User talk:Procyon

I welcome any and all feedback here, so please post your thoughts. Thank you.

Older or resolved matter can be found in my User talk archives.

Re: Preview your changes before you save
I'll make sure to limit the number of Saves I do in the future. However, I would like to point out that it's impossible to see the effect editing a template has on a page that uses that template in preview. That's one reason there's so many edits. Weird things happen when you use html and css in wikis so it's hard to get it right using Preview. That being said, I'll try to use it whenever I can.


 * "I would like to point out that it's impossible to see the effect editing a template has on a page that uses that template in preview": That's why many templates have self-references included in a section. :-) (Sorry for butting in.) --DrBob (Talk) 08:59, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Now that I'm trying to create a complex template for the first time, I understand exactly what he's talking about, and it's very frustrating. You can make a change to the noinclude section all that you want, but until you commit the changes you made in your template to the database, you can't ever preview your alterations.  I might start using regular wikipedia as a sand box ^_^ Procyon 13:40, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Wiki Knowledge
Thanks for the welcome message. I am an Administrator on Wiki Knowledge and I thought that sometime within the next few days I might import over some of the articles that are relevant that I created over from it, namely my articles on Eggerland, Mega Man, Mega Man 2, Rockman & Forte: Challenger from the Future, and the now work-in-progress Mega Man Timeline.

If you want to see what these articles look like before I import them, take a look at:

http://www.wikiknowledge.net/wiki/Eggerland

http://www.wikiknowledge.net/wiki/Mega_Man

http://www.wikiknowledge.net/wiki/Mega_Man_2

http://www.wikiknowledge.net/wiki/Rockman_%26_Forte:_Challenger_from_the_Future

http://www.wikiknowledge.net/wiki/Mega_Man_Timeline

Yes, the games have a lot of information with them along with some strategy, but that's because I always want to include the story/backstory and detailed info along with each game. Additionally, I make sure that everything I write with each game is properly cited so that users/readers know that the information is correct.

--Brahman 23:29, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Mega Man
I finally got around to copying over my work on Mega Man 1 and Mega Man 2, as well as Rockman & Forte: Challenger from the Future. The pain in the ass came in when I had to find all the images and copy them over as well, but now it's all good. I even put the Game Info box in that you all like, so hopefully you guys will enjoy it.

Any game-related articles that I write on WikiKnowledge I will most likely copy on over to here so that people can benefit from my contributions.

Also, I noted that the Mega Man 1 and Mega Man 2 pages are now marked for clean-up, but this is most likely because a lot of it isn't sub-paged. Oh well, that's mostly because I didn't sub-page it when I designed it in WikiKnowledge, but if you guys really have an issue with it's current layout, I suppose you can subpage the information. Still, hopefully you'll appreciate all the cool information that I put on it (such as the information provided by the Rockman Perfect Memories sourcebook).

Enjoy! --Brahman 02:12, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks so much Brahman! You did an awesome job.  It's true, the articles could use some sub-paging, but that should be easy to take care of.  By the way, I love that sourcebook, I have a copy at home as well.  I dunno if you are aware, but I'm one of the earliest FAQ writers for the Mega Man series. Some of my content is still on gamefaqs.  A small amount of the stuff I wrote got used by Capcom in the Mega Man 7 anniversary booklet without any credit to me (primarily what features premiere in each version.  That FAQ was published before MM7 came out.)  So, I'm a hard core original Mega Man lover at heart.  Great to have you on board!  Procyon 13:39, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Will you be adding those FAQs here? GarrettTalk 17:36, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * No, I wasn't planning on doing that per se. If you look at how I wrote them, they're not sufficient for StrategyWiki.  I wrote them back in like 1994 or something, when FAQs didn't look they way they do today.  If anything, I'd write something from scratch, but I'd rather just contribute to someone else's Mega Man project as I'm spinning pleanty of plates at the moment. Procyon 20:09, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

