16:38, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Final Fantasy/Armor
On Final Fantasy/Armor, the use of the NES name is confusing and ambiguous without an explanation. Is the NES version the only one that uses an alternate name to the titles you added for "Body armor", etc.? -- 19:32, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * My apologies. I had assumed you had organized the page. I am referring to the difference between the item's name, and the "NES" name, even though the first version was the NES's, wasn't it? Getting the naming differences down is important to having a multi-console integrated guide. In regards to the party ratings, I believe they should be scrapped. All of the existing ratings were created by Koweja, with no apparent system. If you want to redo them with objective facts you can try, but I think it's too difficult and much too time consuming to test each party configuration for specifics like the relationship bewtween average damage per turn and average party level. -- 20:38, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I know naming differences is a big task, so if you could add a note at the top of the page regarding version differences, that would help clear up the ambiguity of the information, to a degree. -- 15:38, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Ultima 5
It will be easier to keep the discussion on this talk page rather than going back and forth between yours and mine. First of all, should the NES version have its own guide page? E.g. Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny (NES)? If the NES version requires its own walkthrough, due to significant differences, then it should be separate. Otherwise, the pages should be integrated into the existing walkthrough. To get it to stage three, all you have to do is finish the walkthrough in text form. Also, you should probably add keys/legends to a corner of each map unless all of the symbols are sprites from the game. Even so, it can be helpful. -- 15:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback. (1) Ok, I'll integrate the NES walkthrough in the main one, possibly just adding a "NES differences" section in the various pages. (2) All the maps I put in are made exclusively of screenshots, except for the red lines (sometimes yellow or green) that connect the stepladders. (3) I'll proceed to describe in text form how to navigate the dungeons. --Abacos (talk) 15:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Simple enough. If you're only playing the NES version, you could finish the walkthrough pages you were working on and continue with that trend, then go back and see if integration is possible. It is easier to move the pages to the (NES) guide than to integrate/chop up the content. I'm just worried that with all of the different ports we could end up with tons of little version-specific notes. -- 16:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I checked, but the NES walkthrough, that is complete, is definitely different from the DOS one. As fas as I know, the NES version is the only one that is significantly different from the others, but it is known to be probably the worse port of any video game in the Ultima series. If a page by itself is made, I wonder how many people would visit it. Still, it would be easier and faster to make a separate guide, and I would have done two guides instead of one ;-) --Abacos (talk) 18:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, let's separate them then. -- 22:50, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I've been thinking about this, particularly because of Double Dragon, and I'm definitely in favor of separating the two. It can be hard to distinguish between ports that are relatively close to the original, but contain a few changes or additions (e.g. Dragon Warrior III and it's upgrades) vs. game that are so significantly different that they merit their own walkthrough (e.g. Salamander and Life Force).  In general, I would trust the author as an authority on the matter, and in this case, it seems fitting.  Out of curiosity, Abacos, do Ultima III and IV warrant the same treatment?  Pro  cyon  23:13, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Done. Also, Abacos, we will want to incorporate a "version differences" section somewhere. [This page http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/NES-Port_of_Ultima_V] has a good (maybe comprehensive) view. The games that are the easiest to split have significantly different graphics. -- 23:19, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Notmyhandle, thanks for the splitting, I was planning to do it in the weekend (if my girlfriend would have given me time).

Procyon, I only played the NES versions of Ultima 3 and 4. From the existing walkthrough of Ultima 3 I can see that the dungeons (the most important part of a written walkthrough, I think) are identical in DOS and NES, only the names are different; therefore, one guide will do. I'm planning to play sooner or later the Sega MS port of Ultima 4, as it is known to be a faithful port of the DOS one, with just improved graphics and sound; I'll let you know. --Abacos (talk) 06:11, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Striking a balance
Hi Abacos. I moved your DW3 class triangle back down to the bottom of the page, but I wanted to explain why. It would be difficult for a new-comer to DW3 to understand your triangle before he or she is even introduced to the classes at all. A lot (most really) of your information is best suited for RPG experts, but you also have to consider that beginners need a good introduction to the material as well. That's why I was upset with your edits to Final Fantasy/Parties. You need to understand that a good guide writer caters to both the novice as well as the expert players. In fact, the novice players should be your first concern since they're the ones that need the help. Experts are just looking for "food for thought" as they say. Please keep this in mind as you continue to edit guides.

