StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal

http://media.strategywiki.org/images/4/49/SW_CP_Banner.png

This page is for discussion of general community issues; if you just want to ask a question to more experienced users of the site, please use the staff lounge. To start a new thread [ click here]. Resolved threads are gradually archived; see the archives box to the right.

A new skin is under development. If you have any suggestions, please add them to the list

More release dates
Time for phase two of my revamp of the release date system...system-specific release dates. Also included in this is the creation of the co template, so that icons can be displayed for country- or system-specific companies (i.e. publishers). The co template is in testing on Medal of Honor: Frontline. This template is based on the icon template which I've created, which will take an ID, and turn it into an icon (or text-based equivalent if no icon yet exists). When Blendmaster gets back, I hope he can start filling in the missing icons, and standardising them all as icons of the actual hardware (rather than the system logo). So far for the system-specific release dates, I've created xboxrd, ps2rd and gcrd and applied them to Dead to Rights for testing. I want to know what you lot think of this so far, and whether I should stop and revert changes, or continue to create the rest of the system-specific release date templates. Last one to reply's a mashed potato. --DrBob (Talk) 06:17, 15 August 2007 (CDT) Oh, and see Template:Rd/Documentation for examples of how you can use icon to replace the old text-based stuff in brackets after release dates. --DrBob (Talk) 06:22, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Looks great, I'm going to protect the images because they're on the main page.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 07:20, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Done--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 07:29, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Using a format like the one in Breath_of_Fire_II is better than having to deal with a combination of a console and country release date template. Why not use that?  --Tathar [[Image:Tathar.jpg|32px]] (talk|contribs) 10:35, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * If, for example, you've only got one date when it was released on a particular console/in a particular country (and it also needs an icon for a country/console). The new templates can be applied to Breath of Fire II though; the edit I've just made to it should demonstrate. It's a bit messy though, since this game seems to have an inordinate amount of complexity in the publishing. Thankfully, most games don't. --DrBob (Talk) 11:11, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * As you can see, doing that for the release dates would be impractical if not outright messy. I propose that the method used in Breath of Fire II and a few other guides for re-released games be the standard for re-released games and games released on multiple consoles.  --Tathar [[Image:Tathar.jpg|32px]] (talk|contribs) 11:19, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe we can use the icon themplate for the systems it was released on.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 11:47, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I tried that, and it didn't look so good. --DrBob (Talk) 12:01, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * As I said, Breath of Fire 2 is a case apart from everything else; it has one of the most complex release date setups on the wiki (believe me, I've edited hundreds of them). For the moment, I think release date setups should be decided on a case-by-case basis, at the author's discretion, but in the future I hope to write some guidelines. Something similar to how it's done for the actual release dates (not the publishers) for that game should be as you say, one pattern people could use. --DrBob (Talk) 12:01, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Well being so complex and yet being able to have such an aesthetic look for its release dates shows that it is a very adaptable proposed standard. Other guides have used it before the BoF2 guide was even started, for example Zelda II: The Adventure of Link. --Tathar [[Image:Tathar.jpg|32px]] (talk|contribs) 01:05, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Zelda II can still add the release dates of its releases that haven't been added without using another format. A case-by-case basis has shortcomings that have been talked about every time something was standardized, and this can work for single-country, global, single-system, and multi-system release date scenarios.  --Tathar [[Image:Tathar.jpg|32px]] (talk|contribs) 01:17, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I personally prefer not to use those new templates (ps2rd, gcrd, xboxrd). It looks much cleaner.  I also find it much easier to read a word to figure out the console name instead of trying to figure out which console the picture is trying to represent.  -- Prod (Talk) 11:26, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * OK. After a long argument discussion on IRC, we've decided to scrap the templates Prod just mentioned, and instead do things as described in the documentation for the new template: sys. -- 14:11, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Rearrange rd
Current suggestion that's been thrown around on IRC is to change to. -- Prod (Talk) 01:06, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Couldn't we do both?--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 04:32, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Right now the template turns Year|Date into Date, Year. If the template was reversed all current uses would become Year, Date. The only way around this is by using #switch or similar, which complicates the template and unnecessarily increases server load. GarrettTalk 05:07, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * As I said on IRC, I'm against this change, because it would mean ordering the parameters in an order inconsistent with their priority. You can have, but you can't have  on its own; it just doesn't make sense. It's good programming practice to have optional parameters after required ones, and the year is required. The only possible reason for making this change would be because the parameter order is apparently "confusing" as it currently is, yet I've never seen incorrect usage of the template, even from new contributors. -- 05:15, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Sounds good, I just didn't understand why. -- 13:53, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Super Mario Bros. 2
That page currently links to a disambiguation page which leads to Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan) and Super Mario Bros. 2 (US). In reality, the Japanese version is what NA refers to as Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels (see this page). Shoud we move the Japan page to Lost Levels and the US to just Super Mario Bros. 2? I've been following the American naming scheme when working with the Wii Virtual Console page and I think it would make more sense to continue that way. What do you guys think?-- Duke Ruckley  11:54, 15 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Technically, this would not be the correct way to handle the problem. While Nintendo of America may have refered to SMB2j as the Lost Levels, there is no such game title as the "Lost Levels".  The official title of these two different games, in both regions, is "Super Mario Bros. 2", so the region must serve as the disambiguation.  While the Wii Virtual Console page is free to refer to the game in any one particular format (in this case, American as you have chosen), the naming convention for the main pages on this site must stick to official names only.  Procyon (Talk) 12:44, 15 August 2007 (CDT)


 * I thought it was official, since it was released in America under Super Mario All-Stars as the Lost Levels. Either way works for me.  In fact, if we don't change anything that's less work to do!-- Duke  Ruckley  14:07, 15 August 2007 (CDT)


 * It's official as the English translation. He said that.  But what he's saying is it was first released, officially, as Super Mario Bros. 2... in Japan.  -- 16:16, 15 August 2007 (CDT)

Redirect Pages
I was think about redirect pages (don't we all), and it occurred to me that some people might come to this site and type the name of a particular boss or world, etc into the search field. So would it be acceptable to create redirect pages for popular bosses/worlds? For example, Meta-Ridley could redirect to the relevant page in the Metroid Prime guide and Wario Stadium could redirect to it's page in the Mario Kart DS guide. It would be a little harder for characters that appear in several games, such as Ganon or Bowser, but they could also redirect to the relevant series/category page. Would this be useful to the casual SW-user or am I just being pedantic? --RamonSalazar 14:45, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I highly doubt that that would be useful, and to pick apart your examples...
 * Meta Ridley is in Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2, and (sorry for those of you that don't like spoilers, but...) Metroid Prime 3, and maybe a few other games. Which one would it point to?
 * Wario Stadium is not only in Mario Kart DS, but also Mario Kart 64 (and maybe a few others).
 * Plus, there are thousands of redirects that would have to be created then. I really don't think that it would be useful (if anything it would just clog the database). -- 14:59, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


 * The reason we don't need to redirect to disambig pages for these terms is because by searching you'll be returned all relevant (and non-relevant) pages with the term in it. People should be able to find what they're looking for with just that.  -- 15:08, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Ok, point taken, they are not really needed. But the excuse of having to create thousands of redirects is a pretty weak one - only the most popular ones would need to be done right away. The rest would just be created as and when. Secondly, would the extra pages really clog up the database? When redirect pages were the Collaboration of the Month, people were advised to make as many pages as they could, even covering common mis-spellings of game names. --RamonSalazar 15:25, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
 * How do you gauge which ones are more popular? :-P I don't think we advised people to create redirects for misspellings of names, unless they were really common ones. My memory must've faded. Anyway, I disagree with this too. :-) -- 17:39, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Ok, I admit defeat on this one guys. But just so you know I'm not mental and making this stuff up, look here. --RamonSalazar 18:54, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah that is right, it's one of my first memories of strategywiki lol--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 05:12, 17 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Anyway, Zelda II needs to redirect to the proper guide. Searching for the guide is useless, perhaps because the title includes a colon.  I had a very hard time finding the guide yesterday, so it needs a redirect.  --Tathar [[Image:Tathar.jpg|32px]] (talk|contribs) 10:39, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * So make it Tathar. It takes two seconds.  Procyon (Talk) 10:48, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Company Categories
Ok so as I was copying info from Wikipedia to the Square EA page I decided to keep these three categories (potentially useful for categorizing):
 * Category:Defunct video game companies
 * Category:Companies established in 1998
 * Category:2003 disestablishments

