StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal/2006/April

Sidebars
I think that a prudently limited variety of sidebars could be useful in adding to the readability of StrategyWiki. I've added a trial page to display and discuss them. Template::Sidebar2 is based on a design by Mr Wallet, and I thought that it looked pretty cool. --echelon talk 19:44, 21 April 2006 (PDT)
 * What you have there looks really good, and I agree that we need to fix the readability of SW insome articles. Both designs look very nice and pretty much do exactly what the descriptions say. Cosmo 08:54, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Merge system pages?
Right now we've got, for instance, Xbox 360 and Category:Xbox 360. If they were merged it would make a lot more sense, as you wouldn't be going back and forth between the two, and it would also promote the page being less like a Wikipedia article and more like an intro into that system's guides. Thoughts? GarrettTalk 23:54, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Now that MediaWiki:Bluecloud.css is enabled, we can make the expanding category we discussed in IRC a possibility. Would that require any additional modifications to the hard copy of the theme's css, though? --echelon talk 23:41, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Diff reader
I assume this is just for the default style (at least I hope so), but the "diff" reader is really hard to make out. Could there be some kind of highlighting scheme for that? Like wikipedia now has? It'd seem like something that was just missed by whoever made this style, and it would be extremly useful to have, thanks Mason11987 17:56, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Yeah, that's a slight flaw in the skin. Until a MediaWiki: page is assigned to it it isn't easily fixed. I told echelon about that so I assume he's going to get that done at some point. And then it should be easy to work out how Wikipedia does it and just re-shade it blue or something. GarrettTalk 20:00, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * MediaWiki:Bluecloud.css is now imported by the default theme. --echelon talk 23:38, 24 April 2006 (PDT)
 * Nice, thanks, different styles are cool, but I like having something I'm more used to as an option :). Mason11987 12:27, 25 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Fixed the diff viewer. It was missing from the css file completely--what a huge feature to go without! --echelon talk 23:47, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Haha, Awesome, thanks again, much easier this way, that's being responsive.


 * Great. You should do the same for JS; that would allow easy addition of tweaks like that show-hide template. However the redlinks are now... red, rather than the previous purplish tone. Is this deliberate? GarrettTalk 23:51, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Those would be a huge plus to have for a strat guide. Mason11987 12:27, 25 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Is the javascript now working properly? I imagine we can introduce all kinds of useful scripts into the guides. We're not just limited to the show-hide template. The same now goes for CSS classes. --echelon talk 13:42, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

The Photoshop Wiki
haha, I love making new sections...

It appears that when I set my style to Monobook to try to get over that issue mentioned above I get an image that makes me believe I am on the photoshop wiki...this is quite ood.

http://strategywiki.net/w/skins/MonoBook/Header.jpg

That's what I see. Another thing to note. And if there is a more appropriate place for me to list things like this then Community issues, let me know. Mason11987 18:00, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Heh, yeah, I already pointed that out on IRC. :) I think echelon uploaded it by accident, or something. GarrettTalk 19:57, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Total accident!! --echelon talk 23:18, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Fixed. :) --echelon talk 23:41, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Perfect, tsk tsk for style "borrowing" lol. Just playing.  Thanks for the fix. Mason11987 12:27, 25 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Actually, the person who did both the designs is a good friend of mine. He just never got around to launching the other wiki, which was going to be his project. --echelon talk 13:38, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Proposition
I propose that all of the Game System, Game Genre, and Game Company categories contain ONLY games that fall within those categories, but they may also contain subcategories, such as Companies withing console categories, although that may or may not be a good idea. that would basically mean that then Xbox Article would not be in Category:Xbox. Where would it be you ask? It should be the category itself, it should have some text about the console, but not a large amount (people don't come to a game guide wiki to hear about when a console was made after all. A "for more information" link could be in the category page itself that links to it's wikipedia page.  This way we don't end up getting "Hardware", or "Specs" or "Xbox Live" articles within the Xbox categories (and similar analogies to other categories) when it really should just be a listing of game guides.

Furthur more, although this may be more extreme. I think that there should be no article in the main namespace that is not a game guide besides the Main Page. Everything about Strategywiki should be in the StrategyWiki namespace, and anything else should just be small amounts of text describing categories.

I think this would allow the wiki to even moreso focus on what it needs to do and I personally would have no problem doing a bunch of the manual moving (and redirecting of articles like Xbox to articles like Category:Xbox). It just seems odd that there is a list of 20 games for guides, then an "Xbox" article.

