User talk:Prod

Please add comments at the bottom, much easier to find that way (or just press the '+' at the top of the screen).
 * Archive 1 - October 16, 2006
 * Archive 2 - December 19, 2006
 * Archive 3 - January 20, 2007
 * Archive 4 - February 7, 2007
 * Archive 5 - April 13, 2007
 * Archive 6 - June 29, 2007

Dominions 3
Good to be back! I've removed that bad page from the Table of Contents. I forgot they were a subnation of Man, so they don't need their own page. --Morkilus 00:38, 15 October 2007 (CDT)

Maplestory Pictures
Hey, do you know how to import pictures into the pages? Don't worry, its just screenshots of the actual game on my account, not copywrited from others. --Narutofanz 00:11, 4 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Replied on User talk:Narutofanz. -- 00:26, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Pokemon Mystery Dungeon/Walkthrough
I see. Great example ^_^ BTW, the page length for Pokemon Mystery dungeon isn't the problem; the problem is the fact that it's a separate strategy for a section, putting it out of context. Myth (talk)

Super Powers
We really need a guide page for this, but like, how do I ban? --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 01:31, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

Uploading images
Every time I upload the image it says the Source Filename's wrong. But I copied it every way it appears. Know what's wrong? Myth (talk) 12:50, 2 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Never mind. I browsed the image and got it uploaded. Thanks! --Myth (talk) 13:04, 2 July 2007 (CDT)13:03, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Pac-Man Fever
Hi Prod. I was going to make a page for the PMF category just to explain what it was. I realize it's a little out of scope. What did you have in mind for a template? (I'm also trying to contact you on AIM at this very moment.) Procyon (Talk) 21:44, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Final Fantasy X
I've been playing this game again, and I wanted to contribute to the guide of it here, but the bits of the guide that already exist aren't that good, in my opinion. I was just wondering if I should go ahead and rewrite large parts of it, since there are spoilers that shouldn't really be in there, and there's a lot of stuff elsewhere in the guide that's either wrong or in the wrong place. I've asked Kyron (I think that's his username) if I could but I haven't got a response from him, so I was just asking. --MutantJones 3 June, 2007 17:39

Release dates
Since there's a sort of half-consensus on the new release date stuff, do you think we should go ahead and start implementing it? --DrBob (Talk) 07:39, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

IRC
How do I join #strategywiki?--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:14, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Am I in, I think I joined it.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:17, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * How do I register my PWord, I don't want to type anything unless that becomes my Pword.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:23, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Gauntlet Dark Legacy
Sorry, it was wrong on wikipedia.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 00:52, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

StarCraft units
Hey Prod, do you think it's a better idea to do something like the top of this or to just slap on expansion units to the original units page and say "Brood War only"? I'd prefer to do the latter, but since the main game and expansion are two different articles, maybe Brood War should have the new units page. Thanks! Baejung92 13:40, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Advertising Agency?
Wait what? I thought we were just writing guides. Like, we have a guide for Peasant's Quest. Why is that any more of a game than O!D!J?

I dunno, I think if it's a worthwhile, quality game, there shouldn't be any reason we shouldn't allow it. I say that if it's a game not blam worthy, we should give it a chance.

I'm not going to take any action towards ODJ or many other games, but I mean, I created Heli Attack 3 a while back and now I'm worried that it's going to be deleted or something. Cmon!

Oh well. I'm level 11 now w00t! --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 23:03, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Yoshi 64 help!
I need help getting rid of the mistake at the bottom of this Chart. Can someone fix it and hand it back to me, please.--Yoshi 64 15:07, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm removing the actual table, please just link to the page instead of pasting all the wikicode. Check the history on this page for a fix by Ryan. -- Prod (Talk) 17:34, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

Thanks
Thankyou for your bit on the Military Madness/Passwords. As like all wikis strategy wiki survives on teamwork and you helped improved the page as compared to the original page that i started Richardson j 18:15, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Vandalized
There's a vandal on the loose (your "What I Do" table's a victim). I know one of you sysops will kick him out eventually, but is there something a normal contributor like myself should do in these cases? Baejung92 20:11, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Try not to give anyone any ideas xD --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 23:09, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
 * What about instead of going on a deletion rampage the moment you get sysopness, wait to get bureaucrat status, learn the database password, THEN go on a deletion rampage and proceed to use Special:Lockdb to prevent anyone from reverting it. Of course, do the Main Page last, as it is the one with highest visibility. -- 08:34, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

IRC
Could you get on IRC please? I would like to talk to you about some stuff. --DrBob (Talk) 17:26, 8 August 2007 (CDT)