Now, these three present several different categorization ideas that I think are important. The first collects companies that are no longer active; the second categorizes comapanies by age, and the third categorizes dead ones by the year they died. Although these are useful, do they work for our scope? The second two might almost be too much information, however I really think the defunct video game company category is useful for looking at those companies who aren't going to release a sequel to that awesome series you love... ya know? But, I have an even better idea for integrating these: automatic population via the company infobox, like we have for Template:Infobox. -- 20:15, 17 August 2007 (CDT)
 * We already have Category:Defunct companies (which is automatically assigned to pages which use company's "closed" parameter), as well as Category:1998 and Category:2003. I don't think it's worth having separate categories for the years of company establishments/disestablishments, since there aren't going to be that many (one a year, maybe)? -- 03:36, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Pages needing Wikification
What do you need to do with these, many have no preformatted text or badly made tables or ASCII art so when should the wikify tag be removed or be replaced ith a cleanup tag?--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 15:55, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * There's no point in replacing the tag; you might as well just go through them and clean them up, and remove all tags. But yeah, they just need general cleanup. -- 17:10, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yea, many of these are really just cleanup/subpage candidates. I put pages there that I "planned" to look at as soon as I finished with the AGN->HN changing.  I can give you specifics about what most of the pages need if you want to know (ask on IRC). -- Prod (Talk) 17:59, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

StrategyWiki:Projects
Category:StrategyWiki projects and all the included fun and excitement! -- Prod (Talk) 18:47, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Link to discussion pages
Is there someway that the links to discussion pages could be modified so they look different if there is no talk page (e.g. Wikipedia has the text in red)? Maybe gray out the text, swap the background and text colors, or add a symbol/text if there is no page? I often check out the talk pages for articles I view/edit, and it would be convenient to know right away if there is no talk page to go to. - Koweja 16:25, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Since no one has answered yet... I think that this is a definite possibility but its up to one of the beauracrats (Echelon, DrBob, Dan, PowerMatt). -- 19:17, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I've modified the PHP to put the "new" class on the discussion link if the page doesn't exist (as it currently does for links in articles which point to non-existent pages), so now it's up to somebody to modify the BlueCloud CSS to change the appearance of the link when it has that class. (I don't have time, sorry.) -- 07:51, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I've just seen this and liking it! Baejung92 14:42, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
 * One slight glitch is in the "would like to create" in the toolbar of my user page, somehow the css has affected this and it looks strange(also note the links have always been purple).--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 16:44, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I did a temporary fix to your user page until a more permanent fix can be made (such as DrBob or someone else with server access assigning an id to each item in the toolbox). -- 17:32, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, DrBob implemented ids for all the toolbox items to the li elements (so the discussion is , for example). I've implemented that into MediaWiki:BlueCloud.css, so there shouldn't be any more bugs regarding this. -- 19:04, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Much better now. Thanks! - Koweja 10:38, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

Sims 2 partnership
I noticed from this diff http://simpedia.co.uk. They don't seem to have much in the line of walkthrough information which is good for us. However, they are still rather small, so I'm not sure if it's worth it. If we decide against the partnership, the link should be removed since they are essentially competitors. -- Prod (Talk) 20:59, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd say no, just remove the link. -- 22:07, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll talk with me colleagues. &mdash; Supuhstar * [[Image:Supuhstar(SupuhSmall).gif]]

PC games
Since we're trying to reach gamers, and not technology people, can we stitch the various PC system categories back together? Not everyone knows that XP is 2000 is NT and some people have started adding them to the infoboxes. -- Prod (Talk) 21:04, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm wondering why was it decided to use "NT" in the first place? XP and Vista are both under NT I think, and there are games that work with one but not with the others. Baejung92 21:52, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
 * The categories are named after the kernels (despite using an NT kernel, it was decided that Vista should be separate because Halo 2 and some others were artificially restricted to only work on Vista). This was first discussed last October, and was covered again in January. Since the kernel used doesn't automatically indicate (in)compatibility I guess it would make some sense to put them into a unified "Windows" category (MS-DOS, of course, would still be separate). GarrettTalk 22:41, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah I think if we combined all three cats, and then on the infoboxes we listed them correctly for the operating system it would work out best, since those links would link to Windows itself. Oh hey, in redirects can we redirect to sections?  If we had operating system info on the cat it might be useful to set those up... -- 00:12, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Regardless of whether we combine everything into one category or not, I think that there is a problem in sys. I think that |windows should show the windows logo, regardless of whether the game is for vista/nt/9x etc.  |PC would do the same thing.  This doesn't affect categorization, it just makes it easier to list the games' release dates in the infobox.  What do you guys think?-- Duke  Ruckley  17:09, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It's not immediately obvious, but sys automatically adds the associated system categories. The Windows and PC categories are not used for games, so are not valid sys usages. I did this because the way it was before it would just add a category of whatever was in the first parameter, resulting in Category:GBA and craziness like that. GarrettTalk 21:49, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Okay, I didn't realize it adds the category as well... I guess the question I have now is what do I do if I don't know which version of windows to use?  For example, Oni was released on Windows but it is not specified which version on either this site or wikipedia's.  I went straight to the source as well.  I'm not real familiar with which kernel corresponds with which Windows release so again I can't really do anything.  I also thought it would be much simpler to just say "Windows" and then specify which in the main text or in parentheses after the release date.  With categories, that's just too complicated though.


 * The only solution I can see right now is to put any guide that is in the Windows subcategories into the Windows categories as well. That way we can just specify Windows in the infobox.  Then we can manually add the Windows subcategories (9x, NT, etc) if we know what they are.  This would actually simplify things within the sys template as well as make it easier to use.  Thoughts?-- Duke  Ruckley  07:27, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

It's been about a week since anyone last added to this discussion; if we're all agreed I'll make a start on this in a couple of days. This will leave only Category:Linux, Category:MS-DOS, and the new Category:Windows, with Category:PC remaining the empty parent of all three. GarrettTalk 05:23, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I could deal with merging 9x and NT, since 99% of NT games run on 9x (I think), but we have to keep Vista separate due to the fact that Vista games will not run on anything older. A note in parentheses just won't cut it, and such fundamental incompatibilities have to be indicated by the guide's categorisation. (Sorry for the late reply.) -- 11:43, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I keep forgetting about Vista. :) The Games for Windows boxes make it clear which titles require Vista, so it shouldn't be too confusing to keep that aspect of categorisation. GarrettTalk 16:36, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Or, that could be in the system requirements. -- Prod (Talk) 17:27, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh, and Windows 3.1 could be merged with MS-DOS. -- 17:33, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Release Date fix needed
So if you look at some pages you'll see the new usage of the release date templates causes them to take up two lines. It's an unnecessary waste of space, as you can see the huge amount available on the right side. So, I'm not sure which template needs to be adjusted; probably Template:Release date, but what should we do? Specify a width? Like, 100%... I don't think it has anything to do with the use of sys or the icon floating right because I tested several icons of various heights... If need be we can also add some width to the area by adjusting Template:Infobox so that the headers take up a smaller width. I did this by throwing in a specified width on one header (90px)... see User:Notmyhandle/Sandbox4. -- 15:25, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
 * eh? How about some examples of broken pages? :-) -- 10:12, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Grand Theft Auto: Vice City is the one that comes to mind; all its dates are fine but, at the time of writing, the Xbox date is on two lines. I tried various ways of arranging the templates in an attempt to fix this, but in the end I gave up and saved it. It appears like that in both IE 7 and Firefox 2.0.0.6. GarrettTalk 04:40, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Fixed. -- 09:13, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Are we going to change the syntax of these (see discussion on rd talk page)? -- 12:37, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Discussion's here. -- 13:06, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Video game crack uploaded
Here, a crack.ace file has been uploaded. I have absolutely no idea what to do with it with it to delete it and I kinda don't want to go to the page in case it runs (According to wikipedia .ace is like .zip and you can't really tell what it is).--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 04:06, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Simply going to Image:Crack.ace won't execute the file. You have to download it and then run it first. That said it's only 340B, so I can't see it containing anything particularly useful to the site. I'd just go ahead and delete it. - Koweja 06:28, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 07:13, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Based on the size, I'd guess that the file was a virus, not even a crack. I'd recommend anyone who downloaded that file not to run it. Also, we don't support non-image/video files so they should be deleted anywayz. -- Prod (Talk) 13:17, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, that's why I didn't want to go to the image page unless it ran, luckily I think windows needs a decoder to decompress those files.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 13:24, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah the program is called WinAce; it's their proprietary compressed format. -- 14:50, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Reminder: Staff meeting on Saturday
Just to remind everyone, the next meeting is scheduled to occur at 2pm Eastern Daylight Saving Time on the 25th. All who can attend are encouraged to come to the IRC channel at that time. Procyon (Talk) 09:27, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry I missed it; I was on holiday. Could someone sort out a log, and update Meetings please? -- 10:12, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Community Portal
At the meeting we discussed a redesign of the Community Portal which would be more useful as a collaborative tool. We've already rearranged it a bit, but we had discussed a couple new possibilities. The shoutbox idea is really cool, but until we can implement it, I had mentioned the idea of a projects box. Check out this page and see if you like it. If so we can go ahead and use it until the shoutbox idea can be implemented. All I really did was replace the DPL with projects (they could also use better descriptions, both in the Community Portal and on their respective pages).-- Duke Ruckley  07:51, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * That's a very good idea, and much more useful than a list that's on the main page anyway. I say go for it. GarrettTalk 04:35, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

