Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl

Interested Editors
These editors have expressed interest in working on the SSBB guide. If you are looking for extra input, suggestions, ideas, or help on anything regarding this guide, feel free to contact them on their talk page. Also, add/remove your name to this list as you please:
 * Cgsguy2 - talk
 * Dan - talk
 * Fierce deity link - talk
 * HaloSonic - talk
 * Johnnyauau2000 - talk
 * Mason11987 - talk
 * Myth - talk
 * Notmyhandle - talk
 * Prod - talk
 * Ryan Schmidt - talk
 * SFOXMASTERX - talk
 * Some_Guy_Named_Moe - talk
 * Spruce58052 - talk
 * echelontalk (I can get screenshots, at least.)

Bowser Jr., Ridley and Link from Windwaker confirmed for SSBB.
Many pages say that Masahiro Sakurai told in a Japanese radio show that Bowser Jr., Ridley and Cel-Shaded Link were going to appear in SSBB. He also said that the Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch and Young Link won't appear in SSBB. Please tell me if that's true. User:Fierce deity link - talk
 * Probably false, started off as a rumour in a french forum (I think). Zelda is definitely in the game though .--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 03:06, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't add anything until it's been confirmed by the developers.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 03:06, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Continue Nav
I moved the continue nav to below all the information about the game because it didn't make sense breaking it all up. What do you guys think about just deleting it altogether? Now that its really close to the ToC it doesn't seem to make sense to be there. It can't go back in between paragraphs because it really disrupts things there.-- Duke Ruckley  16:52, 16 August 2007 (CDT)

Confirmed Peach?
I haven't seen any confirmation that Peach is in the game. She isn't listed on the SSBB update pages. Could someone point me to the confirmation notice? Cgsguy2 16:59, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Never mind, I saw her in the Subspace Emissary section. Sorry! Cgsguy2 17:03, 16 August 2007 (CDT)

Bosses
Should a Bosses page be put in? Petey Piranha and Ancient Minister have been comfirmed? --Pika Pika 21:30, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Be Bold Just add a link to the Table of Contents and create it.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 04:50, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I think the modes page should be created, which would describe adventure mode (Subspace Emissary). Subtitles under adventure mode could included bosses.  At least until there are too many to list on one page.-- Duke  Ruckley  06:06, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Final Smash Attacks
Should we make a Final Smash Attacks page??? Because the items' page will look really big, especially if there are going to be 46 characters as they say. --Fierce deity link
 * Yeah go ahead, we can have a small section on the item page about the Smash Ball and then link with details to the Final Smash page. -- 20:07, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, thanks. But one more question, how do I do the page??? --Fierce deity link
 * "Do" it? 1) Create the page.  You can either link to the page like any other link (it will be red, then go to it and click "create this page"), search for it (then click create this page) or type the name into the url (substitute the current page name for the page you want to create).  2) Fill in the info you need.  There are template buttons for a reason (those big things that say main page, guide, company, and table of contents; just click it to fill in the header and footer nav info you need).  Otherwise just look at another page for how its set up.  Then enter the content you want (copy the info from the items page, paste it, then remove the info from the items page).  Anything else?  I'm not going to create the page for you so you can get some practice in.  -- 01:00, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Unconfirmed Information
There have been a couple of edits that added unconfirmed information to some of the pages. I have reverted them in lieu of some kind of confirmation. I'm using the Smash Bros. Dojo as my source of information. As far as I know, that's the only official source. Cgsguy2 09:01, 7 October 2007 (CDT)
 * I've putted some info based on images and videos in Smash Bros. Dojo, hope you don't mind. Fierce deity link 18:55, 8 October 2007
 * Cgsguy2, can you give us the URL of the history differences of what you removed (so we don't have to look at every single page's history ourselves)... Thanks. -- 21:15, 8 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Sure. Here's the Kirby Move List page I changed: , and here's the Fox Move List I changed: .  I've since seen the "FireFox" move in a video while looking for confirmation (and DukeRuckley has reverted it back), but I haven't seen anything for Kirby yet.
 * Fierce Diety Link, when you placed Kirby's moves, were you referring to two of the pictures on Kirby's character page on SmashDojo, or have you heard it elsewhere too? --Cgsguy2 21:36, 8 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Fire Fox can be seen in the video on this page: http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/info/info01.html -- 22:53, 8 October 2007 (CDT)
 * For the Kirby moves, I saw them in Kirby's character page in Smash Dojo. The Fox Illusion from the new video. Fierce deity link 20:29, 12 October 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, I saw it there too after looking around for a while. Sorry about deleting those.  --Cgsguy2 21:53, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

ToC Question
I've noticed this on other guides too, but for titles in the ToC that span multiple columns, we've been centering them. I'm on a widescreen computer, which might be part of the reason, but centering these titles (see "Characters") just doesn't look good. Because the bulleted lists aren't centered, the title tends to hover over the rightmost column, leaving empty space above the left column. This empty space looks, to me, unprofessional and confusing. I think that we should left-align these titles because it looks nicer and flows better. Any thoughts? Should I bring this up in CI as a policy change?-- Duke Ruckley Talk 12:23, 11 March 2008 (CDT)