Resetting CSS
I'm using a custom CSS so the table headers (!) are blue; but after seeing the system browser look like shit, I'm inclined to revert to default settings. First of all, what is the file I need to edit? User:Notmyhandle/bluecloud.css ?? (From preview, that looks like a no.) Secondly, there's probably a history on that page so I'll be able to revert easily... so I won't ask how unless I run into a brick wall. -- 12:54, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

FFVI Chapters
I don't think the game is seperated into chapters at all in the first place. It seems to me to be fairly arbitrary based on good turning points in the game... I'd say do what you think is right.-- Duke Ruckley  21:36, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

Series categories
I can't remember such a consensus, and I think it makes more sense to just categorise by the game's actual series, then make sure the series is visible. You might want to bring it up in CI if you're sure there was some sort of discussion about it before. -- 04:00, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Half-Life
Alright, I added some intro text to the pages, similar to Link to the Past and Pokémon RBY. I think it looks better, but I think I'll change the title from the first header on the Anomalous Materials page. --Antaios 21:42, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

Category:Pokémon GSC maps
Why'd you flag this for renaming? What's wrong with the name as is? -- DrGaellon (talk | contribs) 09:14, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

Thank you
Thanks Prod. That's what I get for editing late at night :P Procyon (Talk) 10:39, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

"Extra things I added"
I'm guessing you were referring to the #nav_right div.desc a.new { background-color: transparent; } and the #nav_right div.desc a.new:hover { background-color: transparent; }. That was a bug fix for the article tags (such as wip). The redlinks in the box that appears when you hover over the tag had the same red background as the red discussion link, and hovering over said redlinks made the background redder. Those two lines of code were to prevent that from happening. -- 15:22, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Auto Prod Bot
Being the overly resourceful person I am, the shortcut to AWB on User:Auto Prod Bot has never existed. The correct shorcuts are WP:AWB and WP:AUTOWB. Have a good day :) --Charitwo 10:34, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Can you please delete my user talk page and start it over with your bots comment, it's already been tarnished twice in one week, not a good start! :( -- 18:55, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Page Titles
I have basically finished the walkthroughs, renamed the missions and am getting ready to do cleanup from when I first started, as I feel I have a bit more of a basic 'format' feel of things now.

I have one idea about naming the missions, and wanted your opinion. When I am working on things, I see the mission titles like "Blue Angel" and I have to make extra efforts to remind myself what mission it is, China, USA, GLA and then what number the mission is. I know I can default to the Table of Contents, but just looking at the page I feel lost.

What do you think of this page-naming concept...do you think it is too much information???

CHI-1 The Dragon Reborn  or China 1. The Dragon Reborn USA-1 Blue Angel GLA-3 Flood of Chaos or at least: 1. The Dragon Reborn 2. Chaos Factor

thanks...Karlcsr 18:26, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Baby-steps of learning this html. What is the function of ??? Sometimes it seems to create a new line and other times it doesn't. hmmmm Karlcsr 00:23, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

ThanksKarlcsr 00:20, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

StarCraft
That looks awesome, thanks! I might discover something problematic later on, but as of now I can't see anything that would be. Would the Alternate Strategy section from some missions be added in the same way as it is now? Baejung92 16:58, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * By the way, there's a typo, it should read "Difficulty" not "Difficult". Baejung92 17:45, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * StarCraft/Terran mission 10: The Hammer Falls has two alternate strategies down at the bottom, with small headings describing what they're about (no, the headings aren't necessary, I just put them in there for the heck of it).
 * OK there's a problem. There are pages that have Special Structures (StarCraft/Terran mission 2: Backwater Station), and the template has no room for that. Baejung92 12:24, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * About screenshots... I pressed Print Screen, opened Paint, and tried both Ctrl+V and the Paste button from the toolbar, but it doesn't work. Also, when I pressed the button a message popped up saying that the file was saved as a .pcx file once again. Am I doing something wrong? Baejung92 16:56, 22 September 2007 (CDT)

China page
I'm not sure what to do with this, up to this point each area on the World Tour corresponded to one version. Now there are two Chinese options, and that sort of messes up the way we've been ordering it. Right now, it seems to be sorted by version. We could also split it by continent, but the possibility exists that these two separate areas may in the future be linked by a rumored "5th chinese town" to make a walking path and show that it is in fact 1 continent.

