StrategyWiki talk:Move lists project

Character pages (again)
Hi y'all...

I think we all agree that the current character page layout is not perfect. I admit that it is a lot better than the previous one, but I still think it could be better. Since there's been a little discussion over the last days I've tried to come up with a compromise to adress the topices that came up.

If you have some time please check out Sandbox/AOFTest. So far, only the Ryo character page is active (and on that page only the AOF game specific page works), but I think you'll get the idea.

With this system, we could link all characters on every appearances to Companyname/Characters/Charactername. This page has all the games that character appeared in as a header, so that you can easily jump back to the game where you came from. If the user is (for example) only interested in Ryo's AOF storyline, there's a direct link to the series specific sub-page, where we keep all the moves and Fight order and Costumes and so on (those are basicly the sub pages that exist at gamename/characters/Charactername right now). This System allows us to create our own subpage system (as we need them), so that (for example) a character that appears in KOF98,KOF99 and KOF 2003 doesn't need three separate pages anymore with very little information on each page (as it is right now); but characters such as Kyo, that appear in every KOF game and have 3 very different storylines or movesets throughout the series, can get devided pages for Orochi, NESTS and Ash saga. It would also help in that we only have to write the basic data once at one single place (since the basic Character Information usually stays the same for all appearances).

I know that I'm completely mis-using Header Nav, but as I said it's just an example, the real pages should get their own header nav type.

keep up the great work :) --Bmuig 06:01, 20 January 2008 (CST)(talk)

Improvements to the Fighting Game Guide Layout
Original post updated by WretchedSpawn 19:23, 21 January 2008 (CST)

Hi all. I've been working to improve the organization and navigation for fighting game guides and I've created a sample page for Street Fighter II at Sandbox/SF2Test.

Some of the problems with the current organization of the fighting game guides as I see it are:
 * 1) Content that the StrategyWiki Guide tells us should go in the Getting Started section is instead getting dumped on the Walkthrough page and the walkthrough links in the TOC and continue box are simply being renamed to How to Play. I'm assuming that this first came into practice because the Walkthrough section is a mandatory part of the header, there's usually no reason to have a walkthrough in a fighting game, and authors didn't want the dead Walkthrough links showing up in their headers so they started using Walkthrough like a Getting Started page. Not only is this inconsistent with guides in other genres, but the Walkthrough still shows up in the header except that now it has 2 different names on the same page, both Walkthrough and How to Play.
 * 2) Custom headers aren't being utilized enough throughout StrategyWiki. Using the custom header field to add links to the key sections of a guide makes navigation a lot easier and it's also more aesthetically pleasing (at least to my eyes) since there's less white space in the header.
 * 3) The current method of putting links to all the games in a series underneath the How to Play heading implies that they are links to How to Play pages for those specific games and not links to the game's main pages.

I've made the following deviations from the current standard fighting game layout:
 * Moved the contents of the Walkthrough page to the Getting Started page where they should be.
 * Changed the How to Play links into Getting Started links which is more inline with the rest of SW.
 * Added links to the Getting Started, Characters, and Secrets and Codes sections to the page headers.
 * Added Controls, How to Play, and Walkthrough underneath the Getting Started section in the TOC.
 * Moved the list of different games in the series out from under How to Play and instead put them under the heading Games in this Series in the TOC.