 * I agree with you Duke. I think it's on a case by case basis (i.e. there is no set policy) so I would suggest just sliding it over to the left, which is in fact what I am going to do.  Procyon (Talk) 12:40, 11 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Well now it looks the same, but over the left side, so you didn't fix it - you just moved it. I suggest we make it into two columns, where the characters header is centered within 75% of the width of the the two columns (the other 25% is about the width of the white space on the right, which is unnecessary to have it centered above).  -- 22:36, 11 March 2008 (CDT)
 * The reason it looks better on the left is because it is consistent with the left-aligned columns. I'm afraid of just playing around with the percentages because of different computer resolutions.  You can try it, but I don't know how it'll look on every computer.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 13:06, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Completion Level
I think that there are a lot of pages on this game, and even though there are still some imcomplete areas, maybe the article should be changed to completion level 2? --Giantbeverage 15:15, 1 April 2008 (CDT)


 * Completion stages 2-4 focus on the walkthrough, so since we've started it, I'll change it to level 2. -- 01:25, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

I was wondering about that. I have a simple question. Does anyone own a game guide because I'm still waiting for my game in Australia to come out and I haven't play that game yet? It will help make this guide more easier to get through. Johnnyauau2000 23:43, 23 June 2008 (CDT)

Character statistics
A few character pages have a statistics section (i.e. Game & Watch). Where is information coming from? If it is personal opinion, then it doesn't necessarily belong unless it is generally agreed upon.-- Duke Ruckley Talk 09:50, 22 August 2008 (CDT)


 * They appear to have originally been edited into Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Character strategies by Pizzaboy22, then moved into each individual character's page by DrBob.
 * I've looked through some of the character pages, and personally believe these stats are... well... rubbish. What info is given only seems like it reflects one perspective.  Case in point:
 * Offense - Damage? Knockback? Attack start/duration/lag? Range? Combos?
 * Defense - Weight? Overall move safety? Size? Recovery? Edgeguarding?
 * Speed - Dash speed? Slide speed? Rolling Speed? Falling speed? Horizontal air movement speed? Rising speed? Attack start/duration/lag?
 * Projectile - Platuna's Arrow vs. Missile and Charge Shot
 * Final Smash - Finals depend far too much on the situation/opponent(s) to be universally rated
 * Overall - Even if you're going by tiers, this seems mostly based on opinion and situation. Obviously, characters like Ike would be better in a timed FFA, while Kirby would be better in a one-on-one stock.
 * But admittedly, weight and throwing ability can be measured quite easily (Although there are four throws, and the stats don't mention if Throwing Ability based on an average or just the best throw, the damage or the knockback, or whatever). If we're going to rate each character's "stats", it should be more organized, and based on facts (many of which can be found or linked to on practically any competitive Brawling fansite). The current ones should probably be deleted. --DekuGuy 18:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Not probably, they should! First we should remove them all, and replace them with something worthwhile. If you want to put the time into measuring throwing ability, you can start a game, throw an enemy and then quit the game and check the flight distance (for that one particular statistic). Even better than having individual character stats (which don't really mean anything when you look at them) is to have a separate page to compile group stats in table format; which can be autosorted and such for much better comparison and analysis. -- 21:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd imagine throwing Ganondorf or Bowser is not the same as throwing Olimar or Pikachu... The best thing to do is give a description of each character without any statistics (unless we can find official statistics).  For example, say "Pikachu's strongest throw is his back throw.  It's one of the better throws in the game."  Now we have opinion again, but that is easily contested and a consensus can be reached on the talk page.  There are no baseless statistics to complicate things.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 11:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point. I think the best thing in this case is, like you said, just better describe each move: give the amount of damage each move deals, whether or not it has knockback, how far enemies fly (in relation to the character's other moves), cool down time after the attack, what moves combo well with the move in question, etc. -- 20:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That sounds perfect and also a challenge! If I have time, I'll enter training mode and try coming up with some basic "damage assessment" for some of the characters.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 17:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure flight distance is the greatest measurement for knockback, unless... maybe if you get the foe up to 60% or higher before measuring the attack.
 * Kirby's Fthrow (8%) against Mario at 0% is 11ft, and at 100% is 54ft.
 * Kirby's Uthrow (10%) against Mario at 0% is 22ft, and at 100% is 64ft.
 * Knockback is calculated after damage, so more damaging attacks would be falsely represented as stronger against less-damaging attacks, especially from 0%. (Falling speed determines the base flight, which is unaffected by damage.  Weight determines the exponential flight, which is only affected by damage.  Since they're two different factors, accurately measuring knockback of individual moves seems impossible unless you hack into the game.)
 * You can see how this would distort flight distance representation, especially when comparing moves with much larger damage and knockback differences. But to get a foe to higher damages without affecting flight distance, so the visible difference is lightened, I think the only options are grab-hits and Fox's blaster.  Each of those takes a tremendous amount of time, especially when piled with stale move depreciation.