This may be not worth the effort, but I think it would really be beneficial for the site, but then again, I've only been here a very short time, so maybe this has been talked about and I have no idea. If so, let me know ;) -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 12:57, 25 April 2006 (PDT)


 * As an example, I turned articles like Microsoft, into Category:Microsoft System, and put all of M$ systems inside of that category, that way you can see info on microsoft, but the major purpose is to get you to the game you are looking for. It's not about M$, but about the fact that they make systems, that have games, that have guides, that peopel are looking for.  If I went to far with this, let me know, I can undo it without too much effort.  If you like the idea, then we can change things like Xbox into Category:Xbox the same way. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 13:20, 25 April 2006 (PDT)
 * A good plan, but isn't the "System" part a little obselete (i.e. use simply Category:Microsoft)? GarrettTalk 13:46, 25 April 2006 (PDT)
 * Actually, that is a much better idea, and I will change whatever hasn't been. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 15:55, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Wikibooks bans game guides!
Check out this Staff Lounge posting. After much debate and indecision, the final decision has been made. I've put us forward as a potential new host (and, really, it's only between us or the less-shiny Gameinfo). This may be just the kick-start StrategyWiki needs, but it is a LOT of content to suddenly acquire. Thoughts? GarrettTalk 03:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Wow! Seriously wow! This is probably the best shot we've gotten so far in gaining support. We really absolutely need to use this to our advantage. It must be stressed that our wiki is already geared towards game guides and that would be a more natural home for Wikibook's guides than Wikia's Gameinfo. We have a much more polished presentation and are 100% tailored to guides. Not only do we stand the chance to gain a lot of new content in this, but we also stand the chance to gain a lot of new supporters! This is so excellent! --echelon talk 04:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)
 * Thanks to this move, I showed up :). I'm hoping to help in that transition (I did quite a bit to SM64 and Super Mario world as well as the FFVII guides there :). Mason11987 17:46, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * After checking this out, I wonder what would be the best way to handle this. We could simply copy and paste the pages over, but then we lose the page histories. It was also suggested to do a database dump then combine it with the StrategyWiki database. That wouldn't break anything, would it? Are there tools to do that elegantly? What other pros and cons can you think of, and which would be the best route in your opinion? --echelon talk 04:35, 22 April 2006 (PDT)


 * (this problem has been resolved, see Wikibooks Import List)

I'm a wikibooks user (from the MapleStory book) and I've been looking around this site a bit considering that it is one of the main choices of where to move that book. It looks like it could become very popular. I was looking at that page you moved over as a test and I'm slightly confused as to what to look for. It was also mentioned that images had to be moved manually (discussed lower down). What about templates and talk pages? About the wikibooks tech guys not wanting to enable history exporting, perhaps they would be willing to take a list of pages that need to be dumped and send the file(s) directly. I have put up a note on the wikibooks MapleStory talk page about moving the book here. If it is decided to move the book here, what would need to be done to make the transfer as quick and easy as possible? Sorry about this post being essentially a bunch of random disorganized thoughts, but I hope it makes sense. -- Prod 22:29, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
 * The above discussion was rather out of date. Since that time I found a solution. I just take the latest dump, run it against a list using MWDumper, and then upload the result via Special:Import. It's only images that have to be done manually, everything else (even the image description pages) is included in the dump. All I'll need is a list of all the pages, templates, and image description pages you want imported. MWDumper automatically extracts matching talk pages, so you don't need to worry about listing those. GarrettTalk 00:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)
 * OK. At the moment, there is still a bit of discussion about where to move the MapleStory book.  If it does move here, where would you like the list of pages that need to be moved? -- Prod 11:07, 4 May 2006 (PDT)
 * Wikibooks Import List/MapleStory would do nicely. You can easily get a list of pages from Special:Allpages over there, it's only the templates and images I can't easily track down using that method. GarrettTalk 13:46, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

How to transfer
Well, as I've said on IRC the Wikibooks tech guys have refused to re-enable history exporting. However today I found MWDumper, a simple command-line tool that (among other functions) can extract pages from an XML dump based on a filter list. It should be easy to make a full list of pages and then let it crawl through the database dump over lunch or something. After some tinkering it works perfectly. The only slight shortcoming is that the filter file is case sensitive, so it skips anything that has an incorrect capital. GarrettTalk 04:09, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

OK, check out Wikibooks Import List. This is a list I'm gradually compiling in a format MWDumper can understand. Images will have to be handled manually. GarrettTalk 04:49, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


 * I see that you are importing the San Andreas Wikibook here. So far I think I have moved about 70% of the material to Strategy Wiki. I know that it's quite important to have the histories of each page but I have edited each page as I moved it (added the bottom navigation, editing spelling/typos and sometimes changed formatting). This would take a long time to get all the pages back to the standard they are now. Is there anyway to just move the history of each page and keep the edited page intact?