Watching Pages
I was wondering if it is possible to implement an option to "watch guide" where instead of having to select every page in a guide, to select the guide itself and have it include all subpages and talk pages. For example, if I want to watch each EarthBound subpage, I would choose watch all on the EarthBound main page. Think this is possible?-- Duke Ruckley  12:15, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It's totally possible, but not a feature implemented into mediawiki yet. We could write our own script, however...  All we need is a function that returns all the pages of a guide and then opens them using "http://strategywiki.org/w/index.php?title=PAGENAME&action=watch."  That would be messy, but at least it would get 'em all done quickly (mediawiki browser bomb anyone?).  -- 12:29, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * In addition to what NMH said, you might want to make sure it's down as a feature suggestion (option to watch subpages of watched pages) on MediaWiki's Bugzilla. -- 13:08, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Will do.-- Duke Ruckley  16:36, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Bug 2308 seems to be what I was looking for. However, it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 07:09, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Increasing Maximum Thumbnail Size
Karlcsr brought up a good issue regarding higher resolution systems and (old) people with bad eyesight/the desire for larger images. Can we at least give people like him the ability to up the thumbnails by a bit? How hard would it be to add 350, 400, 450 and 500px settings (or more...)? I think it's a good idea and another usability feature for our users. The downside to this is of course uncrisp/blurry/scaled images. It's their choice however, so why should we stop them? This brings up a touchy issue about the actual size of images themselves, like how big should sprites and other smaller/cropped images be? -- 20:23, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
 * First off, for those who aren't aware, logged-in users can change the default thumbnail size (go to Special:Preferences and click on "Files"), however this can only go up to 300px, does not affect images inserted at 1:1 scale (using |frame or simply no parameters), cannot scale images beyond 1:1, and is overridden by thumbnails with a specified size.
 * An ever-present problem is that big swathes of screen real estate are already taken up by the navigation bars (Wikipedia has only one). 1024x768 is currently the lowest average screen resolution; when using Blue Cloud at 1024x768 any image over 200-250px will quickly swallow up almost half of the available area. This is fine for lists, but for the average walkthrough the large size means that a lot of words are required to pad each image sufficiently before the next one.
 * As for sprites, generally we've been inserting them at original size wherever possible, or clean multiples of the original, as these present the best resulting image (especially on LCD displays). The problem is that while the original size works well inline the next cleanest multiple (usually 32x32) is bigger than the average default font size, and so disrupts the text flow.
 * This is largely a MediaWiki design matter, and not something we can easily change. Adding additional preferences scales is possible, but it would more than likely be overwritten by each version update. Specifying dimensions en masse isn't a solution either, as the large number of readers with good eyesight will find the oversized images disruptive to their browsing, and, in the case of sprite-based images, may even find the scaling makes them ugly. The best solution would be to submit a MediaWiki feature request for the thumbnail size to be changed from a drop-down to a text input box (meaning users could adjust it to absolutely anything they want) with an accompanying "override specified dimensions" check box, and then promote it on Wikipedia talk:Accessibility and the like. Largely aesthetic tweaks like this are much more likely to get done if a lot of people are asking for them. GarrettTalk 21:30, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I've just filed bug 11118. -- 01:47, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * DB, have you seen the comments? Also, how does this process work, is it a potential change so long as it remains "opened" ???  -- 11:55, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd forgotten about it; thanks for reminding me. I've now changed that setting here, so that you should now be able to choose 400 or 500px thumbnails too. To answer your question: yes. -- 18:22, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Thumbnail/Image Policy
Although each type of image needs its specific details (normal, frame, thumb, etc.); the main thing we need to determine is the policy regarding thumbnail usage and image size specification. I thought we had a disccusion of this recently, but it doesn't look like it according to our current CI topics. Image specification should NOT be used in conjunction with the "thumb" parameter because we emphasize the use of user preferences, which many people change to their liking (Baejung likes 200px, I like 250, Karl likes GIANT images, etc.). This is about THUMBS only, and I just want to make sure I have the right opinion on this topic, that we are all in agreement when it comes to the "when using thumbs don't specify an image size" policy (which needs to be placed somewhere for actual policy enforcement). -- 18:46, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd be opposed to such a policy. There are two many images where having a flexible size is actually a bad idea, such as the maps in LttP. Procyon made them that specific size for a good reason, as it flows nicely with the page. Basically, there would be too many exceptions to the policy to make it truly effectual/enforcible. -- 21:40, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Refreshing the PGotM and other front page monthlies
We need your votes and nominations.--Dan 10:38, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't forget collaboration of the month. There's currently a red link there, so we need to pick one soon.-- Duke  Ruckley  08:57, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Show Preview Boilerplate Text
I've created some boilerplate text to be placed in a contributor's talk page when they make many small edits on a single page. If you think it needs any changes or a better name, please feel free to edit it. showpreview-- Duke Ruckley  08:44, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Considering alternatives to Google Adsense
I thought I would throw this discussion wide open to the community. We've talked about it a few times in the staff meetings on IRC, but I'd like some input that any of you have about possible substitutes to Google Adsense. At the moment, it's helpful, but it doesn't quite cut the mustard. With more traffic, that may improve, but it can't be counted upon. There are alternatives out there, but I'm not particularly knowledgeable about many of them. I know that there is an eBay click-through program, and an Amazon click-through program. I also have a direct line to (and have been in contact with) the staff at Advertising.com, but this introduces the subject of visual ads and their placement. I have a feeling that the reception any non-text based visual advertisement is going to be very poor, from both the core community and the outlying community. However, I believe these ads really do stand the chance to create the highest possible stream of revenue from my personal understanding. I would love to be proven wrong, and possibly educated by anyone else if they have personal experience dealing with any of these, or other, possible alternatives. Thanks very much. Procyon (Talk) 13:35, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm fine with ads as long as they don't hinder editing, I really wouldn't want popups here. I think we should try the Amaon and Ebay links first but I don't think we'll get much from them really because if you want the walkthrough then you'll most likely have the game.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 15:15, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Not ebay, since what would they be selling that people reading the guide would want anyway? As for the Amazon ads, I think they are a good idea (and Garrett already has done some experimentation of how they get laid out, which is also a good thing). Perhaps having both Amazon and AdSense might make an extra hundred dollars or so in revenue per month (hopefully). Also, it appears that non BlueCloud skins don't have ads, so implement them there as well. As for the advertising.com flash/picture ads, as long as they're small and sort-of out of the way, I'm fine with it. Or even better, do what Wikia does and display larger and flashier ads when users are not logged in, and hide/shrink the flashy ones and stick with only the AdSense or whatever when they do log in (also encourages people to create accounts, and hopefully also use them -- perhaps make the type of ads that appear change based on how many edits a user makes, and outline it somewhere). I've brought up a couple of other points in the sections below. -- 16:10, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Auction Ads apparently yields up to 400% more than AdSense. Based on the demo the ads seem to be unobtrusive and properly targeted. We could probably make more from Amazon referrals, though. Unfortunately the Amazon ads box doesn't seem to detect products intelligently enough to give reliable links to the game a given page is actually covering, so the links would have to be done manually via a template of some sort (you can see my experiment right here). GarrettTalk 19:21, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I would recommend just sticking with Google AdSense, and perhaps adding an Amazon link; no other advertising services compare with AdSense (I'm a bit suspicious of the one Garrett brought up; I've never heard of it before), and I worry about turning StrategyWiki into a billboard. We're here for the guides, not adverts. -- 11:09, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I've heard of the service Garrett was mentioning. Personally I think if Garrett can easily implement some of them, we should try any and all that we can easily access.  DrBob, I understand your hesitation, but there's a bottom line for SW users: More money = bigger SW, and bigger SW = better experience for the users.  No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying you have to buy something (that's what the donate button is for ^_^), but there's money to be made, and we're not making enough of it.  We can even try implementing the idea that Skizzerz has for logged in vs. non-logged in users (and fixing the non-BlueCloud skins to show the ads as well).  There are so many ways now for users to filter out ads that if someone was truly offended by the sight of them, they could correct that for themselves.  Heck, Firefox makes ad filtering almost too easy!  Procyon (Talk) 14:43, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm currently in agreement with DrBob.. I don't really want to see any large ads on SW.  One of the reasons I left GameFAQs in the first place was because of all the annoying ads they have added.  As for the idea about logged in vs. not logged in users...  What's going to happen here is that potential contributors and browsers are going to come to the site for the first time and see all these big flashy ads, and then just leave.  I think that you are less likely to draw more contributors, even if you get rid of the ads for logged in users.  New users aren't going to know that offhand.  And its not going to be easy to keep their attention long enough for them to see that by registering they can get rid of those unwanted ads.