On the subject of editing, I notice that you make a lot of edits to armor and weapon pages. While I can definitely understand and sympathize with wanting to improve upon, or clarify, data presentation in tables, after a while you kind of have to go with one format and stick with it. Please do your best to settle upon one approach that you like best, apply it to a page, and then let it go for a while. Come back to it only if you learn something crucial through work that you do on other guides. Thanks.  Pro cyon  10:37, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Dragon Warrior 3 "bonus dungeon"
The new page is Dragon Warrior III/Sky World. Please migrate your changes there and mark the old page for deletion. Sorry for the edit conflict. -- 16:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * While you were commenting on my page I copied the content from /Bonus Dungeon over the top of /Sky World and compared diffs to see that they were the same. Use Reason at the top of a page to mark something (pages, templates, images, etc.) to be deleted. Usually you include a reason, but I am following the issue so it wouldn't be necessary in this case. Looks like we're good now. Resolved. -- 17:25, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Kickle Cubicle
Oh, I see what happened. I didn't mean to roll back your translation, I thought I was just rolling back the edit you made that broke the European release date template. You can't put the date values in any order you like, it has to go eu|year|date, and the date part is optional. Labyrinth for the translation is fine.  Pro cyon  00:54, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you want me to set up a set of Japanese pages for you? It seems like you're holding back information because you want to subpage it? -- 17:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What I meant was, it looked like you hadn't created separate pages in the ToC for the Japanese versions of each world. So I was thinking of setting up pages like Kickle Cubicle/Garden Land (Japan) that would sit next to the western Garden Land link in the ToC. Take your time. -- 16:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I see, so the plan is to move the japanese island images to each level section, right? And also append an extra note for the Japanese solutions if necessary? -- 20:12, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait, it looks like you already did that... Lol -- 20:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * For each world's table of contents/layout, are you planning on creating a custom ToC or should we put the Japanese island number in the header next to the western? -- 21:16, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * After creating a custom ToC for Garden Land, I can see that this is not the way to go. A separate Japanese page for each world would be much better. Trying to align each version's islands doesn't make sense. Although they may look similar, they have different solutions and their order is completely off, especially when some of the islands are on other pages. I'll create the pages in the ToC for now. -- 16:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Here's where I'm confused: if someone is playing the Japanese game from start to finish, is there a fixed order? I understand that they can choose to play any level, but how are the levels ordered on the selection screen? If you beat a level, does it take you to the next one or back to the selection screen (this is info that would go on the Getting Started or Walkthrough page). -- 16:58, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Aha, ok. =) Take your time. -- 17:12, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The easiest way to deal with this is to simply set up single page for the Japanese version of the game that shows a picture of each level in each world, with a link to the location where the American solution is written (or the full blown solutions when they differ enough to warrant one.) We do something similar for the stage arrangement in Vs. Super Mario Bros..   Pro  cyon  04:35, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I updated the color of the tables on Garden Land, as requested. -- 03:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Enhanced sprites
Abacos, TyrannoRanger got the idea for the enhanced sprites from me. If you look at most of the guides for 8-bit games, they're all over the site. We get it, you don't like them. There's nothing to discuss.  Pro cyon  05:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Final Fantasy I & II: Dawn of Souls/Soul of Rebirth deletion