 * I also see that you have copied the first page of the San Andreas guide from Wikibooks and inserted it instead of the previous front page with the reason "moving related sites down, our own content takes priority". Just wondering what that meant because the first page was only our content and had an info box and proper naivgation? Jackhynes 13:48, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


 * That message was because I imported the San Andreas page as a test, forgetting we already had it! Because my edit over there was slightly newer it took precedence. Importing doesn't overwrite anything though. Any time a Wikibooks edit is newer it's easy to open the history and revert to a revision there (as I've just done, now you've pointed that out). GarrettTalk 14:15, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Cheers Garett, that was just what I wanted to here - now I hope all the pages are older! Else I'm gonna have a lot of checking the newer edits then reverting! Jackhynes 14:29, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Categorization
As can be seen by anyone who is watching the RC, I am a fan of categorization. I think it would be best if we had 3 root categories for the actual content here which will be interconnected. Category:Game System, Category:Game Genre, and Category:Game Company. They'll be connected because some game companies will make game systems (and therefore the game system will also be a subcategory of the game company who makes it [NES is a subcat of nintendo for example]). Now, we also have a lot of uncategorized categories like VTech or Commodore (and yes, I do realize they will almost never be used) which are "console makers". I'd like to categorize them, as well as the nintendo, sega, sony, M$, and other console makers into some category which would encompass all game system makers. I don't know what to call it though, so I thought I'd throw it out there. Console makers isn't really applicable because I want people who only made handhelds to be on there too, maybe "system makers" but that sounds retarded. So what are your thoughts? -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 10:43, 27 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Sounds like a good plan. But again, why not just System, Genre and Company? Since most system makers produce games for their own platforms that could be all-encompassing... of course it could then have Game Company and Platform Company as subcategories, but then you're back to the retarded name problem. :) GarrettTalk 14:26, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
 * Ah, that's a good idea...I think that would be better. Before I go changing everything again, do you think it'd be best to call the categories "Category:System" or "Category:Systems" and so on for the other two? -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 07:02, 28 April 2006 (PDT)
 * Hmm... so far we've got singular for genres (e.g. Category:FPS), but in this case I'd say it might as well be plural. Either way it's a very nitpicky thing. GarrettTalk 19:10, 30 April 2006 (PDT)
 * True, just figured I'd throw it out there :). -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 08:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Copying images from Wikibooks, Wikipedia
I recently used User:File Upload Bot (Kernigh) to copy 80 screenshots that I made for NetHack and originally submitted to Wikimedia Commons for use in Wikibooks. Currently I have both a download bot and upload bot for MediaWiki. Thus I simply give the list of files to the download bot and have it automatically download the images and their descriptions from Commons, then give the folder of images to the upload bot and have it automatically upload the images to StrategyWiki. (I also have the option of editing the image descriptions between the download and upload.) Earlier today, my bot took over both Special:Recentchanges and Special:Newimages.

I suppose that I could point my download bot at Wikibooks or Wikipedia, and use it if someone needs large numbers of game images moved from either wiki. (Most game images are fair use, so they are not on Commons.) I might also be able to make the perl scripts (my hacked version of Commons:File upload service/Script) available. --Kernigh 20:16, 30 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Actually, so far I've come across very few images. It seems NetHack is by far the most heavily illustrated. But thanks for the offer, and if I come across something major I may call on you then. :) GarrettTalk 19:28, 1 May 2006 (PDT)


 * Have you looked at the MapleStory monsters list? I think that qualifies as major :P -- Prod 21:54, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
 * Whoah. Yeah. I was intending to do the MMOs last for exactly this reason. GarrettTalk 00:44, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Comments from a Wikibooks User
Your flagship page, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, has a few formatting issues-I would make the introductory page the table of contents, or perhaps combine it with your little intro page, as it is you have to scroll back up to the top to navigate anywhere, same thing applies to the walkthrough, forcing them to navigate to a new page is kind of annoying.

I've worked on the FF6, Chrono Trigger, FF7, and Quest for Glory wikibooks, the first three are fairly complete content-wise but could use some more media and tables to flesh them out.

If the Wikibooks are going to be exiled here, we'll have to see what we can do. The advantage wikibooks had was that it's a sister project to wikipedia and a natural place to look for more detailed information or for people wanting to add to the general body of knowledge. At the moment, your website is the second google hit for strategy wiki, behind an encyclopedia entry for the site itself. If you want to attract people you'll need a lot more content, particularly on recent games, and attract people willing to contribute over the wiki format.