Move lists category
Why did you put all the sub-pages of Move Lists in the category of the same name? Isn't it a bit redundant? --DrBob (Talk) 15:43, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, I couldn't think of a better way to provide a comprehensive way to present all of the available pages to a reader other than using the category. I'm open to suggestions.  The main reason I did the work that I did today was to break all of the subpages out of the M category that they were all stuck under.  At least now if someone wanted to look at, say, Raiden, they didn't have to look all the way at the end where he was, and their eye could jump to the big R so they could find him more easily.  Believe me, I would like to find a better way to present that whole mess.  Like, if you go to the Move Lists/Capcom page, that's more of what I had in mind.  The irony is that the Capcom page has no move lists on it :/ Procyon 16:45, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

Overcategoryization
Not exactly a part of the main convo, so I'm asking here. What exactly is overcategorization? -- Prod 09:20, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Simply providing too many categories for pages to fall under. Every new category that you create is another category that an author has to remember to potentially include their game under.  Inevitably, someone will forget to use a particular category, and then another user will potentially search for a game under this forgetten category and not see the game and assume the page doesn't exist.  Now your response may be, "That's OK, if someone forgets to use a particular category, we'll come in afterwards and add it ourselves," but think about all of the work you've just added to people like DrBob.  Where as, if we bolster and support the use of the categories that we have now, there's no way a user should not be able to find a page if it truly exists on this site.  I'm all for categorization, but I guess I'm a minimalist.  I'd rather see the bare minimum categories be used consistantly then try to create every conceivable category and see them used sporadically. Procyon 09:29, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * His point of adding it to the infobox kind of makes the problem with it pointless. We continue doing what we're doing, which is having an infobox on every guide main page, and the advantages just become slightly more.  Same effort, slightly more benefit (even if it's just POSSIBLY more benefit), why not? -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 21:52, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

Re: Inaccurate revisions
Garrett, I'll start out by admitting that I am being extremely sensitive about this subject, but a lot of the revisions that you've been doing appear to me as being a blanket action taken without thought or consideration. The Pinball nav thing, I can understand, but the Samurai Shodown/Samurai Shodown! redirect is inexcusable. If you had just taken a few moments to look at the infoboxes or the categories, you would have seen that they are distinct games. Furthermore, if you had looked at the history, DrBob made the same mistake previously, and I made that very correction once before. Please do some research before taking a similar course of action next time. Thank you. Procyon 16:04, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Hm. Well yes it was sort of a blanket action. I'd been using the completion categories to keep track of how many guides we had (the total was approaching 250, a nice round number worth celebrating), but Category:Games showed me that there were many more than that! Therefore I went to work adding nums as close as I could guess. In the case of Samurai Shodown I checked Wikipedia--"!" redirected to the main article, so I decided it was an alternate title (like Mega Man vs. Megaman) for yet another port. Some ports are done years later, so the date didn't clue me in either. GarrettTalk 19:40, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

Re: Street Fighter II Nav
Oh and I was meaning to ask you about the Street Fighter versions. I used Street Fighter II as the nav of its variants so that they could share the TOC and walkthrough of whatever info isn't in the move lists. Is this the best way to handle them? GarrettTalk 19:40, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh wow, that's actually an excellent consideration that I hadn't thought of. Unfortunately though, now that I've switched to using the Fighting Game Nav and the Move List Nav, I would regret losing that functionality that links the two pages together.  Alternatively, though I am loathe to borrow anything from WikiKnowledge, perhaps we could adopt their Street Fighter II navigation system.  Look at the bottom of this page to see what I mean.  As another alternative, we are making use of the Street Fighter category.  Procyon 19:44, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, another way would be to add a parent= variable to control the other links. That way the advantages of both types of template would remain, and the two fighting templates could be merged into one. Even better, the dropdown could also hide a series nav like WikiKnowledge's. GarrettTalk 20:07, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm cool with that Garrett, if you would like to oversee the change. I like the idea of merging them, I just couldn't figure out how to do it and keep the functionality. Now I realize that the variable "movelist" is only used in the Fighting Game Nav template, so obviously it can serve as the conditional between being a Fighting Game Nav and a Move Lists Nav. I'll leave it to you to make the changes to the templates, and then I'll follow behind and fix up the affected pages. (Man, I gotta clean up this page...) Procyon 20:09, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I can do that when I have the time. You can add the template any time, however; just call the merged template whatever you want and insert it like . Assuming you want gameplay-related links hidden when viewing the movelists, leave off the movelist= variable when adding the nav to cover/walkthrough pages. This way me writing the template doesn't hold you back from adding it. You could also decide what links you want the gameplay pages to show (Stages, Characters, etc.). GarrettTalk 20:48, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

