User talk:DrBob

Re: Editing tips
I just got your message regarding the Battlestations Midway thing. I admit - I have next to no idea what I'm doing. Really what I'm doing is stealing code from the other pages, seeing what it does in Preview, and seeing if I like what it does. I know very little about coding to make stuff like tables, so that's where the copypasta stuff goes in. I only copy the tables, obviously, and not their data =P

So yeah, I didn't even know that those did anything, so a list of my main errors would be useful and I could go back and edit them out. --Arrow 11:35, 29 November 2007 (CST)

I brushed it through, but I have yet to read it through throughly. I've mainly read it for the code I need for major stuff...like getting images to work for instance. --Arrow 11:44, 29 November 2007 (CST)

Thanks :)
Thank you man :) Feels good ^_^  Procyon (Talk) 12:20, 30 November 2007 (CST)

Your advice
Thanks for your help, I'll thoughtfully read the guide you gave me to avoid further mistakes. One question remains, though. I didn't make the whole Aquaria guide, I just added the "Forms" page for the guide. Do I have to add a special [[category:...] tag to my sub-page?

Ok, thank you very much for getting things straight. Sorry again for my mistakes. Oh and, my old images without tags are still in the database and I don't know how to delete them (the guide didn't seem to have information about image deletion). Do you guys have to delete them or is there a way for me to do it myself?

errors
Template:MapleStory/Versions/Areas, among others, is giving errors for all the refs. Not exactly sure what happened, as it wasn't an editing mistake or anything like that, so I figured it was best to bring it to your attention.--IsaacGS 01:56, 24 December 2007 (CST)

Mucho respect
lol, thank you :) I was afraid I might have lost that respect by putting a welcome note and a thank you to Nacht on his user page instead of his user talk page.  If you hadn't welcomed him, I never would have realized the mistake, cuz I was like, "hey, I thought I welcomed him…"  But yeah, I've been favoring those ellipsis for a while now.  You have definitely affected my writing style, and for the better :)  btw, did you see what Nacht wrote on my talk page? How cool is that? Procyon (Talk) 20:35, 11 January 2008 (CST)

Community Issues December Archive
Hey DB, it's time to make the archive (year's over, posts date back to October). Either instruct me on how to do it, or do it yourself (or do both so I can see the final product, selection process, etc.). I assume you cut the content from the main page and just paste it into the archive page, but I dunno. Thanks, -- 20:29, 12 January 2008 (CST)

Catch 'em all page
Hi DrBob. It's true that I used that section of the guide as a basis for that page. I altered some things as I went along. The guide is out of print, and the publisher is out of business, and the wording is not exact, just the organization and the tables, since the information was complete and concise. So I'm not sure if there is a legal issue. More of the text could be modified if necessary. Procyon (Talk) 07:43, 14 January 2008 (CST)

BSM?
I was wondering why you reverted the all-caps thing. The all-caps thing is present on all the other pages, so I figured it should be the same on the other page too. >.> --Arrow Windwhistler (talk) 13:15, 15 January 2008 (CST)


 * I actually got the idea off of the FF8 strategy guide, so recommend you check others too >.> --Arrow Windwhistler (talk) 14:33, 15 January 2008 (CST)

Usage of fraction symbols
I don't think we should use them because in browsers like Firefox, you can't even tell what the denominator is (⅓ looks like ½) - see for the change you reverted. -- 16:56, 15 January 2008 (CST)


 * They're tiny so you can't see the difference between 2 and 3, even after increasing the text size 10 times they are hardly distinguishable - I'm using 1024x768 resolution. -- 17:12, 15 January 2008 (CST)


 * There's clearly a difference (3 pixels to be exact), but look at it! http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8616/firefoxfractionswv0.png -- 17:38, 15 January 2008 (CST)


 * I agree, ⅓ looks like ½, unless you have a huge monitor and perfect eyesight (I have neither). Philcha 03:08, 17 January 2008 (CST)

TA manual
Fair point that users may have lost the paper manual (I haven't found mine yet) - I've edited to delete "it is assumed ..." and insert download link for manual. The time it would take to duplicate it here (complete with pics) could be better used in other ways. Philcha 03:08, 17 January 2008 (CST)

TF2 medic section
Hi. Sorry I haven't contributed after finishing the Chamber 19 portal walkthrough, but I've been a little busy at school.