I guess right now what I want to do is split it so that it's by continent. That would give 6 options there, but the page titles would need to change and that requires a move. the TOC would say "Zipangu" Instead of Japan, "Formosa" instead of Taiwan, "Dong Fang Shen Zhou" and "Shaolin Monastery" instead of China, "Siam" instead of Thailand, and Singapore would remain the same. The only problem with this is that it messes up all the links... So what should we do about this?--IsaacGS 00:35, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * So just split the China page into two? That sounds like the best option, and it has the least effect on existing links. It's just that a lot of people were getting confused by the way it is, thinking there was like 5 towns released at once.--IsaacGS 22:51, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

Spell Check
The reason I changed the hyphens was because I seem to remember DrBob wanting that to be the standard. I also thought it would look a little better. As for different spellings, that was totally unconscious. Sometimes I find myself changing them without realizing it. I have a tendency to just breeze through these things. I'll make a stronger effort not to change those. I don't have anything against those spellings really.-- Duke Ruckley Talk 09:27, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I should look more closely at the box of symbols below. I never really noticed it had those dashes.  Thanks for pointing that out.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 09:43, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

Adminstrative Help
Alright, I've become a bureaucrat on another Wiki not long ago, and I'm curious about bots and how exactly they work. Any help is greatly appreciated. Cheers. Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 18:00, 25 September 2007 (CDT)

Stubbing Walkthrough Page
I am not sure of the philosophy you are employing for the Walkthrough Pages.

As an initial user, I personally would bypass the TOC and go directly to the Walkthrough link if that is what I am interested in. When I get there, instead of seeing a list of Walkthrough Categories, I see a stub and I would think, Oh, there is no walkthrough for this yet. I set up what I thought was a nice TOC under walkthrough and you deleted it. Like I say, I am not sure what the reason for this is.

As a rookie user, I am telling you what I would do -- go DIRECT to walkthrough and NOT to the TOC...and when I see a blank page there, I am going to leave the site. Any thoughts??? Thanks....Karlcsr 16:47, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

Additional comment: If there is not going to be any direction under Walkthrough, why not just delete the category altogether????

Zero Hour TOC issues
Prod,

Thanks for all your help, but now the C&C Zero Hour TOC page is totally messed up.

NONE of those missions are ZERO HOUR! NONE! Now there is no link to the Zero Hour Missions I have done, but links to ALL the missions THAT ARE NOT Zero Hour.... Can we change this back????? Karlcsr 16:55, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

I am working double shift, so maybe my thinking is blurry. At the very least, when one goes to the Zero Hour TOC, the info at the top should have the subheading Command & Conquer: Generals to give someone a clue this is NOT Zero Hour. I have been working on this incessantly for a month and I saw the walkthroughs and figured "That's it." Period. It would never enter my mind a Zero Hour TOC would have C&C Generals at the top of it, but that's just me.

I mean, I am not a genius, but I am a freaking college graduate and I thought the missions were not there. It only makes sense others will think the same way.

I guarantee if a 1000 people enter this site, some of them are going to go to Zero Hour TOC, click on USA Mission 1 (under Generals) and they are going to say, what the heck???

I have gone to Gamesfaq and the idiots there post C&CGenerals walkthroughs under the Zero Hour site. When I read that, I leave the walkthrough and don't go back. They are going to assume we don't know the difference between the two and leave in disgust.

You don't need to answer again if you don't want, but I still don't get the purpose of a "walkthrough" page if it's a deadend and you have to go backwards to find the walkthroughs. I am just sincerely telling you that when I first went to this site, if nothing was under Walkthrough, I assumed it's not there. When I go to walkthrough, I can't find the walkthroughs. Or they are "forced" to click on Mission 1...follow it to Mission 2...follow it to Mission 3...ad nauseum, when if there is a sub-TOC under Walkthroughs, you will save them lots of time and energy.

People take the path of least resistance. They don't want the TOC of the bestiaries, unit descriptions etc. They are not here to browse. They cut to the chase...period... they go to the Walkthrough tab...period....and it's a deadend. They figure since this Wiki is not complete...it's not there...and leave...

All that being said, I appreciate all of your hard work, but I am working hard on it too...this is my hobby now...

But think seriously why it MUST be more confusing just "because" that's the way it's always been. This is a young site. Let's make it user friendly. Karlcsr 18:21, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

PS: My teenage son, who has never agreed with me on anything in the past year, agrees with me completely. He naturally went to Command & Conquer Zero Hour, saw the Walkthrough link near the bottom of the visible page...clicked it...saw nothing...and assumed nothing is there. Trust me, this is a significant moment in history that we agreed on something.Karlcsr 18:33, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

Prod, thanks for the interaction last night...I still have a few thoughts on the issue, but I am going to drop it for at least a week. I think perhaps the issue is redundancy vs. clarity? Oops...I just said something...maybe later on down the road, I will revisit the issue and see what we all think...Karlcsr 08:03, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Prod, I broke my word. I am back. People are getting lost. I bought my friend the game and he went to the site. He said he went to "Walkthrough" just saw the China link, thought, well, I don't need China, (he was on USA) and clicked on some other link that wound up asking him to buy a game or strategy guide and figured, that must be the wrong site and never went back. This is what I am talking about.