 * I think that by taking a very slow approach to adding ads would be better than just all of sudden having them. We should start small with the ads and work on having more people who regularly contribute first.  Once we have a very good amount of people, a bit of a following, we can then add the ads (for non-logged in users).  The right time to implement this is when it is more important to make more money than it is to attract new users.  I hope I'm making sense.-- Duke  Ruckley  18:35, 5 September 2007 (CDT)


 * MobyGames has had text-only product ads for a while now, but they offer logged-in users the ability to turn them off (it's not automatic). If it can be implemented without being incompatible with MediaWiki upgrades this would be a great way to maximise profits from visitors and minimise annoying regular contributors.
 * Even if that's not a viable solution, what we're proposing is nothing compared to the ridiculous level of product placement other gaming sites have—right now GameFAQs' main page has two banner ads, a square ad, and a themed background all imploring me to pre-order Medal of Honor: Airborne. Sometimes these ad themes even have mouse-over sounds/animations and other annoyances. IGN and GameSpy are little better, mixing animated ads with reminders about their tantalising "subscriber extras". GarrettTalk 05:32, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

I can do further experimenting with the Amazon sidebar, but before the concept can be actually implemented echelon will need to set up the referrer ID that the sales will be credited to. GarrettTalk 05:32, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Privacy Policy
It might be nice to have a privacy policy page, and then link to it on the bottom (where About and Disclaimers are). It could cover such things as account creation, cookies used, and info regarding donations, among other things. The two MediaWiki messages that control this are MediaWiki:Privacy and MediaWiki:Privacypage, and their presence is what lead me to believe that including them would be a good idea. What do you all think? -- 16:10, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Other Donation companies
While PayPal is fine, there are some people that don't like using it for whatever reason. I've browsed the web a bit and didn't find much in the way of alternatives to PayPal, but it might be nice to offer some alongside the PayPal button on Donate. Again, I'd like to see your thoughts on this (also, we should probably move "Donate" under "Help" in the sidebar, people are more likely to catch it as they scroll down a large-ish page if it is at the bottom). -- 16:10, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Do we have to worry about donations from minors? -- 21:18, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Account pruning
If our user growth has been occurring anywhere close to the current rate, do we have any kind of account pruning measures in place? Something like 0 total edits in 3 months and/or 0 recent edits in one year? It seems like it might be beneficial. Someone on IRC stated not all of the account creation is done benevolently. And while I doubt any of the recent activity is malicious, it would be interesting to know if we have any clean up measures in place. Just wondering. Procyon (Talk) 19:50, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think we do... anyway, I found a DeleteUser extension, but it is unstable and should not be installed here. However, it tells in the documentation the SQL queries that it sends to remove users from the database . Perhaps Echelon or someone could code something that does this automatically once an account meets certain conditions without a UI (although, some inactive accounts, such as blocked accounts and alternate-name accounts (like User:Skizzerz, which is blocked anyway) should be exempt from such deletions). -- 20:20, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Does Wikipedia prune accounts? I haven't heard of this being done before... What would be the advantage? echelontalk 01:11, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Reducing the number of accounts in the database, if you compare the number of accounts with edits, to the number of accounts just sitting there with no edits at all, you don't even come close to half.


 * A possible solution to all these rampant account creations, is to put a captcha on registration, this will certainly hinder any automated registrations and filter bot from person. -- 01:17, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, but these spare accounts are hardly affecting the performance of the database. I don't see any advantages associated with pruning them. Call me the devil's advocate, but I've never been in favor of this kind of action. Having unused accounts floating around will neither increase nor decrease the probability of a spambot or vandal attack; the issue of using a captcha to deter spammers is another issue onto itself, and I wouldn't be one to disagree with the benefits such a system would offer. But as for the issue of account deletion, what other organizations do this? MySpace doesn't delete the billions of unused accounts it has. Does Google do that with Gmail users? I doubt it. And as unlikely as it might be, what of the possible implications a faulty DELETE query on the users table would bring?  might not appear anywhere within the MediaWiki code base, but I am less willing to trust that the same scrutiny that produces the relatively bug-free MediaWiki software lies within the hands (or capability) of third party developers. echelontalk 01:37, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I never said I supported it, I just thought that would be the only "advantage" to doing so. --
 * I would recommend NOT pruning accounts. Having admind many forums over the last ten odd years I can say with certainly it's a very bad practice to prune.  The much better approach to this is an occasional email nudge.  You would be surprised how many people respond to those things.  I myself take long breaks from editing this site (hell I started the Neverwinter Nights guide like 4 months ago and haven't touched it in like 3) but I eventually return a few months later,  but if I came back and my account was gone then I would never ever return.  What you may want to do is re-validate the email after a certain time period has passed but that would be the extent that I would go.  Just remember that nothing is gained by pruning accounts but a very small amount or room on the back end DB (you might gain 10MB),  but you could potentially loose contributing members of the site.  Just my 0.02 cents.  -- Argash 03:32, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Agreed most definitely with Argash and Echelon. -- 11:07, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * OK cool, if my concerns about the user growth being a detriment to database performance are unfounded, consider the matter closed. I didn't know if it would hamper the speed or available space of the database at a certain point or not.  It's actually one less concern to deal with in this case.  Procyon (Talk) 14:45, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Thoughts on Template:Helpwanted
Consider this a kind of marketing move.

A lot of visitors see our site and find stubs for the games that they would consider to be popular. As such, they may look at our site with discontent. Instead, we should turn this into a positive reaction: a chance for the visitor to show their appreciation for the game by contributing. By making that emotional connection with the visitor, we may gain a higher percentage of core contributors and maintainers. (Those not limited to a few casual edits.) Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if motivation of this sort leads to more guides being completed.

Note that we shouldn't (and wouldn't want to) overuse this template. If the visitor sees it on every incomplete guide, they may quickly consider the template a standard boilerplate, and hence they may loose that original emotional queue.