I'm writing to hear if you'd be as kind as to go through the Medic guide I've made for Team Fortress 2, and tell me if it's ok. Since I'm not used to write strategies, and it is far from the same as writing a walkthrough, it would be nice to know if what I'm doing is right.

Also: If there are any mistakes or bad grammar and alike, feel welcome to correct it.

Thanks in advance

--Joda 03:04, 18 January 2008 (CST)

k thx :)

Joda 12:08, 18 January 2008 (CST)

Custom Headers
You seem to be knowledgeable about the technical aspects of StrategyWiki so I have a question for you. If I want to define one custom header and then include it in all the pages in a specific guide, is there any advantage to using a template over a transcluded page (i.e. Template:Street Fighter II/Header versus Street Fighter II/Header)? Is there some sort of agreed upon standard here that I should be following? --WretchedSpawn 18:48, 21 January 2008 (CST)

Image:Playstation-Button-Tcs.png
This is long overdue to be taken care of: you marked it for deletion, however it clearly has some use. I don't know what to do about it, but since it's not used beyond one game, we might as well folly policy procedure and delete it and replace instances of it with the three normal buttons... However, maybe we should be using this instead of separate images? -- 01:49, 22 January 2008 (CST)

spelling
Haha oops. Those regional spelling variants always get me. For the most part, the spell check in MS Word flags down anything funny looking and I post read that sentence. Do you know where I could find a list of some of the variants that pop up that could cause trouble? If I had a list of the words it would be so easy to teach my spell check that they are also valid words and be done with it. --Zaiqukaj 03:15, 24 January 2008 (CST)

future
I put March 9, 2008 as the date for SSBB's "future" template and it is showing up as March 1. Think you can fix it?-- Duke Ruckley Talk 22:18, 24 January 2008 (CST)

MrSue
I know he seems pretty annoying in his attempts to prompt users to edit specific pages, however from a cleanup perspective this a perfect way to prompt anyone (specifically Zai and myself) to cleanup and add more to said pages. I'd rather he do it himself, since it's quite simple to click the template buttons and check Wikipedia... but I still don't think this behavior merits perma bans (if temp bans were all you were thinking, then perhaps it will prompt him to learn). -- 01:46, 30 January 2008 (CST)
 * From the looks of it, he is either fairly illiterate or English is not his native language. Perhaps we can get a better understanding of him and explain to him how to better contribute...  Time for a message!  -- 01:53, 30 January 2008 (CST)

Randomedit
Why upload new maps for SMB which are exactly the same as the old ones and change the page to use them? It did nothing to enhance the guide. If you're just learning how to use wikimarkup, try the sandbox, and read our guide. --DrBob (talk) 06:30, 27 January 2008 (CST)


 * The new maps are not exactly the same and have some minor details i discovered so i replaced them and with better advice/instructions. So please consider unreverting them back to my edit. Thanks. --Randomeditor

Super Smash Bros. Melee/Regular Matches edit conflict
Wow. The cleanup edit you made was EXACTLY the same as the one I did... after you. Lol, what a waste of time. -- 01:14, 1 February 2008 (CST)

Advance Wars: Days of Ruin/Table of Contents
Yello. Is there anyway you can make the number count from 1-26 instead of it counting 1-10, 1-10, 1-6 in the walkthough section? Thanks.

--Firenova 15:17, 3 February 2008 (CST)

Total Annihilation Structures
I may add some descriptions later, or someone else can add some of that along with strategic information. I've been trying to pull the data and organize it for a week or two now, and I'd rather just dump what I've got than have it rot on my hard drive until I get around to adding text. I have a tendency to forget that people might want a bit of text because I tend to skip it when I'm reading guides ;) --Vizeroth 09:13, 9 February 2008 (CST)

Re: Crazyracing Kartrider
Okay. --cuckooman 11:18, 16 February 2008 (CST)


 * Thanks. Except it probably won't go much farther unless I get someone else to help, because I'm not much of an expert on the game. --cuckooman 12:43, 16 February 2008 (CST)