All of the major sections exist and I've added Chun-Li's page so you can get a feel for navigating all sections of the guide using the updated header and TOC. The views expressed in this post are entirely my own so please let me know what your thoughts are on this issue. --WretchedSpawn 23:50, 20 January 2008 (CST)
 * Firstly, I'll give a disclaimer that I haven't been following this conversation closely, and I'm not really a fighting game guide person, so I apologise if I'm wildly incorrect here. My first thought is that you're using the |num parameter of Header Nav on pages which shouldn't have it (such as Chun-Li's character page) — it's for the main page of a guide only, as it includes the guide in the correct guide completion category. Secondly, why can't you use the normal HN, have all the contents of the Walkthrough in the Getting Started section where they should be, and then write a little walkthrough on how to start a game for the Walkthrough section, similarly to what's proposed here. Such a section could cover any options there are for new games, as well as perhaps advising on some good opening moves, or character combinations. (It's here that my lack of knowledge of fighting games lets me down; I apologise if this is completely wrong.) The bottom line is that I'd really rather the Walkthrough page is kept for a guide, due to standardisation concerns, as well as the fact that in future external sites like abxy may depend on each game guide having a "Walkthrough" page in a pre-determined location. If there really isn't any content that could go on a walkthrough page, then it could exist but redirect to something like the characters page. --DrBob (talk) 00:55, 21 January 2008 (CST)


 * The num thing was a typo. I was copying and pasting headers and not paying attention to what I was doing. It has been fixed. All the more reason to "replace all such usages of |custom with functionality in to transclude a standard page per-guide (if it exists) which would provide the custom links."
 * By exist do you mean that there could just be a walkthrough page that wasn't linked to anywhere in the guide and just said "Hello World" on it? Or does the walkthrough actually need to be in the header? If there absolutely has to be a link to it is there anyway we could hide that link? Having two names for links to the same page is messy and confusing and not a good solution. Having a link named Walkthrough that points to something which definitely is not a walkthrough is messy and confusing. Broadening the definition of a "walkthrough" beyond what is reasonable is inconsistent and confusing and also not a good solution. Though I realize this is a very hotly contested issue that's not going to be decided here, and nor should it be. --WretchedSpawn 01:31, 21 January 2008 (CST)
 * Preferably, we'd continue using the current Header Nav (although possibly with some modifications) for all guides, and it would continue to have the Walkthrough link. I realise that having the walkthrough redirect to something else and then having another link to that page is horrible, and that's why I want to explore every possible bit of content which could be put on the walkthrough page. Obviously, you can't walk someone through a complete fight, but perhaps (if my previous suggestions are rubbish), a short walkthrough could be written to introduce them to the basics of fighting, and some simple tactics/responses to the opposition's tactics? Such a page could be used in multiple guides, and I think would qualify as a walkthrough. As you say, broadening the "definition" of a walkthrough isn't good, but since we don't have a proper definition of one yet (for any genre), I think we could at least think about it. :-) (It really is time someone wrote some guide layout guidelines for the different genres, as well as definitions of what a walkthrough actually is. Probably going to be me later on.) --DrBob (talk) 01:45, 21 January 2008 (CST)
 * Ok. The page is back to using the standard header as it seems that using an alternate isn't really feasible. I've created a Sandbox/SF2Test/Header page that contains the default header for all of the pages except main (main's excluded due to its use of the num field). It then just gets transcluded on the pages that need it. This makes using and modifying a custom header very simple and seems a fairly elegant solution.
 * Since it seems that the walkthrough section is here to stay maybe it's about time we decided just what exactly should go in a walkthrough for a fighting game guide? Tips and tricks? General strategies? Strategies for defeating the game's bosses? These might be better served by having their own Tips and Tricks and Strategies sections but maybe putting this info in the walkthrough is an acceptable solution? --WretchedSpawn 14:09, 21 January 2008 (CST)

WS, you've illuminated to me the fact that this problem is systemic throughout the site, with regards to a couple of genres of games, not just Fighting. So I added my thoughts on the Community Issues page about some alternate header navs that might be more suitable for a minority of games that belong to a genre that isn't compatible with the notion of a Walkthrough. I think if we manage to settle this issue somewhat, than the discussion of what the contents of a fighting game should contain might be more easily discussed afterwards. Just my thoughts. Feel free to weigh in on the CI page. Procyon (Talk) 14:33, 21 January 2008 (CST)