If we do choose to implement a template of this sort, I would endeavor to make it even more personalized and tailored to each guide. Perhaps we could insert a few parameters into it, so that on the Halo 2 guide, it stresses that Master Chief would hate to see the guide fail. If that doesn't establish a connection with the visitor, I don't know what will.

Thoughts? echelontalk 01:10, 5 September 2007 (CDT)


 * It's a good start. Wikipedia has varying cleanup/stub/etc templates for articles that need each respective one. It's better than just having stub and cleanup on everything. -- 01:21, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * OK. How about implementing this for all guides which are popular for the main consoles (look on the consoles' pages for the list), but aren't at completion stage 4? -- 14:25, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * No. I think that this should be used sparingly and that the credential for use is based on active users for the guide.  For example, you might have one or more people working hard on a guide, and then they post this on it knowing they need more help.  If we just say, these "need help" it acts as a stub template notification.  There has to be more than "please do this because it's empty."  -- 15:15, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Minor edit needed on Main Page
The following line at the bottom of the Featured Article box should be commented out until it's actually true:

There are many Featured guides to browse and you can vote on future choices at the requests page.

Considering there's only one FA at the moment the line looks really really bad. --Argash 04:11, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Good idea, I've changed the wording. Hopefully we'll get some more featured guides soon... GarrettTalk 05:10, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

August Archive page has been locked for some reason.
I just tried to archive every thing that hadn't been updated since the 20th of August but some one's apparently locked the August archives so I've temporarily deposited them into the September archives. Could someone fix that for me please. -Argash 05:34, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Done-- Duke Ruckley  06:25, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Peer Review Project
For a while now I've been wanting to copy Wikipedia's Peer Review system over here. Now that the Featured Article system has been put in place I think it's even more important. So over the next few days I plan on starting the frame work of the system/project but I'm not sure where I should put it. Per the conversation here there does not appear to be consensus. I was planning on putting it at WikiProject Peer Review or Peer Review. For the record Wikipedia has it located at  Peer review . Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? -Argash 05:52, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Personally, I don't see the point of this. It adds a needless extra layer of complication on top of processes that we already have in place.  We're not Wikipedia, we have far less need for the level of bureaucracy that they have established.  Procyon (Talk) 09:18, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with Procyon; while I know what you want to achieve, simply copying Wikipedia's practices is not going to be beneficial for StrategyWiki — they're designed to operate on a much larger scale than what we need, and are needlessly bureaucratic, as Proc says. I think the rule we've got at the moment that a featured guide must be completely proofread by people who know what they're doing will suffice for the time being. -- 11:22, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think that an exact copy would be the best way your right. And even still it would certainly not be manditory.  It would be a way for people who've put alot of time into a guide to request another persons opinion on what should be done next.  Simply put it would stream line the asking process and open it up so anyone can help pr a guide. -Argash 16:45, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just post a new section here in CI, and if someone is interested, they'll look it over. Right now, we just want as much content as possible, and since the sysop-to-active non sysop ratio is ridiculously high, things get cleaned up etc. on a minor scale to begin with. The less bureaucratic processes we have, the better. -- 16:59, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

I think that the point being made, in this case, is that we are still a close and tight-knit community that is very much hands on. There isn't much that goes on that is beyond our attention or goes unnoticed. I think WP's contributors are a much broader spectrum of users, and so much is taking place there, that they need those kinds of magnets to draw certain people's attention to issues that need it. Fortunately, we haven't reached that point, and hopefully we never truly will. Procyon (Talk) 20:22, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * For reference. we have started these off at Category:StrategyWiki projects. -- Prod (Talk) 10:06, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

What's happened
In IE6 the bottom of the page has been really messed up, the logos are everywhere and images are in the wrong place, there's also a dark blue bar at the bottom of the page, it's like someone's messed up the skin. I tried a ctrl and f5 but it hasn't helped. Is there anything that can be done (apart from the obvious)?--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 13:02, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Me and DrBob are working on cleaning up some of the CSS/JS on the site (ok, it's mostly DrBob :P). Please note any problems here (or talk to DB on IRC directly) and they will be fixed asap. -- Prod (Talk) 13:21, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My watchlist is not working. O_O is it related to this?--IsaacGS 13:39, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * shakes his magic 8-ball* - Yes. Please add to the following list. -- Prod (Talk) 13:50, 9 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Anonymous users couldn't access site
 * Images at bottom mixed around for IE6
 * Can't access Special:Watchlist (blank page)
 * I use Firefox and everything works fine. But when I load up IE6 or IE6 Tab in Firefox, all I get is a blank screen on every stradegywiki page with nothing but one of the various "please donate" messages at the top of the page. -- Takiten 13:53, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, that one should be fixed, try purging your cache (the ie cache). -- Prod (Talk) 13:56, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just to say,transparency in IE6 is now working but the images are still messed up :)--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:36, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm probably not going to be able to fix this for a little while, as school's started up again, so I've got no time on my hands (and booting up Windows to test in IE isn't the quickest of tasks). If the only things still messed up are the images at the bottom, I think people can live with it for a while, can't they? -- 16:51, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just to note, another problem is the completion stage icon is messed up on the main page of a guide, it gets stretched.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions)
 * And the transparency doesn't work when you look at the image on media.strategywiki.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:23, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It won't, because the JS which fixes transparency in IE isn't run when you look at images directly (i.e. on media.strategywiki.org). -- 11:03, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Welcoming users
I was told by Baejung92 that we're only welcoming users on their first edit and I'm wondering if this is official policy or what? If it's official policy I'd like to open discussion on changing it. My reasoning is that a simple welcome greeting even if it's obviously a pre-built form message, still tells the newbie that they are in fact welcome to this website. Additionally the boiler plate welcome message contains many helpful links to people who may be new to the idea of a wiki and are unsure of where to start. --Argash 23:22, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think the reasoning behind the policy was that out of the dozens of users that register per day, only one or two actually do anything, so it wasn't worth welcoming them all until they did something. But I'm wondering, what really is the point of the new user log then? Baejung92 23:33, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * But I agree with the links thing. I know they're included in a section of StrategyWiki: Guide, but is there a more noticeable spot that has these links? Baejung92 23:42, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Indeed, there were about 12 people who signed up over the course of 30 minutes today, and only one of them edited anything. There's many, MANY accounts that were created and have no edits, even months afterwards... It just ends up being a waste of time until we know they're actually here to edit. At least, this is my view on it. When a user with a red talk page shows up on my watchlist I always welcome them. --IsaacGS 23:57, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * There is 1 use I can think of, banning sockpuppets as it says which account creates other accounts.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 00:41, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I always look through the list to see if anyone is creating accounts with inappropriate names. The way the welcome template is worded, it is geared towards those that actually have made an edit. Besides, they can easily find all the key links in the left sidebar on every page. This is one policy that is NOT going to get changed anytime soon, and Argash, please don't break it. I'm thinking that we should set up an official policy page concerning the New User Log, it could finally stop these types of threads from popping up everywhere. -- 15:20, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Duly noted and agreed with. I would still like to see some way to stop the user log from appearing in the recent changes without having to hide all the minor edits as well.  Unfortunately I know that it is not quite as easy as that.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 20:23, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I see the usefulness in employing the user log, but in the recent changes, it just tends to get in the way. I don't really care to see any of the new accounts unless they are contributing something. Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 18:33, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Unfortunately, it isn't that simple. Either you have the log and it clutters RC, or you don't have it. There really isn't an option that removes it from RC, at least, none as of yet. -- 20:13, 25 September 2007 (CDT)