Sonic Riders Zero Gravity
I have a sub page so I think this can stay now despite one deletion. Right? Vikrant AP 11:16, 18 February 2008 (CST)
 * I an asking because you deleted iot earlier. Can it stay now? Vikrant AP 09:28, 19 February 2008 (CST)

Deletion of short article "Emulator"
I created a short article "Emulator" to resolve some red links, and you've just deleted it. I appreciate that StrategyWiki aims to be a collection of strategy guides rather than an encyclopedia. But sometimes an article will use terms that may be unfamiliar to newbies; but explaining such terms in each article will be time-consuming for editors and boring for more advanced readers, not to mention taking addtional space on StrategyWiki's server. What's the best general method of handling these explanations? Philcha 10:18, 1 March 2008 (CST)

Deletion of navigation links
You deleted the lines like:
 * You are in: Rappelz -> Quests -> Trainee Island -> Advanced Training

from the pages I made and I don't understand why.
 * I realise that you can see in the top of the page where you are too, but that are no hyperlinks.
 * The header template provides some hyperlinks such as the game's main page but doesn't show the path.

Is there another way to provide hyperlinks from where you are upto the game's main page? Maybe we can improve the header template so that is shows the hyperlinked path?
 * Hi. If you look carefully, there are navigation links quite similar to what you'd written above the Header Nav, and they are hyperlinked. ;-) --DrBob (talk) 09:18, 2 March 2008 (CST)
 * You're right, thx 01110011 09:21, 2 March 2008 (CST)
 * I now see why I overlooked it before: it's not in the preview, more accurate: not on the edit tab only on the article tab.01110011 09:33, 2 March 2008 (CST)

Epic Music
At least I can spot a "fake" when I see it =) I wouldn't mind seeing Alestorm though, they're sound definitely fits in with all similar bands; they're style of music sort of bothers me when they attempt to fit into that genre...  Norther would put on a good show, I just saw Sonata Arctica, and am going to be seeing Ministry soon, then a few months from now I get Turisas with a horde of other bands for a sweet mini festival - and then there's Gigantour and Rockstar Mayhem Fest...  This year rules.  -- 12:12, 2 March 2008 (CST)

Got Git working
I figured it all out. I set up a repository on the server and it's mainly sort of a way of keeping everything sorted out--the extensions, themes, hacks--everything.

Chat me up when you run into me and I'll get you the credentials and walk you through it. (There's some stuff you have to do since we'll be using some non-standard ports and such.)

Anyone else is welcome to have access. :) echelontalk 07:04, 7 March 2008 (CST)

keyb
On German keyboards, Y and Z are interchanged (compared to American keyboards). So even with keyb gr on, the Y of the American layout (which actually is Z with keyb gr) must be pressed at (Y)es/(N)o questions. That's what I wanted to say. Hopefully it's understandable. My English sadly is not at native level (but close to). --Prototype 21:48, 7 March 2008 (CST)

Categories on redirects
I noticed you reverted my edit, why? I thought redirects werent supposed to have categories. Isn't it a bit pointless to categorize something that isn't even an article? RobJ1981 01:53, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Puzzle game question
I noticed you categorized Carnival Games as puzzle. However, Mario Party is listed as action. Shouldn't there be a category for mini-games, or party games? I'm not sure it's correct to call the whole game itself, puzzle or action. Mario Party games have a wide variety of games, as does Carnival Games. RobJ1981 15:05, 15 March 2008 (CDT)

Log in problem
I've tried to login a few times (and it tells me I'm logged in), however the top shows I'm just an IP address. I've hit refresh to fix it, and I know cookies are enabled, so I'm not sure what is wrong. Any ideas on how to fix this? RobJ1981 02:39, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
 * I'm having this problem as well - except it's not showing my IP address at the top. My IP is 81.156.7.12; the one up top is 66.67.132.12. And using the preview option, I notice that I can sign this post, so it's possibly just that part of the header that's not picking up that I'm logged in. --aniki21 03:15, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Phantom Hourglass guide
I'm definitely going to keep working on it this week - I've got free time due to spring break, so I'll see how far I can get. Everything's going smoothly at the moment, I'll be sure to let you know if any problems crop up. Spikeball 18:13, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Actually, I guess there is one thing. I don't have the capability to take pictures of the maps/anything else in the game, which would probably be handy. Could you get the word out that the entire Phantom Hourglass article as a whole needs more pictures? Spikeball 18:59, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Daxter
Hello, I have a Daxter game. Can I add instructions in the "Exterminators Handbook" on this site. Srhat 07:59, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Thanks Srhat 08:18, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Hello, again. Which pictures I must use for show controll buttuns of the Daxter Game?