Too much redundancy can be bad -- but in certain instances it can be good. The Walkthrough Page needs to have a healthy size index to it...I am convinced. I am not going to change anything right now, because I don't want to get into a back and forth thing, but in this particular instance, redundancy will be healthy and helpful.

I will try to be brief, but I feel this is a very important issue.

Example: When someone wants a screwdriver at Home Depot and they see two signs that say STORE DIRECTORY and SCREWDRIVER, the Store Directory doesn't even enter their consciousness. It may seem absurd but it is a great analogy. They go directly to the screwdrivers. But then when they get to the screwdrivers, they get lost because there is no direction given as to the 50 variety of screwdrivers at that location, they give up and leave. What would prevent them leaving the stores is finding a nice directory of the 50 brands of screwdrivers right where the screwdrivers are located. It may seem silly, but they don't think to go back to the front of the store and look at the store directory.

So in the future, I hope to have a better index on the actual walkthrough page because at least 50% of the people when seeing two signs, they are going to pick the sign that refers to EXACTLY what they want and not even think about the other one.

Peace...I know I am getting a bit apopletic on this...thanks for tolerating my rants. I know you donate a lot of your time here and my feelings on this issue don't take away from the fact I appreciate all of your other work on the site. Karlcsr 11:33, 27 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Prod, happy to answer your questions. He went to the Zero Hour site, which has now been changed to have three links to the three different missions of China, USA and GLA.


 * As far as story line, it is very "light." It is possible to start with China or USA or GLA.  Those are three choices you have.


 * Three links are better than none, but I still feel some folks will never see the TOC link once they hone in on "Walkthrough," because that is why they are there -- people have tunnel vision, just like I said in my previous example.

Prod, in re your comment about not duplicating large portions of the TOC page.

That is what you have got to decide. Is a link to each individual mission a large portion? I don't think so. Hopefully, I can eventually influence your opinion on this matter.

This was "the" topic of lunch today among a group of professional people. I mean, it is somewhat "unique" that a TOC on a gaming web site is such a focus of attention, but it was. It is an issue of communication -- they issue whole darn college degrees on this subject!!

They all think I am right on the mark. They are rooting for me...they are cheering me on that hopefully I can make this site more user friendly.

If you want a walkthrough, you click on walkthrough and no one, not a single person on this planet will be distressed by the fact this is "redundant" of some hypothetical page (TOC) they are not even thinking about. They will be thankful, grateful and/or nonchalantly go exactly where they want to go.

Before we all set a Maginot line, and if you still think I am way off base, can you ask around to what others think?

REDUNDANCY IS NOT ALWAYS BAD!!!!!! At lunch, at least one comment was made exactly to this point -- that on web sites they LIKE redundancy so they don't get lost.

At lunch, they kept emphasizing like in public speaking, the point of emphasis is repeated at the beginning, middle and end. It can be a good thing!!

Okay. Boy, I know how to go on and on. If this is set in stone and there will never, ever under any circumstances be these links, just tell me, and I will learn to accept what I cannot change. You have intimated this may be the case, but you may need to more directly tell me.


 * I need to get a life. It's like when I was yelling and screaming and cursing on the phone last week to the other side of the world about management issues, and when it was finally resolved, it's like:  I don't care.  That's not the point.  Now the point my blood pressure is just high.

Peace, Prod...let's just agree to disagree.


 * Oops...I forgot to sign...I really feel it would be best just to ENTIRELY DELETE the WALKTHROUGH tab. There is no reason to go there under the current scenario.  FORCE them to go to TOC so people don't get lost and they see all the info available.Karlcsr 15:10, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Peace and again thanks for listening to my rants. Karlcsr 13:07, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Arcade Buttons
Actually, they really are Arcade Buttons (as well as NeoGeo Buttons too), since they where used in the Arcades as well as with the NeoGeo home console. The problem is, the way that cade is set up right now, it requires that the filename begins with arcade. So far those buttons where only called NeoGeo-A.png, when they really should be called Arcade-NeoGeo-A.png. Maybe I overlooked something, but I couldn't find a way to change the name of the pictures and of all files that direct to it, so I just uploaded those pictures again with the new name. If I find sometime tonight or tommorow I can change all the links from NeoGeo-A.png to Arcade-NeoGeo-A.png (since they are only used in my own movelists anyway), so that the wrong-named files can be deleted. If that's not OK drop me a line.... --Bmuig 07:59, 28 September 2007 (CDT)(Talk)