Waste of time?
I see several people say its a waste of time. To that I would say well it's my time to waste so why the heck does it matter to any one else? If I want to take the time to do it that should be my call. Honestly if thats the only "reason" for this "policy" I have to say it's a very weak reasoning. -- Argash 01:17, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It's also a waste of database space, and a waste of our reading time to have to go past them all in recent changes. -- 01:36, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Well if done properly they should be marked as minor edits which you can exclude from the recent edits page. But seriously is the time that I spend and the little db space used really that critical to you that we not welcome new users? --Argash 02:18, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with Argash here. I don't think that we have to welcome every new person, but if someone feels up to it, why not let them?  Maybe I'm wrong, but it can't take up that much space can it?  I know I personally won't spend the time, but if someone else will, why should we stop them?  On another note, I think the New User Log is rather useless otherwise.  I'd be okay with just dropping it (takes up a lot of space in the recent changes).  In that case, obviously we would not welcome everyone new to the site, only those that edit.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 07:08, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * If it's possible to remove new users from being logged in Recent changes, it would also still be possible to find them at Special:log/newusers in this case. But for some people, marking the edits as minor just to filter them isn't very beneficial, as other mainspace edits that are marked as minor need patrolling too. -- 08:26, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The only part of this conversation that I don't understand is: Why do you care Argash? Why not just focus on contributing more gaming content to the site instead of making such a big deal about a relatively minor issue?  Just my personal opinion... Procyon (Talk) 09:54, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think I may have already said this but enabling enhanced recent changes helps clear up the users.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:42, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Seriously Argash, WHY DO YOU CARE? If seeing all of those red links drives you nuts or something, I'll give you some css that makes them turn blue. As for the log, it has a great potential if utilized properly, and since CheckUser doesn't work, this is the next best thing for finding sock puppets. Duke, see my comment above the heading why it isn't a good idea to just welcome them anyways. -- 15:20, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I care because I see it as a very simple way to encourage new users to contribute to the site. It takes me literally 10 seconds to welcome them and if it encourages them to contribute so much the better. --Argash 21:28, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I disagree, it wastes space and clutters up recent changes.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 12:52, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

I say we either a) get rid of the extension since it has no use or b) welcome all users/allow people to welcome users at their leisure. -- 12:18, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * What about c) don't worry about it so freaking much? Anyway, Notmyhandle, the New User log has numerous uses. Since echelon has problems with getting CheckUser working, this extension is our only way to determine 100% if an account is a sock puppet. Also, it can be used to "filter" the new users, which I do every time I see it near the top of Recent Changes, I look at the names of the new users and determine if they are "appropriate." If they are not, I give them a notice of it. Also, it can be used to generate statistics of on average how many different accounts are registered each day. As for your second option, the way that the welcome template is worded makes it sound like they have already contributed, and this wording shouldn't change just to cater to everyone that registers. Plus, it's a waste of database space. Sure, you say, it only eats up a few thousand bytes per welcome, but with 60-ish+ new users each day, that totals up to quite a bit. People can already welcome users at their leisure, but look at that phrase. The key word is "users", which generally indicates that they've actually used their account, not that they just made one because the notice on the edit page view told them to. Besides, I'm sure a lot of those registrations are automated (captchas, anyone?), and welcoming a machine is just weird. -- 17:31, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Speaking of User:Mmm, I'm pretty sure that is a sockpuppet. Assuming a 4 m's or a 5 m's comes along, you should just go ahead and block it.--IsaacGS 19:16, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, It's not a 100% sure way though.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 01:56, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Mmm was just a suspicion, when I was saying 100%, I meant something like this. -- 08:35, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Please be careful when banning these kinds of offenses. Sometimes it can be multiple people at the same house with one account each, or it could be ip's taken from a pool (dial up users).  Bans should be for sockpuppet behaviour, not simply for multiple accounts with the same IP. -- Prod (Talk) 09:07, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Um, I meant that it was a tool to find other accounts by a user if they ever do vandalise. It would be insane just to ban someone for having multiple accounts... (especially since the vast majority of the sysops here have more than one account, so we'd have to ban ourselves then :P) -- 11:23, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Pokemon Artwork Sizes
I noticed as I was browsing the Pokemon Diamond and Pearl guide that although certain Pokemon icons say they're 40 pixels, some come out bigger than others, which looks rather sloppy. Some of the most noticeable ones are and. Why do they come out like that? You have to shrink the Budew down to 20 pixels to have it come out basically the same size as the Cascoon. --Myth (talk)
 * It's because the images widths are different. In the Pokédex i've tried to make them the right size.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions)
 * I just thought it was odd that it said they were all 40 pixels but they are different sizes...I didn't think that was possible. Anyhow, I guess I'll just have to shrink them down/up until a solution comes up. --Myth (talk) 16:32, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I finally figured out how to fix this while working on the GSC guide, and had been meaning to go back through RBY and fix it up... The problem is that 40px was an attempt to limit the height more than the width.  But specifying 40px only limits the width.  If all of the artwork was exactly square, that method would have worked.  Instead, I realized that the problem is better handled by using 80x40px.  That forces the height to be no more than 40, and limits the width to 80 if for some reason, the image is more than twice as wide as the height (which does not apply to any of the art).  The end result looks like: [[image:Pokemon_268Cascoon.png|80x40px]] and [[image:Pokemon_406Budew.png|80x40px]], which makes the height match nicely.  So change all of the "40px" to "80x40px" and you'll be all set. Procyon (Talk) 16:40, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks a bunch Procyon ^_^ --Myth (talk) 17:52, 10 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Also, I was wondering whether there was any artwork for Shaymin or Arceus out. It would be nice if there

was. --Myth (talk) 18:32, 10 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I managed to Find an image of Arceus, ([[Image:Pokémon Diamond and Pearl Arceus.png|80x40px]]), but artwork of Shaymin is non-existent, it seems. --Myth (talk) 18:50, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Myth, that's a sprite, not artwork, I'll revert you for now until nintendo officially release it.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 00:58, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, can you do it, I can't edit the page.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 01:48, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

I can't use an artwork-like sprite for now? --Myth (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Sprites and artwork are not the same thing, I'd rather leave a link to the correctly named image (See all the others) and anyway, your image is a duplicate of this one here [[Image:PD&P Aruseus.png]] but with the new IE JS that i'm kinda getting anoyed at now I can't even view the page so please revert it with a non-existant link to the image. BTW if you look at the Diamond and pearl pokédex then you'll find shaymin (this page really lags so I don't want to get the link.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 12:03, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
 * How do I get rid of an image? Do I just delete the name and tag in the edit box? --Myth (talk) 17:15, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, I think I deleted it. Notify me if it didn't work. --Myth (talk) 17:42, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Only sysops can delete images, just stick delete on them, BTW prod deleted it.--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 01:41, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Redirects
Some general statements: Is this acceptable (probably unwritten since sysops are really the only ones enforcing it) policy? -- Prod (Talk) 20:39, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Double redirects are supposed to be fixed by re-pointing them, not deleting them.
 * Redirects should not be moved except for a history merge (just create a new one).
 * Redirect deletion should be handled from IRC if possible, though most main game page redirects should be left (unless they're really dumb). Most in guide redirects should be deleted except for some important ones (outside links which seem to be important that are now dead).


 * The only reason is was moved and deleted is because nobody will search for LoD in ALL CAPS, and the "double redirect" was a little vague. There is no point in repointing the redirect because they are theoretically the same, just a different casing, meaning having the ALL CAPS redirect and the Title Case version exist at the same time is pointless. It is more appropriate to have the redirect be in Title Case because nobody searches in ALL CAPS. -- 20:45, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * You'd be surprised. -- 01:00, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The point being, there is absolutely no reason to "Move" a redirect. -- Prod (Talk) 09:21, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Arcade plans and announcement
Well, I have pretty much covered as many of the most popular arcade games from 1983 and earlier that I planned on covering. There are a few lesser titles that I could do, but I would like to get back to working on the Famicom games. However, we have managed to amass a nice sizable number of games in the Arcade and MAME categories, over 250 and 200 respectively. So I figured now would be a good time to make some announcements on related sites, such as MAMEWorld, MAME.net, ArcadeControls.com and AtariAge which also serves as a huge retro gaming community hub. With any luck, it will drum up some interest and we'll see some new user accounts getting created that actually get used. Just wanted to share the news. Procyon (Talk) 21:13, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * This is potentially /.able... If we do make a "press release" create an entry here somewhere, and then have that link to the relevant pages (and tell others to link to that location.  Maybe our announcements section should be made into permalinks like CotM. -- Prod (Talk) 21:20, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Permalinks are a fantastic idea for news and press releases. I really like your thinking about this, Procyon. We can definitely use this particular news to generate more interest in SW, and I think various news sites and communities will like to post it for us. As for Slashdot, I would prefer to publish a general article about our site before we go and tell them about this accomplishment--we never attempted to get slashdotted before. There is no reason why we shouldn't get this Dugg rather immediately, though. Maybe as an additional bonus, we can include links to the various retro boxart pages you created. Those are pretty slick, too! :) echelontalk 22:27, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Go for it! -- 01:02, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Do you think we should try the wikipedia article again with all the new google hits?--Rocky http://media.strategywiki.org/images/thumb/7/78/Rally-X_Rock.png/25px-Rally-X_Rock.png (Talk - Contributions) 10:27, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Wikipedia's embedded ogg files
Is it just me, or are these inline/embeded ogg files new to wikipedia? Maybe it's just standing out since I'm a recent Linux-convert, but I don't recall stumbling over these before.