Hi Garrett. I've gone ahead and merged the functionality of those two templates, so only Template:Fighting Game Nav remains. So any change that you would like to make only needs to be made on that template. While I understand what you mean by parent, I don't exactly understand how you intend to use it, so for the time being, I have not added it to any page. When you are ready, I would be happy to add the variable at that time so just let me know. Thanks. Procyon 21:29, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, will the walkthrough info fit on a single page nicely? If walkthroughs are likely to use subpages it would make sense for the nav to have links to common page names (such as Stages). The idea behind Parent was that variants like Street Fighter II Turbo and Super Street Fighter II could link to shared info pages (e.g. Street Fighter II/Stages), rather than each having their own stage descriptions. Like the current template, the links would default to the game= name if no parent was defined, and would be hidden if movelist was undefined. GarrettTalk 22:24, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * OK, it's late for me, so that's probably why I'm confused. I understand that you would like to establish a relationship between the original game Street Fighter II, and it's many derivatives like Champion Edition, Turbo, Super, and Super Turbo.  But if you look at the different home conversions that each one has spawned, they really are distinct titles in and of themselves.  So while I agree that there is a clear relationship between SF2 and all of the other titles, treating the different versions as "stages" of the parent doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Not the way that, say, Dinosaur Island is a stage of Super Mario World.  You know?  I thought you wanted to use the "parent" variable to show all of the titles in a series (like SFA1, 2, and 3).  If there's a way to do that, I'm all for it.  Procyon 23:03, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I've kinda skimmed this conversation (TLDR sorry), and I quickly visited the guides. Is there a reason why all the SF2/SSF2 games can't be put on the same page with a subpage going in-depth into their differences.  From what I can tell, all the guides are the same (except for the special moves in the the last one). -- Prod 23:44, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

If Street Fighter II Champion Edition is ok with you, I'm going to put it on all the MK and SF2 pages that currently use Fighting Game Nav
 * Yup, it looks good. I'll work on the combined "walkthrough"  I just wish we could change the text from "walkthrough" to "how to play", but I don't want to stir up another hornets nest. Procyon 16:06, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yea I agree, cause walkthrough doesn't give the right meaning. Perhaps the actual page can be named something else (Such as Street Fighter II/Game mechanics or something) and just have Walkthrough redirect there.  Each of the main pages will have the full toc (which will call it the actual name) so that link may not even be used. -- Prod 16:10, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

Name
As in the star, the raccoon genus, or the release group? -- Prod 23:51, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * lol, the raccoon genus. If I can't use Procyon, I sometimes use Lotor, or Plotor. ^_^  Procyon 07:58, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Hey, can you send me an email, I'd like to discuss something non-SW with you. (You can probably guess what it is from our previous IRC discussion :P) -- Prod (Talk) 12:54, 2 January 2007 (CST)

Layout change suggestion, would like your input
On the project boxes (stub, needscat, ect.), if you could give your input here it would be appreciated. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 10:25, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