Does Final Fantasy I & II: Dawn of Souls/Soul of Rebirth need to exist? What is it? -- 22:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I assume it is the title of a side quest or alternate campaign. In which case, it doesn't need to exist and the ToC entry can be changed to a bold title or h3. -- 22:05, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, is the Unknown cave spelled that way, or is it "The Unknown Cave" or is it not special at all and none of the words capitalized? -- 22:10, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I think we should not obfuscate the area names to match the storyline progression. That is, we should use the real names. Otherwise, find a different way to organize the walkthrough (are there labeled save points or chapters?). This sort of spoiler is negligible. -- 18:29, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay. I understand. That's fine. This may be the first time we've had a subpage with a lowercase letter after the /. Or wait, are you going to keep it sentence case even though it's a title? -- 03:28, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Those rules sound fine to me. Just make sure the page name/ToC link adheres to the title rule you specified on my talk page. -- 19:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The Allusions Section of Mega Man Zero 2: Ideas
Hrm... fine question. This game has several notable things to point out. I would guess that a nice chunk of the allusions would be in-game references to the Mega Man X series, such as Phoenix Magnion's attack that spawms Vile, Colonel, Bit, and Agile, all from the first four X titles. Another one is at the start of the game- if you bring up the sub-screen, it's a worn-down version of the screen from the previous game, which Ciel later replaces afterwards with a new subscreen device to replace the tattered original. You can also note the mythology of the game. Like for instance, "Yggdrasil" is the biblical Tree of Life, which is that mechanical construct X's immobile body is strapped to near the game's end- a cyber-mechanical tree that creates energy to power and protect Neo Arcadia. The names of the Reploids and Guardians are also based of mythological creatures. You can find the meanings of their names on the Mega Man Knowledge Base by looking up the character pages. Finally, there should also be a small section with trivia so we can alert the reader Hidden Phantom could transform into an enhanced state like the other Guardians. I don't mean to be replying a good month after this message, but I just now caught up to my account since college died down. I'm very pleased to know you've taken interest in my work, and I shall see if we can find screenshots to pad out the text as well. I'll try to pitch in as much as I need to. Thanks! --Superpowered Mario (talk) 05:52, 24 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Your ideas for the layout are nicely planned. Put it to work when you have time. I'm counting on your help. As for my grammar, I hate it, too. I'm slightly dyslexic, so give me a break, if you would. Notice I tried to use colons and semicolons besides hyphens in the later sections of the guide. I originally made these articles a few years ago in haste, then came back to gloss over the rough edges. However, the walkthrough is so long, it can get repetitive in places. I tried to string together words to avoid making it sound stale, sometimes leaving parts a bit nauseous to read. That's why I withdrew from the article and figured someone else would tidy up my mess if I missed something. The next step is to boot up an emulated copy of the game on VirtualBoyAdvance so I may use the Screen Capture feature and provide the article with a fast supply of screenshots, although we can't have them in excess. Have a safe New Year's! :D --Superpowered Mario (talk) 22:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I was going to say something, but then I chose to wait for SPM's response. Criticizing someone over their use of grammar or punctuation is in very poor taste.  Everyone makes mistakes, including you.  As long as another user is trying their best, please keep your comments constructive and save the criticism for when you edit an article.  Thanks.   Pro  cyon  23:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

That's perfectly fine. You were kind enough to apologize. It's a rare sight on the Internet and I appreciate it. Wiki members tend to be much nicer than those snarling menaces on the image boards and meme websites, because we subject our work to peer editing and know how to constructively build something from a joint effort instead of cursing out people for bad posts. For the record, I am a first-year college student who chooses to tinker on this guide when he has the spare time. It's my way to perform a stress release. I did the groundwork two years ago, but came back when I discovered I could use VirtualBoyAdvance to capture unlimited screenshots on a ROM file bootleg of the game. I'll be adding them at my best convenience.