If it's possible to upload these files and they work well in Windows and IE, I would like to seriously consider the possibility of beginning to host gameplay videos on StrategyWiki. Another possibility would be for FLV files. We could easily build our own MediaWiki FLV player extension--I could get right to it, actually. echelontalk 22:40, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think I just answered my own question . I'll get to work on this in the morning, if you guys approve. echelontalk 22:40, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Does it have to be Flash? That means I can't easily play the files (no Flash on 64-bit Linux), and it's not an open-source technology. How about just embedded ogg files, as long as MW can thumbnail them? (Haven't spent any time researching this, so I'm prepared to be flamed.) -- 01:05, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Open source really shouldn't matter as long as it is easily accessible (and free money-wise) to get. I do agree that we should shy away from file types that do not cater to the entirety of our potential audience however, so we should stick with things that multiple operating systems (such as 64-bit Linux) can support. -- 15:03, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * We are aiming for a completely open-source approach (or at least, we were; has anything changed?) similarly to Wikipedia. Ogg/Theora embedded video should be supported on most platforms, as they'll all have an embedded video player of some description, and ogg codecs get everywhere (although vanilla Windows users will probably have to install the codec). I'm open to suggestions for other video container/codec combinations, though. -- 15:38, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * That Wikipedia template is a very recent change. Thanks to the long-awaited media back-end rewrite, MediaWiki 1.11a and newer can generate thumbnails from Theora videos on the fly with the same functionality as the image formats. The actual embedding is done via OggHandler, released earlier this month. It uses the Cortado Java applet to embed the video (the player even includes a codec, meaning no separate installation is necessary).
 * Unfortunately the extension only loads the player after you click the button, whereas Flash and DivX solutions have the player fully embedded in a "sleep" state. To play a video using this extension you first have to wait for AJAX to retrieve the player code, and then wait again for the Java runtime to initialise!
 * What I'm worried about is the negative effect on the site's reception. Even in my short time fiddling with the extension I'd far prefer to take the time to open the file in WMP or VLC rather than put up with OggHandler. The extension feels sluggish and outdated, and it will disappoint anyone used to the fluidity of YouTube or GameTrailers; many people will be much less likely to directly watch StrategyWiki's videos in the future, which defeats the very purpose of embedding them! To make matters worse the play button looks just like Windows Media Player 11's&mdash;so much like it that I decided the new media back-end had detected WMP and would use it to seamlessly embed the video. Unfortunately, this idea was smashed the moment Java started loading...
 * Statistically, the percentage of visitors using 64-bit Linux (and any other OSes that can't install Flash) will always very, very small; they can simply download VLC Player or the like and then click through to the FLV to watch it. It would be a simple matter to have the "no Flash" error text provide a link straight to the FLV.
 * Theora is a nice format in and of itself, but I don't think it's a good idea to annoy a sizeable percentage of our target audience just to maintain open source fidelity. If we are going to have videos uploaded here embedding is a must, and to me this nasty AJAX+Java solution doesn't cut it; I am strongly opposed to this extension in its current state, and this means that I'm also strongly opposed to using Theora here unless a better embeddable player can be found. GarrettTalk 03:43, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

ZeldaWiki partnership
Recently, the head guy at ZeldaWiki left a message on echelon's talk page regarding the exchanges of links. Browsing through ZeldaWiki, I've noticed that they've held up their end of our deal by linking to us on the game pages, but we, as of yet, have not really upheld our end (the only place I really found them were two in LttP). After a brief discussion on GoldenChaos's talk page, it was decided to bring it up here, so that's what I'm doing.

Pretty much, this "request" is broken up into two parts, namely, what we should link and how often we should link it. As for what, I think that characters and enemies should definitely be linked to ZeldaWiki, and perhaps items as well. Now, for how often, I'm thinking that the very first mention of the character/enemy/item/whatever on the page should be linked (much like our Bulbapedia partnership). Due to the immense amount of time since the partnership began, I wish to get started on this as soon as possible, so please leave your opinions/views/comments below. -- 17:22, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think this would be a great collaboration of the month and we should definitely get started right away.-- Duke Ruckley Talk 20:39, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * A simple "zw" template, similar to the bp template we have should do for most of the links, and the "For more information..." box on the front page of Zelda guides that was being discussed on echelon's talk page could be dealt with by a "zeldawiki" template, similar to wikipedia. -- 11:52, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I spoke about this on Ech's talk page, but I'll describe what our initial agreement sounded like: I would put "FAQ/Walkthrough on SW" on boss pages and game pages, and SW would implement a system similar to what goes on with SW and Bulbapedia. That was as far as we really got in our discussion - everything else was just chitter-chatter. So, yeah - you hit it right on the dot, Bob. Anything I can do to help get this collaboration going, just let me know! If it's making links and whatnot, I'm happy to help start this project out. --GoldenChaos 09:36, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I've gone ahead and created zw and zeldawiki (I hope you don't mind that I stole your logo for the second template; it can be changed if you want a different one used), which can now be used. zw is basically a wrapper for an interwiki link, and at the moment provides no extra functionality, but using it means we have the option of extending the template in future. -- 10:26, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * That's great, Bob! I have a transparent version of the logo, if you want to use that, or a version of the logo that isn't transparent but also doesn't have the extraneous blue background (aka a larger version of the famicon, which I'm not even sure is displaying right now - it's not showing up in my browser for some reason). I'll upload one of the two later. It'll look neater than the current version. --GoldenChaos 20:49, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Excuse me... that's... DrBob. Procyon (Talk) 20:53, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My appologies to dear Doctor. ;) Anyways, I've tried out the nifty template on a small section for the heck of it. I'm not sure how much you guys intent to wikify these articles. I was conservative in what I linked. If it were interwiki style, links would obviously be all over the place. Given the fact that it's a walkthrough, I don't know how much you guys intend to link or if you only intend to link each item/person/etc's reference only on their first entry in the walkthrough. Anyway: ALttP: Eastern Palace - PoI's
 * Actually, he's just Dr, not a doctor :P. I would go with only linking the important items (or when they are first obtained). I would suggest links under the name field on the items pages for each game. I'm a bit worried about sending people to another site in the middle of a guide with minimal backlinkability, but the information is good over there.  What will the purpose of the Zeldawiki be? -- Prod (Talk) 23:43, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The "Dr" often confuses people. ;-) Zeldawiki is to be used on the main pages of Zelda guides, to link to Zelda Wiki's page on the game more clearly. -- 03:48, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think the current version's OK, but do what you will. :-) -- 03:48, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with Prod in that perhaps only on the items page do we link to ZeldaWiki (but then link to the items page in the guide). Besides, the parts where it's like [[Image:Zelda ALttP item Mushroom.png]]  just looks really weird having a pic before and after the link. As for zeldawiki, We need to work on that logo a bit before actually putting it up (right now it looks plain ugly with the blue-ish box just around the image and the image not being vertically centered). -- 10:02, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The reason I asked about the box version is because their game coverage seems to be minimal on most games. They have far more info relating to characters, items, and backstory. I think we might want to put their info on enemies and character pages as well. -- Prod (Talk) 14:41, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Question about linking outside of StrategyWiki. Is there a way to make the links to ZeldaWiki (and any other partnership site or even any outside link) open in a new window or tab?  That would eliminate the problem with having people stray from our site to another while allowing for more links to the partner sites.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 20:28, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Well they can just right click on the link and say open new window/tab... You can't open new tabs with HTML but you can open windows by adding target="_blank" inside of an  tag. -- 00:16, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
 * You can also do it via js (I have some js that works on another wiki), but many people don't like new tabs/windows being forced upon them. -- 15:04, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

Slightly O.T., but speaking of Zelda, I revised the way that the entire first game's Overworld was explained, and tried to make it clearer and easier to follow. Procyon (Talk) 15:44, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

Links
Ok so we need to link to them when regarding: Hm. I actually can't think of anything else... This policy is of course superceded by references to strategy. Anyone else have anything? -- 11:49, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Names (Bosses, Characters, Locations)

Anyone have anything to add? -- 03:27, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Not really, but I don't see the point in doing it just yet, seeing as you can't even view 99% of their pages now. Once their server gets fixed, then we can start adding them in. -- 20:11, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My view is that this has to be divided into two "types".