Elements page
Why not just call it Controls & Characters (or 'and')-- Prod (Talk) 14:37, 23 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I dunno, it started as a reference to older gaming publications like Joystik and the Official Nintendo Player's Guide, as well as a now-worthless habit of keeping directory names small. Plus now I feel locked in to it in order to be consistant with all of the other guides I established.  :P  Procyon 14:48, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Joystick directions
Just a thought, but those hold letters, especially now on the 24x24 buttons, are extremely hard to read. It might be good to change the hold to just a circle with an "H" in it, instead of squished text. If you don't want to though, I'll probably get around to making SVG directions anyway, and will do that. --blendmaster 22:55, 30 October 2006 (CST)

Maps
Why aren't you using Scrolling map for the maps in Super Mario Bros.? --DrBob (Talk) 16:22, 13 November 2006 (CST)


 * Well, like I said in the Community issues, I liked the use of scrolling for something like World Maps (for games like Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc.), but for side scrolling, it would make annotating each section of the maps more difficult. I like the concept of having the maps broken up in to sections so that I can ensure that my comments apply only to the section that they appear under.  However, if all that you meant was that you would still like the Scrolling Map template applied to each section of the map (as a just in case), I would be happy to make that change.  Procyon 16:26, 13 November 2006 (CST)
 * Yes, I meant to apply the template to each section, as if you resize your browser to a smaller width, the images do overflow the content area, which is yucky. :-P Additionally, I may eventually get around to writing some JS which uses this template to allow easier annotation of images in that template, as I mentioned before. Please make your voice heard in Community issues if you think I should (because otherwise it probably won't get done ;-) ). --DrBob (Talk) 16:33, 13 November 2006 (CST)
 * I like the concept DrBob, but I don't have a grasp of how it would be executed. So I'd really be supporting you simply because you think it's a good idea and I'm behind you.  What I don't understand is how I as an end-user SW author would apply said annotations. Procyon 16:36, 13 November 2006 (CST)
 * I haven't really thought it through yet, so I don't know how an end-user SW author would apply said annotations. :-P --DrBob (Talk) 16:40, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Re: the typo on Contra
I just saw your complaint on Garrett's page about me accidently putting that Contra was released on the SMS. What he Hell? It's a damn typo caused by me misreading something. You try making a page about every version of every game in a series and not make a mistake. Don't just assume I don't do any reseach, because I did a quite a bit for those category pages, including using GameFAQs and Wikipedia. Besides this is a Wiki, which is designed so that anyone can correct things like that. Which you did, so there was really no need to get offended by it. Koweja 22:58, 20 November 2006 (CST)


 * I understand your concern. I was having a very bad week, and misdirected my frustration towards Garrett.  The matter has been concluded.  It won't happen again.  Procyon 09:11, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Userboxes near the middle
Ok, I understand how to put it on the right side now. Is there a way you can do it so the userbox is near the middle?

Pacman screen
No problem. I know what it's like :P -- Prod (Talk) 17:11, 7 December 2006 (CST)

GF
is this yours? -- Prod (Talk) 19:54, 17 December 2006 (CST)


 * lol, yeah, that's a blast from the past. I wrote that back in 1995, when the game first came out and I was in college.  I've always enjoyed making guides.  these are all of my contributions to gamefaqs.  Procyon 20:45, 17 December 2006 (CST)

Move Lists
Thanks for letting me know about that! But, how exactly do I go about creating movelists for the fighters? I tried doing it, but ... well, I'm lost. --Wittj 18:34, 30 December 2006 (CST)


 * Hi, Wittj again. I started editing the MK:A fighters moves.  Would you mind looking at this page, Move Lists/Midway Games/Baraka, just to see if I'm on the right track? --Wittj 22:31, 30 December 2006 (CST)