 * If you're looking for pure damage values, this guide is amazing. I measured all of Kirby's, and some of Meta's attacks, then compared them to this.  All of Xen0nex's values were right, and he actually had ranges I didn't find until I re-tested. --DekuGuy 20:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah that guide does a good job, and he also notes that not all of the values are integers, which makes things a little more difficult. But, this data (if accurate) should be added to our current character pages. Again, I think a stats comparison page is necessary as well. Throwing distance is logarithmic and logical (the more damage, the farther you'll throw and the game maxes out acceleration eventually); it's not important, but if someone really wanted to collect all the data on it, useful throwing information could be compiled (as you've shown). Difficulty of compiling the content has nothing to do with whether or not it should exist. I have one question: does the game calculate knockback based off the current % of a character, or what their % is after being thrown or hit? -- 21:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * When I said, "Knockback is calculated after damage," I was implying, "knockback bases of a character's previous damage plus the current attack's damage". Otherwise, all attacks would have the same knockback at 0%.  So... I suppose if you knew an attack's damage would deal 20%, then dished out an exact number of grab-hits to get 40% before the attack, you could probably get a halfway-decent flight distance for the attack (with the standard of launching at 60%).  Or at least, that's what I'm guessing.  If the standard was much higher, you'll probably be getting too many KOs... But I'm assuming KOs cut off flight distance values, and I could be wrong.


 * By the way: Although Mario's cape doesn't technically launch an opponent, it still registers flight distance, unfortunately. (Now that I think about it, Fox's Blaster might do the same, as I haven't tested that...) --DekuGuy 22:52, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Right right. Yeah it seems like there are many "hidden" elements of the game's calculations (which is normal to me). What do you think the statistical comparison page should be called? Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Stastical comparison?? -- 23:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Just capitalize Comparison, I guess. So what all is going in the page, just attack strength/knockback, or things like weight, jumping, and movement speeds as well?


 * If someone had the patience for it, they could also measure start-up/duration/after-lag for individual attacks in 1/4 training time and using a stopwatch. Super-fast moves can be hard to time, and you might not always get pinpoint accuracy because it isn't always easy to tell just which part incorporates duration, or when exactly the move ends, but I've seen this method used to compare the speed of different attacks.  --DekuGuy 23:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well to stay with the grammatical standard of SW (sentence capitalization), "comparison" should not be capitalized. Everything you can think of. -- 04:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Measuring Flight Distance
I finally got around to testing the flight distance measurement theory: Entering a normal Brawl, beating a controlled Mario with grab-hits until 50% (give or take 1% in decimals), then hitting Mario with an attack. Finally, after he lands, no-contesting and seeing his total flight distance. (In retrospect, since damage is always dealt before the attack, the "global knockback" variable would generally be closer when measuring from 50% (as opposed to measuring a 14%-damage attack from 36%)). This method seems to give fairly accurate distance values, but:
 * Flight distance only seems to measure hitstun--If the character is KO'd before hitsun wears off, the flight distance will be lesser than it should be. From center stage on FiDe, I KO'd Mario at 100% with an Kirby's c-stick Fsmash and fully-charged Fsmash; the results were both 120-125ft every time.  I then did the same with Mario at 50%, at a damage where he wouldn't be KO'd; c-stick was 66ft and charged was 109ft.
 * Fall distance does not affect flight distance. So if Mario was launched off the edge and fell straight down with no hitstun, the flight distance would be the same as if he landed on the stage.
 * In attacks with multiple hits, ALL hits that strike have flight distance measured, even if the last strike is the only one that sends them flying. So to get true values for these attacks, only the last hit should make contact. With some attacks (like drill kicks or some AAAs), this is... rather difficult, and may be impossible with some moves (Toon Link's Bombs and Spin Attack come to mind).
 * Throws with multiple hits before launch (Kirby's Dthrow) seem to give true values of distance. Throws with multiple hits after launch (Falco's Bthrow) add the throw and the after-hits, so distance is distorted beyond what it should be.
 * Fox's Blaster doesn't register distance, and seems to be the fastest way to bring a character up to 50% without registering flight distance.
 * Because damage is displayed as an integer, though "true damage" is a decimal, distance from the same attack performed twice may vary by a few feet, even if both times Mario's damage the same.
 * Some attacks give different damage at different areas of the same attack (like Kirby's Utilt), but surprisingly often, the knockback is the same in all areas. So far I've found the same attack only gives different knockback if it can launch in different directions, if the attack has multiple hits, or if the attack is a sexkick.
 * Ftilts and Fsmashes that can be tilted up or down (like Kirby's), always seem to have different knockback for forward, down-forward and up-forward tilts.
 * I have yet to test if teching or crashing into walls cuts off flight distance. If not, they would be vital techniques to measure attacks capable of KOing Mario from extremely low damage (like Ike's Eruption or Ganondorf's Warlock Punch).

If anyone wants to measure flight distance, use the standard of attacking Mario at 50%, for uniformity's sake. I've already covered most of Fox and Kirby, but I'm trying to get the values of their multiple-hit attacks (if possible) before editing their respective pages. --DekuGuy 20:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)