Before I go, I need to voice one suggestion I have for the guide. We should make the Enemy Roster like an interactive list. You can click on a picture with the name of the enemy captioned underneath, and the page automatically jumps to their description and lists a few tips about fighting them. It would be very convenient for the reader, who wouldn't need to scroll through a whopping list of 50+ enemies. However, the textile commands to set up what I just requested are unfamiliar to me. If you or someone else is savvy, we're set. If not, I'll look up an example for future reference. Many thanks as always. --Superpowered Mario (talk) 01:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * SM: beware of wiki dreams. They are time sinks, for sure! Focus on the goal of the guide. If you feel like you want to take it to the next level (featured, and beyond), then we can put some time into this. As for the monster listing, my preference is to have enemy lists in tables, sorted by stage. Either with headings or a column(s)(i.e. sortable=1) for the stage. But you gave me a cool idea that we've never implemented. Have the boring headings sections down below, but have a duplicate, non-heading, simple, but large, clickable table of all of the enemies (shrunk down of course if their sprites are large). The duplicate here is in the images, not the content. One really cool feature to add to Mega Man guides is the ad-lib style small sprites embedded into the text. Like, "Go around this corner and then you'll see a Gun Volt Mega Man X Enemy Gun Volt.png." I've started this sort of thing on Mega Man X/Highway Stage. It is also very present in Castlevania Circle of the Moon (which is featured). Another way to break up the enemy info is to get a map on the page, and break the map into sections for the guide (e.g. draw lines on the map to make your own sections). Mega Man X2 is a good example of where this is more useful, since there is a map available on each Maverick stage once the head upgrade is acquired. -- 04:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Mega Man X5 sequel
Yeah, the Mega Man fandom occasionally still sees arguments about whether or not the post-X5 X games are canon. They bring up things like X6's Zero ending, the orbital elevators in the Zero series, the Z3 bosses having transformation abilities, Model A in ZX Advent, etc. It never really goes anywhere, and it's pretty much all just fanon speculation. Not really an official thing. It's not something we as a reference site should be taking a side on. We should be objective. X6 exists and is the official sequel to X5, in the sense that it was produced and released by Capcom. Zero 1 was meant as the start of a new series set after the X series. That's pretty much all we can say objectively about it, claims about the later X games being non-canon are just something fandom speculates about, not something Capcom's ever stated officially. Wanderer (talk) 20:06, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless of what happened behind-the-scenes, Inafune never actually declared any of those games non-canon. He can't, really, the Mega Man franchise is legally owned by Capcom, not him. Inafune does say that Mega Man Zero was intended not as a "sequel", technically, but as the beginning of a new series. Regardless, we shouldn't be reading too much into those statements or making judgements about game canonicity. That's not our place to say. We're supposed to be focused on game mechanics and strategies and stuff, anyway. Wanderer (talk) 19:08, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Our preceded by and followed by links are chronological by release date and have nothing to do with plot. A note can be made on the Mega Man Zero page, about a suspected connection to one of X5's endings. -- 19:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If you can verify whether or not the information is true (and I'm pretty sure what you're talking about is correct, because I remember hearing about that elsewhere,) then it's possibly worth mentioning in the introduction page of the guide. Although it would have to be kept brief, two sentences, three at the most.  Definitely don't dive into a discussion about it, just throw it in there as a bit of trivia.  Try to find a reference if you can, but you don't have to do the whole business.  Pro  cyon  05:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Mega Man X
I've forgotten what this discussion was about. Can you link back to it? -- Prod (talk) 07:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * We try to go by official documentation of names if ever available. The official japanese website for X7 doesn't have a space in the name (check the title of the webpage).  -- Prod (talk) 14:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I left an additional note on the discussion on Prod's talk page. Check it out. -- 19:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * My understanding was that while Mega Man X came to be called X for short, the original intention of the X was to be like a variable. So the X actually indicated some kind of numbering system.  Mega Man x was some game that took place after the main series where n was the last regular Mega Man game, and x = n + 1.  Then Mega Man x2 was the next, and then x3, and so on.  It came after the Mega Man series, but you were never really supposed to know quite when it did because they knew they were going to do more than 6 games.  Although to be consistent, they probably would have had to call the first game Mega Man X1, but I guess that would have been confusing.  Pro  cyon  05:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Ultima IV
I primarily used this website to help me play through the game, but obviously took note of several things I had to discover on my own that weren't very well covered here. I need to go back and get screenshots of some more of the items. I think the site could really use an overworld map and a map of the dungeons. It would take some time, but I could probably get a map of the dungeons put together. Any ideas that might be faster? Preech2671 (talk) 23:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Final Fantasy III and Game Category
wouldn't it be easier to just use the "move" (which is right beside edit and history) instead of copying a page and then create a new page and paste it in? And also please check that you add the proper game category for an image. Ultima 4 and Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar are not the same. Thank you for your work. Paco (talk) 15:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Heh, seems i don't need to explain it anymore *phew*. ^^ I have fixed some of your images 2 days ago. Paco (talk) 19:18, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Grammar

 * about 20x: I saw that it's on other pages but not on this page, so i just applied it on this page as well to make all pages the sames. I didn't think about grammar at all. If it's one chest, two vases, then yes it should be written as words, but what's in the chest should be written as numbers.
