Talk:Street Fighter II Turbo

SF2
Why not just link to the SF2 page, and have a section mentioning Turbo, cause it says they are the same game. -- Prod 23:28, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Apparantly there are different move sets also. It shoudl link to SF2 early on of course, but it's a stand-alone game so it probably deserves it's own page. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 01:03, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Procyon and I discussed one solution at User talk:Procyon. Briefly, the games would have separate covers but share subpages and any identical info. GarrettTalk 01:20, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * That is a good solution. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 09:07, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I know this has been a hot topic as of late. Here's how I see it.  To put it in more modern terms, the relationship between SF2T and SF2 is the same as the relationship between Super Mario 64 and SM64 DS.  They each should get seperate guides, but the game which is an upgrade only points out where it is different, and should refer the reader to the original game for everything else.  And that's pretty much what I've done for SF2CE, SF2T, SSF2, and SSF2T.  Is it the best method?  Probably not, but a reader who is dying to know more about SF2T is probably already aware that it's an upgrade from SF2.  So they might find the SF2T page and low and behold, find out everything that's different from SF2 as well as being provided a link back to SF2 to find out more.  On the other hand, on the off chance that a reader is not aware of the relationship to SF2, then if the SF2T page was burried in the SF2 article, they would not know where to find it.  (I know, it's highly unlikely, but I'm just saying.)  I'm not sure how else to handle this situation any better than that.  Procyon 09:09, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

Do me one favor everybody. Heaven forbid we should actually read each other's work and actually learn something (I'm trying to be funny...), but please read the Street Fighter II, Champion Edition, Turbo, Super, and Super Turbo pages and take a look at how I've tried to format and arrange each game. Then come back and lets talk about specific changes that can be made because we're all tossing out ideas without specifying how to apply any of them. If you take a few minutes to look at the work that established, it will be easier to carry on a conversation about how best to alter them. Thanks guys. Procyon 09:15, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

Re: Street Fighter II Nav
User_talk:Procyon (Sorry Prod, just trying to save space)
 * I've kinda skimmed this conversation (TLDR sorry), and I quickly visited the guides. Is there a reason why all the SF2/SSF2 games can't be put on the same page with a subpage going in-depth into their differences, or having a subpage for each game.  From what I can tell, all the guides are the same (except for the special moves in the the last one). About Procyon's concern that they won't find the information if it's buried, don't bury the information.  Put the sub-pages in the |custom field. -- Prod 09:54, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * The simple answer to your question is you shouldn't sub-page them because that would be wrong. But if it were as simple as that, we wouldn't disagree, so I will do my best to present my arguments.  For one thing, if SSF2 was sub-paged to SF2, SSF2 would not appear in the Arcade, SNES, and Genesis categories as distinct releases.  Someone browsing the SNES category would only see SF2 and might be under the impression that SSF2 has been omitted.  Secondly, the guides are not the same.   Each one points out different changes that occur as the series evolves.  The move lists between each game, although the same for a majority of moves, differ and grow from one iteration to the next.  I've had experience pooling moves from several games together in to one list (I was trying to write a book on the subject at one point,) and I got a lot of feedback from hardcore players that they don't want to have to decipher a chart in order to determine which move is available to a character in a particular version.  (The single exception to this is Street Fighter Alpha 3 since the X-ism, A-ism, and V-ism standard is well understood.)


 * There are three solutions to this problem. I'll break them down here:


 * 1) Every game has a full description of the controls and rules, even if 90% of this content is the same for each game.
 * 2) Each game has it's own page, with the bulk of the shared material on the original game's page.
 * 3) The original game is the only page (and thus the only categorized game) and revisions are sub-pages.
 * Right now, 2 is what we have, and I chose to do it this way to maximize the benefit of having each game appear in the appropriate categories, and cutting down on the amount of text stored in the database. Number 1 has the obvious flaw of redundant information, and Number 3 has two flaws in my opinion.  The first is the obvious lack of categorization, but the second is, if a reader wants to learn about SSF2 or SF2T, why do you want to force them to wade through SF2 info before they get to the information they are looking for?


 * I know we could go around and around on this issue. Perhaps Prod it would be helpful if you explained your reasoning for why you don't like the current set up.  Then it might be easier to discuss alternatives. Procyon 10:16, 11 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I know, I just can't shut up really... I used to be a big fan of consolidation, but at some point I changed and the way I see doing things properly, is if Capcom released distinct revisions of SF2 games, then each release should be accounted for as a distinct page. Now, if I was really crazy, I would insist on having a seperate page for all of the clones of a single revision, so in the case of SSF2, I would make a page for:


 * Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers (World 930911)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers (US 930911)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers (Asia 931005)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers (Asia 930914)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers (Japan 931005)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers (Japan 930911)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers (Japan 930910)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The Tournament Battle (World 931119)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The Tournament Battle (World 930911)
 * Super Street Fighter II: The Tournament Battle (Japan 930911)
 * Super Street Fighter II Turbo (World 940223)
 * Super Street Fighter II Turbo (US 940323)
 * Super Street Fighter II Turbo (US 940223)
 * Super Street Fighter II Turbo (Asia 940223)
 * Super Street Fighter II X: Grand Master Challenge (Japan 940223)
 * But even I'm not crazy enough to believe that this is the right thing to do. I only point it out for illustration's sake that I do draw the line at a certain point.  Procyon 10:23, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Actually I was waiting for a reply before going into details (that way I only have to justify relevant parts). About categorization, please refer to your solution.  For implementation of your 2nd concern: Move all the current guide pages to Street Fighter 2/Super Street Fighter 2,  but have them redirect to the SF2 main page.  The infoboxes will also need to be merged on the main page (multiple solutions for that problem).  With a standard AGN (all game nav) you can have links to all the other games on the TOC (or put them all in the custom tag) so they will be easily accessible.  Move lists for each guide go in their custom tag.  The walkthrough for each page will link to the SF2 guide due to AGN and the shared TOC.
 * For justification, I understand your point of view of doing things, but as DrBob said "people get confused if the means of navigation changes from page to page". For most games, the overall organization is obvious, and there is the standard All Game Nav at the top.  As they are, the guides don't have either.  There are some other reasons (like all the subpages feel empty) but that's the main reason. -- Prod 10:41, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I had no part in the River City Ransom page, but it clearly illustrates my preference for arranging distinct games under their own master page (even though no one has created the RCR EX page yet). As for changing the means of navigation from page to page, I specifically developed the Fighting Game Nav for that very reason.  It's a marginal change in content, but the look is now consistent with every other page with the AGN.  Merging the Infoboxes in my opinion is a HORRIBLE idea, since different iterations of the series have been ported to different systems.  You're going to make the infobox scroll halfway down the article.  I am entirely against sub-paging one official title under another.  If you're going to do that, then I would have to insist that you subpage Super Mario 64 DS under Super Mario 64 (which also seems entirely wrong.)
 * A navigation system can just as easily be added to the top of each page that would solidify the connection between the five SF2 games. If you are concerned with the amount of material (or lack thereof) that could easily be remedied, and would only further differentiate these games, making it more apperant that these are distinct titles.  So maybe that's what I should do.  Procyon 10:55, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * My main problem is with the content of the AGN. I like having a TOC and walkthrough page.  It's not about layout but content.  The point with RCR was categorization, they both share the same main page and it seems to work fine.  the SM64/DS is a separate issue.  There are major new gameplay elements (minigames, more stars, etc) that differentiate the game.  I haven't played it but I'd also assume controls and the such would be different.  I'm going to leave this for a while, so that other people can respond.  That nav you just added is very helpful :). -- Prod 11:26, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

SF2 series nav
Well, I've tried to create something that would serve as a bridge between all of the SF2 games, but I can't eliminate that gap between the FGN and the series nav, and I'm just too frustrated and aggrivated to do anything about it right now. Prod, if you're going to make these changes, I can't stop you. But just realize that you will be introducing a practice that expressly goes against established precedent for this site. Sub paging unique game titles, whether they are upgraded versions, or simply tweaked versions, is not the proper way to go, and I'm entirely against it. There must be another solution. Procyon 11:20, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I fixed the gap problem. Procyon 11:24, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Stop getting worked up then....I haven't made any changes. This is about discussion and concensus. -- Prod 11:28, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm cool, I just had lunch, so I feel better. To respond to your point above, I started this thread for that reason.  I agree with you, I too like having a Table of Contents and a Walkthrough link, but I feel that they are best applied only when appropriate.  There are some games currently on the site, and many yet to be added, where a multi-page format simply does not serve a good purpose.  Pinball is about as good an example as I can think of.  Pinball will never need much more information what's there currently, and if you were to break it up in to sub-pages then... talk about sparse.  I would never claim that all guides should be one page anymore than I would claim that all guides should be multiple pages.  There is a poorly defined line somewhere, but I can't define it. But given the fact that there will likely be more single page guides, I think the consistancy of nav should be in the form of its look, not its contents.  And that right there is the focus of our disagreement.  Procyon 12:30, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh, good. Well, I'm going to try something with your Fighting nav.  If it doesn't work out, revert it (as Douglas Addams says "Don't Panic!").  It should solve my complaints, and hopefully won't bother you (though it will be specific to only SF2). -- Prod 12:47, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Check out the FGN on Street Fighter II and Street Fighter II Turbo (notice the links). Btw, I'm on IRC at the moment. -- Prod 12:58, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

Aftermath
OK, let's review the revisions that just took place and see how we all feel about them (pardon my own use of third person):
 * Prod altered the All Game Nav to include the parent variable, as originally suggested by Garrett.
 * Prod replaced the Fighting Game Nav inclusions on the main game pages with the updated All Game Nav, pointing each game revision to the parent game SF2.
 * Procyon broke the SF2 page in to two parts, the intro (expanded) and put the rest of the page (Cast, Control, and Rules) in the "Walkthrough" page.
 * Procyon took any changes and alterations to Cast and Rules and inserted them in the common (SF2) "Walkthrough".
 * Due to Prod's alteration, all game pages now point to the common SF2 Walkthrough as the "How to Play" for every game.
 * Prod created the SF2 TOC, Procyon altered the look. Prod and Procyon inserted the SF2 TOC on each page and removed the SF2 series template that Procyon had created.

I think that about sums it up... the work of two "Pro"s... Procyon 16:51, 11 October 2006 (CDT)