-- Prod (Talk) 23:43, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Non-Zelda games which have Zelda associations
 * If it has characters from the game (SSBB) then add a See also for each character
 * Zelda games
 * On the characters/items/locations pages, link the header names to zeldawiki
 * If for things like locations we don't have a page listing all of them, link the first occurrence in the walkthrough to them.

Tooltip text for Help Link
If you place your mouse over the help link on the side of the page, the tooltip text of "The place to find out about Wikipedia" instead of referencing StrategyWiki. --Cgsguy2 07:46, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Fixed. It's located in MediaWiki:Common.js so you may have to purge your cache (ctrl+f5 on firefox) to get it to work. -- Prod (Talk) 08:02, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

Template Policies
Alright, here's another thing we can debate upon... I'm thinking that we should name all of our game-specific templates to be in the format of Template:Game_Name/Template_Name. Rather than Propylons it would be The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind/Propylons. Additionally, we would then categorise these templates into their own category such as "Category:Game_Name templates."

I also want to ask, are we still using the naming policy where category names start captilized but aren't "titles?" What I mean is, if we do this is the word "templates" in the category going to be capitalized or not? Since most of you would agree that there isn't enough policy information for its own page, don't you think we need a miscellaneus policy page where all the little nuances can be listed? I really need these when thinking about doing stuff like we are now (if we decide now, things in the future are easier to get going). -- 00:32, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * That's the way all the MapleStory templates are. I'd like a game-specific category for templates.--IsaacGS 01:07, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * They should already have names which include the game name (or an abbreviation of it), and should already be categorised in Category:Guide-specific templates; I don't see any pressing need to create per-game categories for templates, unless that game has a huge number of custom templates. I would like people to still use sentence-case titles. I don't think we should have a "miscellaneous" policy page; it should be possible to integrate all the "little nuances" into the proper pages. -- 01:36, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Well then, where would we list "sentence-case titles?" -- 01:58, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd be against this as a policy, because games like The Bizarre Adventures of Woodruff and the Schnibble would have gigantic templates. If we must have a policy, it should go along with what our image policy is, as long as we can easily tell which game it's from (and preferably have a link to the main page of the game) it should be fine. -- Prod (Talk) 20:33, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I am tolerant of game acronyms. If we allow them, it looks like you would support this.  -- 18:27, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Votes

 * For
 * 18:27, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Against requiring full name, as long as game is easily figured out it's fine (such as ZTP) -- 21:44, 27 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Against
 * I'm against voting.... We go for consensus, not a mere vote. As long as noone come forward with major objections, it's settled. -- Prod (Talk) 22:43, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Staff meeting this Saturday
Hello everyone. It's been a bit quiet around here as of late, and that is most-likely an indication that things are running smoothly. Yet there are a few issues that need to be addressed, namely the site branding. Therefore, I'd like to propose that we stick to our suggested scheduled date of Sept. 29 for our staff meeting on the IRC. It would occur at 2pm EDT or 7pm GMT. You do not need to specifically say if you can make it, but please let us know if you specifcally can not make it. If there are a sufficient number of people who cannot, then we can postpone the meeting to another week. Thanks everyone. Procyon (Talk) 14:24, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * We could stand to have an agenda made before the meeting, the last one didn't really have an agenda and it was massively chaotic. Also, committee heads, please have some sort of report ready on how your committee is doing :). As for the agenda, perhaps something like so?
 * Branding (w/ DoubleJump; advantages, disadvantages, etc.)
 * Committee Reports (committee heads please prepare something in advance)
 * Advertisements (stick with AdSense, do the Amazon Referrals, etc.)
 * Open Topics until closing
 * Of course, feel free to add in anything that you feel is important :). -- 15:15, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I've got relatives coming over this weekend, so I almost definitely won't be able to make it. There's still a slim chance, but it's not likely. GarrettTalk 23:35, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

Signiture Images
I happened to notice as I took a glance at the Community Issues, that quite a few people have images included in their signitures. Now, I do not have any specific problem with these images, except for the fact that I find them extremely distracting. I was fine with the occasional user, but with this increasing amount of signiture images, I can see it becoming a problem in the near future.

If this is of any relevance, WP restricts images from sigs due to the fact that they serve as a distraction. Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 18:25, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Um, my only pet peeve with sig images is when people don't do the template method for their sigs (because the wiki code is so long). Obviously, having too many images per sig is bad, but I don't see what's wrong with just one (or the occasional two). Besides, if you really want distracting sigs, try looking at Uncyclopedia, and then come back here. You'll find that the sigs here are nice and laid back compared to the vast majority of uncyc's. -- 20:09, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It's good for the size of this community, since I can recognize who posted things without actually looking at or reading their name. -- 23:12, 25 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I see what you mean, Ryan. I also agree with Notmyhandle said, though this community isn't exactly very large IMO. Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 18:07, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * We don't really need it yet, I just think the template method can be vandalised (As many people haven't protected it and if they have a lot of sigs on pages then the job queue will be fairly big when they change it.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 02:07, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * People can always just request for protection of it, I'll happily oblige. Besides, even just semi-protecting it will stave off most vandalism, as new users will then have to wait four days to be able to edit it. -- 15:01, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The thing is, most people forget, anyway most are admins and you can move the page to a .css page to fully protect it.-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 15:39, 27 September 2007 (CDT)

Upgraded table of contents
As we recently decided to have all the links for a game and all its expansions listed on the main games ToC, it made some of the ToCs huge. I've created two new templates to try and make these more manageable. It will automatically hide all the tocs for the games which you aren't currently in. For example, when browsing pages in the Diablo II guide, when you expand the ToC at the top, it will hide the LoD ToC but show the D2 toc; when browsing pages in the Diablo II: Lord of Destruction guide, it will hide the D2 toc, but expand the LoD toc. What are your thoughts, and should we implement this for other games with expansion packs? -- Prod (Talk) 01:40, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Looks like it's a better way to do things. Everything else I can say doesn't amount to much: its uglier (maybe we can get rid of the boxes and shading?), the expansion packs don't have the basic game info listed (which technically is ok because you'd expect people to play the first one first...), I still prefer redundant pages (controls, etc.) over this method but we've already settled that, but yeah, it gets the job done and it clearly separates things.  -- 02:09, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I actually don't think its that ugly. I think it's cleaner.  However, I do agree about the expansion packs thing.  There are games like Guild Wars where there are three campaigns that are independent (you don't need one to play the others) but are so closely related that there is really only one guide.  I can see that as somewhat problematic.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 07:22, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It is possible to have some parts outside the hidden tocs so they are always shown. -- Prod (Talk) 08:48, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * What about TOCs for two expansion packs, will we need more templates?-- The preceding signed comment was added by Rocky (talk • contribs). 15:28, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It all goes on the same page, with only the use of the two templates. It hides everything except for the toc for the current game. -- Prod (Talk) 15:41, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * An example of the always shown pages can be found on Command & Conquer: Generals - Zero Hour. -- Prod (Talk) 20:02, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think it looks kinda ugly with the box around it and no color. Maybe a light blue?-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 21:00, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, come to think of it, light blue might not be the best idea with blue links on it :) Meh.  Oh well.-- Duke  Ruckley Talk 21:04, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I think if we removed the border lines it would be better (more like a normal ToC/old look), but the transparency is good because it works across all skins (and future skins) and in IE the boxes don't look good because there's this crappy padding of whitespace. -- 21:35, 26 September 2007 (CDT)