 * Notes: well yes, you can tell me what i did was wrong and why. As for "is" and "are" i sometimes forgot that (well, more like i didn't think much while writing). As for "etage" and "floor" i was thinking which word i should take and so i picked etage.
 * Language: German is my motherlanguage, but i don't think it's allowed to talk in other languages on talk-pages, but i may be wrong. You have to ask the older Admins for that. Paco (talk) 11:33, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Sentence complexity
Hi Abacos. I took a look at your recent edits to Final Fantasy/Weapons, and I felt it necessary to ask you to simplify some of your explanations. While nothing you wrote was technically incorrect or inaccurate, I think you're writing at a level that isn't necessarily accessible to all of our readers. The idea isn't to sound the most intelligent, it's to be the most clear, and to remember that your audience is people of all levels of comprehension. Please keep that in mind. Thanks.  Pro cyon  23:09, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Abacos. I have zero problem with the factual content or subject matter of your edits.  I was only objecting to your presentation.  I'll use a specific example:
 * Daggers are weaker than comparable axes or swords, but they are still a good choice for Thieves and Black Mages/Wizards, although the former can use sme swords and the latter spellcasting staves.
 * In that one sentence, you've attempted to communicate around three or four different concepts. For some people, that's fine, they've got enough concentration and comprehension to follow your thought process all the way through to the end, but for others, that's just too much information packed into one sentence.  It's too hard to follow for some people.  Rather than risk only reaching a portion of your audience, you can ensure reaching everyone by keeping the sentences simpler, without watering down your message.  If I personally were to rewrite your sentence, I would say:
 * While daggers are weaker than some weapons, they are good choices for Thieves and Black Mages. As the game progresses, and they get stronger, you'll want to switch to more powerful weapons.
 * The reader can study up about Thieves and Black Wizards specifically to see what weapons to switch to. In the mean time, the two sentences are clear and easy to follow.  Granted a lot of this is subjective, and I'm trying very hard not to inject my own personal bias into this.  It's just that a lot of your writing contains very complex analysis.  That analysis definitely has a home on this site buy it a) should be as accessible as possible and b) should not replace simpler analysis, but rather complement it.
 * In other words, what you write should be as understandable by your dumbest friend as it should be by your smartest friend.  Pro cyon  04:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Ultima 5 completion
Abacos, I know your attention to detail is on par with the rest of us OCD types, so I will take your initial opinion of a completed guide on face value. It looks like you already changed the completion stage on the main page of the guide. Congratulations! Unfortunately, I do not have the time nor expertise to evaluate the guide. However, I quickly scanned the first couple of pages of the walkthrough. The main thing that is lacking are helpful images. Maybe some day you can play through again or use a completed save file to find maps or something. There is almost an infinite number of improvements you can make to a given guide, so it is usually best to 1) pat yourself on the back and feel good about your contributions and successful completion of a difficult goal, 2) wait for readers to evaluate your work (make sure you put all of the pages of that guide on your watch list and check it once in a while), and 3) spend your time on the guides for games that you really like. Maybe you made this guide just because you like the Ultima name and you saw that our guide wasn't completed. Maybe it's your favorite game. It's up to you to allocate your time. For me, I feel like Chrono Trigger and Mega Man X are "my" best guides. I've spent a lot of time evaluating and collaborating on those works and I think about them once in a while and know that some day I may finish the vastly difficult additional features I dream about. Cheers, mate! -- 03:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Of course! Feel free to copy it to your user page. Technically it is more like completion stage 3 due to our image policy, but don't worry about it. I mean, you could argue it the issue, but really it's not a big deal. I'm just glad you finished it! CS4 means it can still be improved a lot. Even featured guides can have more added to them. So, think about going back some day and making it better =) -- 17:02, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

instead of. You can also insert it using the Return-Button. Thank you. Paco (talk) 12:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you also expand Getting Started? It's a Manual to how to play U5, but it's too little info there. Also please use


 * As long as Paco's talking about the Getting Started, I like the "similar games" thing. Way to innovate, dude. ^_^ Congrats on completing your first guide! -- Wario Talk 22:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Ultima III: Exodus
Can you check if File:Ultima III Yew Prayer Temple.png can be added and if not then please mark it for deletion. Paco (talk) 15:37, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Ignorance is fun?