It'll probably take some advertisement and cross-polination across all the other sources for game guides to try to promote this format. The best thing you could do would be to tie it in to Wikipedia directly to redirect people looking for more info, but that may not be likely.--BigCow 13:53, 25 April 2006 (PDT)


 * So you're suggesting Template:Header Nav be repeated at the bottom? That's a good idea (although it will need some formatting changes, or possibly even a separate closing template). As for advertisement, once the Wikibooks content is in full lockdown both its pages and Wikipedia's will be changed to link to mirror(s). Right now this is the only wiki I'm aware of that's intending to fork the content (barring complete forks like Wikibooks.net, which will likely purge their copies at some point anyway) which means we'll get all the incoming Wikipedia attention. The only downside is we don't get a pretty sidebox in the external links section. GarrettTalk 16:38, 25 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Not only that, but the idea of an intro page to get to your content is an annoying one. The introduction pages for the guides themselves and the walkthrough pages don't really serve a purpose, and should just be merged with the table of contents so they can navigate whereever they want after clicking a guide.--BigCow 09:47, 26 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Less clicks are always better. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 11:46, 26 April 2006 (PDT)


 * The idea of the cover page was that it was more like a print strategy guide, but yeah I guess it's mostly for looks and not usefulness... still, this is a major enough change it will need a vote or something, or at least some more feedback from others. GarrettTalk 16:14, 26 April 2006 (PDT)
 * A page in a strategy guide is very different than a page on the web. A chapter in a strategy guide could be a single web page, since a web page can span multiple pages of text and images. Your walkthrough pages actually do a good job with this, but you don't need an intro page before you see the actual content, you should scroll down to see the table of contents rather than clicking through it.


 * I'd be up for putting it to a vote or getting some more feedback, particularly since you want to use this book as the standard.--BigCow 17:53, 26 April 2006 (PDT)


 * I have to agree with BigCow. So far, the intro pages only cause me trouble and discontent, and I agree they serve no purpose other than looking pretty. If we are going to become the standard, then we need to focus on getting results and looking pretty at the same time, whereas the intro pages only serve for the latter. I highly doubt that anyone is going to save the entire guide in .pdf format and print it, so cover pages are rather pointless. I agree that a vote should be made, sooner the better. Cosmo 12:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Anyone with the authority or ability to do this? The longer we wait, the more has to be changed.--BigCow 12:06, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

Screenshots
What is the situation on screenshots. For one reason or another I know wikipedia doesn't like having a lot of screens in a page, but I think having plenty (although not a huge amount) of images in a guide is extremly useful. Is there some legal restriction which caused wikipedia's stance which is related to the GNU FDL license that you share with them? Or is it a site-specific decision?

I'm just wondering because I recently saw about a dozen (small) GTA images uploaded which will be used on a guide I presume, and I was thinking that I might want to break out my Super Mario World and throw in screenshots for the tricky parts of the game, and that's just one example. Since FFVII will probably be imported I won't be able to do a lot with it (although I did have several edits to it at wikibooks :)), but there are a bunch of other games I already saw that I could add to. And maybe I can help you guys structure the site a little better?  I've had experience on a SporeWiki.com where I am a Bureaucrat, and when I first arrived there I completly revamped the organization scheme, so I think I can helpful in that as well.  But I'm particularly interested on your ideas on screenshots, so let me know. Mason11987 17:55, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Wikipedia's screenshot restriction was centered around the very touchy concept of "fair" use for educational purposes. A strategy guide is generally considered stronger fair use than an encyclopedia as the whole work is basically showing how cool the game in question is. As long as the screenshots have a clear purpose and aren't just to look pretty it should be fine. Anyway it's good to have others with experience around. Besides, I don't see any company complaining against fansites hosting quadrillions of images... :) GarrettTalk 19:53, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


 * Awesome, thanks for clearing that up :). Mason11987 12:27, 25 April 2006 (PDT)


 * I'd definitely think that as long as the screenshot is relevant, and you don't overdo it, it'll fall under Fair Use. Hell, people have even done video walkthroughs - those're what, 24 screenshots per second? --aniki21 03:14, 27 April 2006 (PDT)


 * As I have come to realize, the only reason "fair use" is a problem at Wikipedia is because of the GFDL's restrictions on fair use. A Creative Commons or BSD project would probably render this problem moot. --echelon talk 11:17, 14 May 2006 (PDT)


 * Although this isn't directly connected with screenshots, I wonder if anyone would mind using their singled out images of manuals and/or boxes? Does credit need to be given in the first place, despite the fair use clause? To top it off, the copyright of the original image would belong to the company (whom as Garrett pointed out would be the least likely ones to mind), yet can any fan site legitimately claim that the box art that they've scanned is somehow theirs? If not legally, what would a gentleman do? --theEXIT talk 00:02, 17 Mat 2006 (CT)

Input needed
Input needed in three places: Category talk:Nintendo DS, Category talk:Game Boy Advance, and Category talk:Game Boy. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 17:02, 25 April 2006 (PDT)