 * I just reread your post and one more thing came up: I can't use the allready established buttons, since they are all designed toward a Street Fighter 2 like control sheme (3 Kick Buttons and 3 Punch Buttons). Those NeoGeo arcade titles all work quite different, since they all (and there are tons of NeoGeo Arcade titles) work with those ABCD Button sheme. And to make one more thing clear: those NeoGeo buttons allready where in the Arcade Buttons category, it was just that nobody has used them so far.... --Bmuig 08:10, 28 September 2007 (CDT)(Talk)


 * I couldn't sleep. I'm back on IRC.  Procyon (Talk) 23:25, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

>:o
Warning: This page has been deleted after you started editing! -- 01:21, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

I need a second set of eyes.
Well in Category:Wii Virtual Console theres a faulty link for Military Madness and as you can see the article is there but in the catogory page it's in red link but i failed to find anything wrong. I'm asking you if you could check it out as a second set of eyes might find the fault that i failed to find. Richardson j 18:38, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks i should have spotted it as it would be obvious but thanks anyway Richardson j 08:10, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

Dangerous Seed
If you really want to, you can split the page Dangerous Seed/Elements into two separate pages, Dangerous Seed/Stages 1-4 and Dangerous Seed/Stages 5-8, even though I haven't done Stages 6, 7 and 8 yet. Namcorules 04:08, 4 October 2007 (CDT)

World Heroes
Hi

once again, very nice work :) ... I've updated the World Heroes stuff to use cade, so that should all work out fine now. Just one thought: I think it's rather strange to have links to the individual character pages (with the movelists) and then have other links to the seperated game-specific character pages for each character and each game, too. I understand that you try to provide a link to edit those templates, but I still think its pretty confusing (and redundant). --Bmuig 18:20, 5 October 2007 (CDT)(Talk)

Nautilus
It's Nautilus. Apparently someone else created the page after I made the correct one and did the link in the ToC wrong. I'll fix it.--IsaacGS 19:34, 5 October 2007 (CDT)

Reply to the 'Audition walkthrough' content removal
I feel that its too wordy and pictures should be added.--Xiaozhu 2007 07:08, 6 October 2007 (CDT)


 * I copied it from wikipedia. I will create a better one myself soon.--Xiaozhu 2007 21:15, 10 October 2007 (CDT)

|game parameter
Hey Prod, why should we use |game in ToC instead of just ? I can't see any reason why on the main page of a guide, the |game would be any different to. Whatever is decided should be applied to both ToC and Continue Nav. -- 01:01, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

Re: Gothic II Gold Edition
Because it's the "full" edition of a single game, rather than a compilation of unrelated games (e.g. Sega Genesis Collection); additionally, the Gothic II ToC includes (well, will include) Night of the Raven information as well. GarrettTalk 20:56, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

Why is this picture...
Messing up? look at it: it renders as tiny, but it's actually supposed to be 40 something pixels square. why is this happening?--IsaacGS 11:31, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Now it looks normal size to me, too. O_O yesterday it was tiny, I asked several people and they all also saw it. weird..--IsaacGS 23:49, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

X-COM: Apocalypse and Box Artwork section placement
Hey Prod, I placed the Box Artwork below the ToC because that's what we decided [http://strategywiki.org/wiki/StrategyWiki_talk:Community_Portal/2007/June#Front_page_placement_of_Continue_Nav_and_TOC_revisited. back in June]. Now, if Box Art is an exception, perhaps we should have a discussion in the Community Issues? I've seen it as a plain gallery after story at times, but as a section it should go below ToC ("other information"). What'dya think? I dunno, did you even move it? Was that my fault? AHHHH *gets off SW.* -- 01:36, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

Page Recovery
I have submitted some cheats here: http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Counter_Strike and the page lost (I now the reason). Is it possible to recover it?

Image deletion
I just protected those two because the same person uploaded it with identical file names 3 times in a row. It worked for the first one so I decided to use the same tactic the second time. The person in question is User:MSEA, if you're wondering (who seems to be straddling a temporary block.)--IsaacGS 16:17, 15 October 2007 (CDT)

Nick
Hi. We sound very similar. Do you think I should change my nick to avoid confusion? --Proto 12:50, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Can't make it on tonight
Hey Prod. My cable modem is out :( I'm sending this on my wife's iPhone :P  I probably won't make it back on until tomorrow.  Sorry man.  Procyon (Talk) 20:22, 17 October 2007 (CDT)


 * Cable modem's back :P Procyon (Talk) 22:06, 17 October 2007 (CDT)