If it's too stressful, then you can leave here and set up your own Wiki-Site where you can teach other peoples your special grammar rules. I don't care. Paco (talk) 22:12, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

You're on thin ice
You are seriously one personality conflict away from a temporary ban on editing. I really don't care how important grammar is to you, if you can't handle yourself appropriately and interact with the administrators of the site in a polite and respectful way, you're not welcome to contribute here. We ask very little of editors: accuracy and respect. You're great with the first, and questionable with the second. And you are an adult. I would understand if you were younger and didn't have the ability to distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate communication. But that's not the case, so you have no excuse. Understand this: if a trend has been set across several guides, such as abbreviating Oracle of Ages as "OoA", it does not matter how much it irks you to see it, you have two choices. You can propose that it be changed in a discussion, or you can ignore and let it be wrong. I don't care which one you choose, but being belligerent to any of the staff on the site is not an option. Please keep this in mind from now on.  Pro cyon  01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Abacos, it's nothing about grammar rules. This site isn't the only place that abbreviates Ocarina of Time as "OoT" or Legend of Zelda as "LoZ"; it is done by gamers everywhere. Why? Because otherwise, the abbreviations would be way too general. I mean really, "OT" could be referring to anything. Do we care if they're grammatically correct? No, because we're not writing an essay. By the way, you shouldn't feel too offended by what Paco said. I'm sure it wasn't his intention to insult you; you were just coming off as a bit rude. I think it annoys us all when you say we don't know our grammar because our schools suck. Back to the issue, it's nice that you're trying to change the site for the better, but I have to disagree on this one. That doesn't mean you should give up on this site's grammar entirely, though... -- Wario Talk 15:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, wait, wait: I never meant to imply that other thing about schools in English-speaking countries! The fact is: English spelling requires long years to be taught and there's less time left to teach grammar, if compared with other languages. It's not a fault, I'm not blaming anyone, it's a characteristic of the English language. I could say schools in my homecountry suck (can I? it's my homecountry), because we're filled with loads of theory and rules, but we're given little or no practical teachings (and that's the reason I moved abroad to get my Master degree). Anyway, I'm ok with abbreviations now, I said I apologize and accept it. And I'll be careful, very careful about correcting grammar from now on. --Abacos (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your response misses the point. This has nothing to do with your opinion of the usage of grammar on the site.  This has everything to do with the way you relate and communicate with other members of the community, particularly the site admins.  Paco, Moydow, and E-123Wario54 have all earned the trust and respect of this site through their contributions and friendliness.  They do a fairly thankless job, for which they deserve a lot more appreciation, and the last thing I want to see is someone give them an especially hard time over something relatively trivial.  With regard to the difference between the two communications, I had considered warning you when you wrote your initial message to Moydow, but you were a bit more reasonable, and Moydow didn't seem offended.  You were much more rude to Paco, and to be quite frank, I agreed with his measured response to you.  The bottom line is, this is a democratic community driven site.  Your contributions are welcome, but your opinion about problems you find on the site counts as one vote, just like mine.  You are free to open a discussion to raise a concern that you have about abbreviations or grammar rules, but you must abide by the majority vote.  If the majority agrees with you, great.  If not, you must abide by that decision.  What you may not do, is harass other members because you don't like something.   Pro  cyon  02:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I understood that, but looking back I saw that my communications problems always involved the use of grammar. That's why I say that I'll take grammar easy from now on, because that was the cause of all. You say grammar is trivial, and indeed the problems always arose because I was the only one that considered it basic instead. I understand my error, I identified the cause of my error, I apologize, I'll behave from now on. --Abacos (talk) 10:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * For mediation purposes and for all of us to understand what is going on, what really was the initial issue? On what page was there something that set you off as to a recurring error of, say, Paco's (as I see from a discussion between you and him, not to single him out)? I am interested in the issue and not the bantering, which I agree is annoying and unncessary.