Capcom vs. SNK 2 Fighter Portraits
Did you find these somewhere or are you making them somehow? If you're making them, please note that what's currently being used for Ryu is actually Evil Ryu's protrait (straight smile, darker collar, darker eyes). --Notmyhandle 17:10, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Thank you Notmyhandle. I'll try to fix it, but I'm afraid that it won't be anytime soon.  I am creating them, and it's a time consuming process.  But I appreciate the heads up. Procyon 17:47, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * How are you doing it? I want to help. --Notmyhandle 18:20, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * How familiar are you with either Photoshop or GIMP? I'm using this screenshot as a source image.  But you have to create a path around the diamond border, and turn the path into a selection.  Then copy and paste it to a new image with a transparent background.  You should end up with something roughly 63x63 or 64x64 pixels big.  In GIMP, if you hold down Alt, you can drag the selection border around without having to recreate a new path, so you can copy another face.  What I failed to do with the first two images (and hence, will have to redo) is convert the image from RGB to indexed.  Then save the final result as a png and upload as "Portrait_CVS2_Name.png".  Then all you have to do is change the "No|Portrait" in the Moves Header to "CVS2|Name".  It's not an easy process if you want to do it right. Procyon 18:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Thanks for the pic, higher res than the GameCube ones (actually they use completely different icons, these are more like the game art rather than in game pictures of the characters). I don't have that much time right now, but I can take care of any leftovers when I get back later tonight.  (If you do none, then all the better, we can split the job). I just did E. Honda's, it came out at 59x59 pixels, where I cropped it to exactly just what was him without a border, then added a custom border since it isn't exact in the actual photo (they allow images to extend outside the little diamond).  Anyways, I think it looks good, tell me what you think about it. --Notmyhandle 19:01, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * That looks awesome Notmyhandle, great job. We can split it up, so that I will do everyone from Terry's row down to the bottom, and you can do everyone above Terry and up.  (I already finished much of the bottom two rows...)  But don't worry about Eagle, Balrog, and Athena.  I'll get them from another picture. Procyon 19:10, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Thanks, we're missing Ult. Rugal and Shin Akuma though... --Notmyhandle 19:17, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Got 'em covered ;) Procyon 19:24, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * In case you're wondering why some of your images look good on their page but not on the articles is because, like you said (c'mon Proc xD), they have to be either 63x63 or 64x64. --Notmyhandle 20:42, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * I know, some of them worked out and some didn't. The ones that I couldn't get from the original source ended up smaller, and I didn't think the padding would matter too much.  Turns out that it does.  I may be able to go back and repair the broken ones, unless you would like to do it.  Procyon 20:48, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * My pleasure. I'll have 'em done tonight.  Original source might be helpful though, if it's online (I haven't checked if I need to do anything beyond extend the border and fix the black border around the character).  --Notmyhandle 22:53, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Shin Akuma & Balrog done so far (Balrog needed extra work, part of him was cut off, had that extra strip of gold on his border). Quick question, I assume you're using GIMP?  If you also have photoshop, what indexed color settings do you use (GIMP too maybe)?  I've never worked with indexed (just RGB and CMYK) so this is a little new to me.
 * Really nice job on those Notmyhandle, the fix-ups came out great. I do use GIMP.  I start each image out in RGB, and then I just allow GIMP to assign the most optimized palette.  It calculates each one on an individual basis, so there's no one palette that I'm using for all images.  But indexing the image cuts the size down substantially.  It would probably have been easier for you to convert the images back to RGB to operate on them, and convert them to indexed when you are done, but the work is already completed, so this is probably a moot point. Procyon 07:54, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * Check out WP:Pngcrush for increased compressions. -- Prod (Talk) 10:10, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * Prod, they're already 6kb... I'm not wasting my time with that. --Notmyhandle 17:55, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Proc, for the portrait pics, should they simply cat'd with fighter portraits or category:screenshots as well, since thats where they come from... but yeah its not a screenshot so I see why they shouldn't be. I think I tagged one with category:screenshots, but say the word and I'll hunt it down. --Notmyhandle 18:16, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * I mean, I personally don't care too much, but eventually, someone will have to fix that. BTW, Prod's comment was just a suggestion, he was trying to be helpful.  Procyon 19:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * Of course it was, just doesn't apply at the moment. Anyways can you do some more of the guys?  I've done like 4 today and they take me forever cuz detailing the border correctly... yeah.  We need the SNK guys.  I'm still fixing the rest of yours and I'll do the rest of the Capcom guys. --Notmyhandle 19:55, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * lol, ok. I'll try to fill in the rest tonight.  Procyon 09:07, 11 January 2007 (CST)