Guide completion stage question
Is there a certain place I can request to have an article checked to see if it's ready for the next stage? Kirby: Squeak Squad has a good amount of guide material currently. However, it's only listed at stage 0. RobJ1981 19:31, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Shadowrun (Genesis)
What exactly was wrong with making it not a redirect? I took a look at this:, and nothing else links there. Why should Shadowrun be the only thing that links there due to a redirect? Nitpicking little things doesn't appear to be productive in my view. RobJ1981 23:46, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Rob, it's because Sega is a redirect as well. -- 00:17, 3 April 2008 (CDT)
 * So, why couldn't it just be fixed in the first place... instead of just being undone? RobJ1981 01:09, 3 April 2008 (CDT)
 * "Sega Entertainment" might be the name under which Sega published other games too, so fixing the root problem – that Sega Entertainment wasn't linked to Category:Sega – is better than just changing the link for one guide. --DrBob (talk) 06:39, 3 April 2008 (CDT)
 * I just wanted to add a voice of support for DrBob's decision. There's the quick way of fixing something, and the right way of fixing something, and DrBob's way is the right way (as usual).  Sega Entertainment undoubtedly developed other games.  Just because only one guide links to it today, doesn't mean that there won't be more guides linking to it in the future.  Procyon (Talk) 09:32, 3 April 2008 (CDT)
 * However, Procyon, changing the link to skip the redirect altogether may not be a bad thing, although DB is against that. -- 01:04, 4 April 2008 (CDT)

Runescape
I will take care of whatever is left over and the merging that will require massive proofreading once I'm home in a few hours. Don't have too much fun without me :p

BTW, Should we be worrying about the histories for the deleted pages? --Zaiqukaj 09:51, 5 April 2008 (CDT)
 * OK then. We should be worrying a little, but if you say what page something's merged from in the edit history, the old page's edit history can always be found again quite easily. --DrBob (talk) 10:03, 5 April 2008 (CDT)

Re: Manual of Style
It's nothing personal, I just hate how controlling it is. HTML comments are frowned upon, thumbnails can't have size attributes, the navigation templates are standardized (my biggest problem, personally), and all the books are meant to look the same. I'm used to putting a personal spin on things and when I have to follow stricter guidelines like these I don't work well. Maybe it's a bit OCD, I don't know. It's not a problem, it just doesn't sit well with me. Pieman 13:36, 6 April 2008 (CDT)

Re: thanks
Thanks for noticing my work. I'm looking at the cleanup project now, and I'll try to help some more with it. I'm hoping to expand a few guides in the next few weeks as well. Also, is there any chance for new featured guides? There has been those same 5 for a while now. I somehow think some of the stage 4 guides might be ready (but I havent had the chance to look through them yet). RobJ1981 15:54, 9 April 2008 (CDT)

Re: C&C Template
Yes, I was looking for someone to draft into making a template. You're conscripted hired! --Arrow Windwhistler (talk) 14:27, 10 April 2008 (CDT)


 * I don't think I'll need "group damage type" as all members in a single squad are all identical (i.e all riflemen in a riflemen squad all cause the same damage type). On the other hand, a cost parameter would be nice.--Arrow Windwhistler (talk) 12:12, 12 April 2008 (CDT)


 * Another thing I noticed. For some reason the image I uploaded looks small, but when it's in the template it gets really inflated for some reason. It's not the most aesthetically pleasing thing in the world...is there a way you can display "just the image"? --Arrow Windwhistler (talk) 12:08, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

Spore split?
Should we split this now, or wait until later? From what I've read: the mobile version and the DS version are different games. The DS version even has a different name: Spore Creatures. The infobox on the Spore article will need to be cleaned up, if we do split it into several articles. RobJ1981 16:38, 10 April 2008 (CDT)