 * If this is all just regarding abbreviation grammar, then yeah I think it's ridiculous to add all possible abbreviations. Not abbreviating "of" and participles may be grammatically correct, but it is not applicable to the context of these games. Product abbreviations are usually done by either 1) the company or 2) the gamers, who, unfortunately, tend to average about 12 years old. So, unless you enjoy arguing with children, you need to realize that grammar is out the door in this case and pretty much everything is arbitrary. Figuring out the arbitrary-ness in all game cases is the tricky part. We have a lot of trouble finding the correct Japanese to English translations for the same reason. Also, a lot of commerce does not follow grammar rules, such as "FiOS" - the abbreviation for "Fiber OpticS" in the telco industry (which I am part of). Please do not waste your time trying to add these little nuances or you will end up just creating unnecessary content that another person can just as easily justify its non-existence, and none of us appear to be willing to stop them, so know that your efforts in this regard will probably be futile. Oh, and that was a good joke. The English-German EU thing, it basically ended up looking and sounding just like German, ahaha. -- 20:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, it's exactly as you said: nothing important, but I realized its triviality only after a louder and louder choir of "f***-*ff" (metaphorically speaking) that I really deserved. I was just thinking that almost every administrator I know got involved; now there's only one left out. With all these eyes on me, I cannot make another mistake. And I promise I won't.
 * But are players really that young? That makes me feel a bit weird. I've clearly showed to you all how childish I've been, and I've been the last one who realized it. Time to grow up.
 * Thanks Paco and  Pro cyon  for metaphorically spanking me, because I agree now that it was the right thing to do. Thanks, Wario and Notmyhandle for your indulgence and mediation. --Abacos (talk) 23:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Procyon swings the ban hammer, but I'm the pillow that tries to lessen the blow (in some cases). Each of our personalities is an extreme to some extent, and thankfully we balance each other out in the end. Moving on from an issue like this is necessary, otherwise you will quit doing what you're doing because of something so insignificant. It's just not worth the trouble. I ended up in a pickle when I first started here, too. I removed it from my archives, but check it out: here at the bottom. We all have to learn that our actions can be harmful. While I thought that I was being objective and playful, in reality I was being pessimistic, sardonic, and belittling. It's interesting because I carry these traits as a minor part of my personality, and it comes out in my words if I am note careful. You should look at yourself in a similar way. Are you helping or are you just being an elitist prick? Do you have to bite when you teach or can you lend a helping tip without comment? In a way, we must seek to communicate in the manner that we write our guides - bland and brief.


 * Games seem to be targeted at young audiences to get them hooked (not to mention Nintendo's target demographic is clearly like 8-16 years old). As they age only the hard core ones stick with it to an extreme. A lot of casual players will have the most recent system with 1-10 games. I have every console I've ever owned and have like 10-50 games per console. Also, kids are usually pretty poor so it comes down to parenting for who gets to have what. All of the games targeted at adults now are the super casual facebook games. It sucks. I mean, you could argue that "Mature" games are meant for 18+ or something, but they're just a more vulgar clone of some older game (e.g. Gears of War vs. Turok) and thus their content does not reflect gameplay, which is why gamers are playing in the first place. I'm saying that the art and content/story is just for branding/marketing/fan base creation. Plus, when it comes to abbreviations, we usually end up going the route the product typesets it as, so normally you would abbreviate Gears of War as GW or innacurately GoW, but maybe they use GOW. In any case, it doesn't matter, since abbreviations are all ambiguous without context. The only thing we use abbreviations around here for is redirecting pages, and if two games have the same abbreviation then we have to disambiguate it and link to both... -- 18:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Advert. and Transparency
I'm using some Firefox Addon like NoScript or Adblock + so there is no such advertisements when i', surfing StrategyWiki. ^^ I think i have edited almost all such edits. Also for Transparency i'm using Gimp for it. That and PNGGauntlet to make the images smaller without qualityloss. Paco (talk) 15:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)