MK:A move list solution
Hey what's up? I was just wondering about your thoughts on the Mortal Kombat: Armageddon movelist alternatives shown [] (or if you came up with your own alternative). Thanks... see ya around! --Antaios 20:18, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * Well, I for one am for the custom table, but I don't see why we can't modify the special move template to add additional columns like that. --Notmyhandle 20:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * Here is my thought about this particular problem. I don't know if it can actually be implemented, but I would actually prefer that the moves not be listed by specific controller button, but by some icon that represents the mapping.  The truth is people can remap their controllers, and though it's less likely with a game like MK:A, representing each move with an attack icon solves both the remapping problem, and the need to list moves twice, which is purely redundant.  I realize MK:A is a little unorthodox in the labels it uses for attacks (attack1, attack2, etc.) but special MK:A icons for those attacks can be made and used, and the move list would be correct regardless of platform.  I'll stop there for now and wait for your thoughts. Procyon 09:07, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yeah I agree, I like the way move lists for Capcom and SNK games are. --Notmyhandle 21:11, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * I think that's a perfect idea! Good job thinking of it... now we just have to implement it. --Antaios 21:31, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Series deletions
I perfectly agree with your moving all the stuff from Category:Super Mario to Category:Mario, makes far more sense. However, I think that some of the others warrant some discussion. Mario RPG, Paper Mario and Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door are all a sub-series on their own (though it's somewhat difficult to place them all in either Category:Paper Mario or Category:Mario RPG due to the names, though they are all RPGs). One that I feel is definitely necessary is Category:Mega Man Battle Network. It's got 5 iterations of games for it already, and it's a significantly different type of game than the original Category:Mega Man games. I'm not too sure about the Category:Mario and Luigi series as I don't know the games that were part of it. -- Prod (Talk) 00:19, 13 January 2007 (CST)
 * Hi Prod. Those moves were a result of a discussion that I had with Echelon, but I may have interpreted his suggestion too liberally.  The idea was if I want to see all of the games that Mario is in, and I look in the Mario category, why don't I see Paper Mario?  The answer, of course, is that it's in the sub-category.  But I might be looking in the Mario category to see all of the games that Mario appeared in.  So perhaps the games that I moved belong in the Mario category and their respective sub-categories that I removed, which is easy to remedy.  That way, I can see all of the games that Mario appeared in (including the Paper Mario games) or I can see just the Paper Mario games.  I'll restore those sub-categories. P.S. Did you ever get my email so that you could email me back?Procyon 07:17, 13 January 2007 (CST)
 * Actually I was thinking the same thing. However, the question arises, what happens if the person wants to see only the main series? For the moment, what you suggest is the best option I think, but I wonder if there is a better solution. And yes, I did get your email...then I realized I haven't used Yahoo in Ages.  I'm trying to get the yahoo on msn thing working right now, so hopefully I'll show up soon.  (Thanks for reminding me, I've had a lot on my plate recently). -- Prod (Talk) 10:30, 13 January 2007 (CST)
 * If we really want to categorize platform mario games into their own category then we can and should. Look, it's a defining separation.  Perhaps we could even go and create mario sub pages defined by genre (sports, platform, rpg, misc or whatever for those such as Mario Party). This would be a good idea, so long as we have no regrets to storage space.  We need to define what we want at StrategyWiki - more cats for ease of use, or generalization. --Notmyhandle 01:35, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Arcade Button creation request
Hey Proc, Image:Arcade-Stick-Rightleft.png exists, but LeftRight doesn't; I need it for Blank's move list for Capcom vs. SNK 2 so could you just flip it and save for me? Thanks. --Notmyhandle 23:15, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * Uh. Cancel that; I just realized what I was seeing was wrong...  --Notmyhandle 23:17, 19 January 2007 (CST)