Tekken 6
It shows sub-page as a category, but I can't figure out how to remove it. RobJ1981 14:11, 13 April 2008 (CDT)

Big cleanup and category populating task
This category needs populating: Category:Nintendo Entertainment Analysis and Development, which requires many games to have infobox fixes. Wikipedia has the category filled with most (perhaps all) of the games here:. Also, I think anything with Nintendo Research & Development Team 4 (or RDT 4 and other appreviations) need to go there as well, as that's the former name of the game studio. I've started on it, and I'll try to do what I can in the next few days. RobJ1981 15:07, 13 April 2008 (CDT)

Templates for controller buttons?
Is there a page that has all of them listed, so I can just simply copy and paste when I'm working on a controls section? I've looked a little bit, and I didn't find one. For the controls I've written already, I had to go to another game's controls section to find them. RobJ1981 16:01, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

Thanks
Thanks for fixing all of the templates on the many, many, many guide pages.
 * My pleasure. :-) --DrBob (talk) 13:16, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

LoZMM
Some of the toc links got orphaned, can you please fix them? -- Prod (Talk) 17:31, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Re: series categories
Well I don't think it's a complete waste of time. Categories are useful and I plan to expand many of them, with at least basic information. I don't have all the time to populate the categories by creating articles for all of them, but I plan to start on some of the smaller series. RobJ1981 22:12, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

Re: BSM Redirect
Get rid of it if you want, but I figure just a handful of people may type in "BSM" instead of "Battlestations Midway".

If you're referring to the lowercase "walkthrough", though, that's because it's linked to from gaming.wikia.org. --Arrow Windwhistler (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2008 (CDT)

Metroid Prime
I noticed it was expanded recently, but I wasn't sure if reception and development were acceptable for articles here. I looked around a little, and didn't see them on any articles I saw. RobJ1981 01:12, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

Cleanup question
I noticed this page: Cleanup project/Misspellings, and I was wondering if I add a new word to the list... will it automatically catch all of the mistakes that need to be fixed? Or do I need to do something else, to make sure it works correctly? It looked like just a search feature, so I wasn't completely sure. Also the list could use some updating and checking. I would imagine, if the pages with drivel is gone through first, a big number of misspellings would be gone as well. On a related note: coming soon needs to be listed another way on the misspelling list. I found coming soon in this article Mario Kart 64/Tactics. The misspelling link for coming soon didn't catch it because it's listed as coming_soon. RobJ1981 14:18, 25 April 2008 (CDT)
 * Hm, I don't remember seeing this before, perhaps it was with the mediawiki upgrade, but either way we either need to find out if there's a way to search for exact strings or if it's a bug - in which case someone needs to make a report. I'm no good at that, last time I tried I got so friggen confused.  If we do go that way, I suggest passing it on to Skizz as something he should do.  -- 07:17, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Madden NFL 06/Game Tips
Should this be deleted? It's a tiny page that just tells the reader to go to Madden NFL 06/Passing Game. RobJ1981 14:50, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

Image renaming?
needs to be renamed to History Line Static Balloon. I wasn't sure how to do it. RobJ1981 19:35, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

Proper/British spellings
If offence doesn't belong, should defence be removed as well? RobJ1981 14:22, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

Guide completion
Do you know why the systems I added show the total present games at 0? I added Xbox 360 and Xbox Live Arcade (which do have contents in their categories), but they show up as empty on the guide completion page. I thought I followed how the others were set up, so I have no idea what I missed. RobJ1981 14:03, 4 May 2008 (CDT)
 * Nevermind, I noticed it was fixed now. RobJ1981 14:08, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Re: CCotM
Thanks. I'll work on it as soon as I get a chance, though I'm not sure when that will be. - Koweja (Talk | Contributions) 20:46, 9 May 2008 (CDT)

Metroid Prime Hunters
Might want to look at the weapon pages. -- Prod (Talk) 22:44, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

Subpage template
Why'd you remove the developer_header_box class, and what're you doing with a parameter‽ --DrBob (talk) 04:59, 14 May 2008 (CDT)
 * When it's there the template is invisible to me (using BlueCloud)--and this is without the disabling line in my CSS. I know it worked fine in the past, so I assume one of the various Wikipedia syncs has unknowingly killed off what made it work. As for the parameter, many times when that template is used someone (Prod, no doubt) has added used a non-existent parameter, so it made sense to me to do something about it. GarrettTalk 05:03, 14 May 2008 (CDT)
 * That class is supposed to make such templates invisible to people unless they've got the line I just added to your personal CSS. Parameter sounds like a good idea. --DrBob (talk) 05:07, 14 May 2008 (CDT)
 * Ah, I misunderstood its purpose then. Then again, I can't see the value of having it hidden while the very similar mergefrom and mergeto are in full view. GarrettTalk 05:13, 14 May 2008 (CDT)

LostWind
I got an email from the author to add his work in strategy wiki

from	a b 

to	Ali Al Hassawi 

date	Sat, May 17, 2008 at 3:36 AM

subject	Re: LostWinds FAQ

Yes, go ahead and use it.

Ali Al Hassawi  wrote:

Is it possible to add your FAQ to the following site?

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/LostWinds

Regards,

Re: Removing SVG support
I know I've been away for a while, so I must've missed the discussion about removing SVG support from icon. Where is it? --DrBob (talk) 06:59, 15 June 2008 (CDT)
 * This was never discussed. As you know, SVG transparency isn't working. That's fine for white or off-white backgrounds, but it looks ugly and unprofessional in sys. I uploaded PNG replacements to get around this, and then I decided I might as well simplify the template in the process. I also hoped that doing so would eliminate the calls to non-existent SVG equivalents of the PNG images. In fact, it seems to have lumped these phantom calls together (see Special:Whatlinkshere/Image:Deprecated template usage icon.png). If you can somehow fix the SVG rendering that would be great, but at the moment they're unfortunately inferior. :( GarrettTalk 16:35, 15 June 2008 (CDT)

MediaWiki upgrade
You have server access, right? I never can remember... :(

Some extensions we are using have XSS vulnerabilities. Additionally, MediaWiki 1.12.0 is now stable, and has a few nice additions. There's also an improved version of ParserFunctions to go along with it. Assuming you have server access, it would be great if you could sort this out at some point.

Also, if you have the time could you look into making a text dump publicly available? It would be good to have a few copies spread around just in case.

Anyway, many thanks in advance! :) GarrettTalk 18:15, 15 June 2008 (CDT)
 * I already updated those on Saturday :). The only one we have running was WatchSubpages which I have updated. Based on the quarterly release schedule, 1.13 is supposed to come out by the end of the month.  The upgrade was discussed in last month's meeting, and there are going to be issues when we make the change.  The soonest the upgrade will occur is mid July or so. When you say text dump, do you mean those XML export files which wikimedia does? Those are definitely planned, just that there are more pressing issues to get through first (like updates :)). -- Prod (Talk) 00:27, 16 June 2008 (CDT)


 * Ah, it makes sense to wait then, 1.13 is even better. As for the dumps, backups are made in the process of upgrading anyway, so I think that would be a sensible time to make them available. Images are a lesser concern. GarrettTalk 01:44, 16 June 2008 (CDT)

Please see
User_talk:Travb Travb 09:29, 23 June 2008 (CDT)

Announcement
As usual, I have no idea how to word it. I guess we can discuss it further today afternoon. -- Prod (Talk) 01:56, 30 June 2008 (CDT)

Pokémon Diamond and Pearl/Lake Acuity
So how to rectify it? Remove some parts of table? Vikrant AP 13:09, 3 July 2008 (CDT)

Last.fm
This is a little unrelated to anything, but didn't you say you have a Last.fm profile? Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 11:33, 17 August 2008 (CDT)

Welcome back
Are you actually back this time? If so, welcome back :). And if you are, can you please comment on the most recent threads ;). -- Prod (Talk) 13:03, 26 August 2008 (CDT)

Cell Phase cleanup
Thanks for finishing up the Cell Phase cleanup for Spore. I was planning on it, but IE 7 crashed about four times and I gave up...-- Duke Ruckley Talk 19:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)