Template:Samurai Shodown/TOC
To start this off from a slightly different angle (I'll eventually get to the rest of the discussion....hate coming to the party late : Anywayz, I'm not too sure where the rest of this discussion is, so I'll just start a new one (and hopefully we can centralize it here). I'd like to get rid of the Template:Samurai Shodown/TOC page.  It's mildly redundant, somewhat unnecessary, but mainly non-standard (I love teh standardz!).  It's too late for me to think clearly right now, so I'm not going to go too much into reasoning (some has been brought up elsewhere), but please bring up any major concerns and I'll try to address them. -- Prod (Talk) 00:00, 14 February 2008 (CST)

New Command List table designs
I'm starting this discussion off to keep a record of changes proposed by Ganj which I think are exceptionally well done, and propose that we full adopt. My evolution for the command lists were to take them from plain text and wikify them into tables. Ganj's evolution goes far beyond this, using table cell colors to visually denote the type of move being listed, as well as providing space for the original Japanese name and notes concerning the various moves. I have taken the liberty of creating templates designed after Ganj's (continually evolving) prototype tables (Template:Command Header, Template:Command List, Template:Command Footer) and have created the following system:

Lingering issues that need to be dealt with before adopting this change: Discuss :) Procyon (Talk) 16:53, 24 June 2008 (CDT)
 * Let Ganj finish prototyping the design, and incorporate his changes into the respective templates.
 * Make "note" an optional parameter (easy enough to do.)
 * Do we want to hardcode the relative widths of the columns? (pro: lines up the columns on pages nicely, con: may not suit all fighters equally, especially those with very long commands.)
 * What to do about the portrait blocking the notes in the first row? I would like to keep the portrait incorporated in the table somehow, I'm just not sure how.
 * Update: I just discovered that in Firefox 3, the behavior is identical to IE7, so it's sort of fixed (in that it doesn't block the notes) and sort of broken (it floats above the table)...
 * Managing to transform all of the existing move lists into command tables. Can this be botted?  The biggest problem is that the move lists broke the input up into two parts (move and button), whereas this table uses a single input column.
 * Will this transformation potentially fix the terrible loading problems we have with SFA3, or will it make the problem worse?
 * Also, in the process of updating all the tables, properly add Category:Character move lists and Category:Game move lists to all pages that are missing it (there are many).

Hello one-and-all, I'm Ganj. I guess I should say hello, at least once. I'm glad to be on-board this project...It's really cool. So...I just wanted to give an update. Just a minor tweak or two, I hope you all like it. I'll continue to give a play-by-play. But in the meantime, check it out. Ganj 17:52, 24 June 2008 (CDT)

Hiho, Bmuig here... Just because I was gone for a couple of weeks doesn't give you the right to develop one of the most beautiful Movelist Templates I have ever seen^^ .... no, honestly, the current SFIV layout looks absolutely fantastic, great work guys. About the 'floating image' problem: I like the solution on Ganj's page, but that leaves the problem that you can't link directly to the movelist via the headline with '#' anymore (since the headline would be part of the movelist)... but if that could be fixed somehow, I think this would be the best way to go...--Bmuig 10:21, 5 July 2008 (CDT)(talk)
 * Yeah...after coding it I saw what you mean right out. I was working up a modification but...I still needed haven't mapped out the design in my head. Maybe if you, or someone else, took the HTML code for the tale from my page, you could tinker around w/ it; come up w/ somethin'. By the way, nice to meet ya', Bmuig. (^_^) Ganj 16:44, 7 July 2008 (CDT)


 * AH-HA!! I've been constructing a new command chart in light of the newly released command charts for the " Street Fighter IV " characters. And have made some huge strides. They may seem a bit much, but I'll make adjustments as time passes. I'm not finished with this project; this is NOT the true vision I have in mind, but it DID give me some new ideas. I've incorporated a tier system rather than the unified level chart. Each technique type has it's own tier chart (ie. Regular moves tier >> Grapples tier, etc.) Anyways, in the mean time, check out the progress of Prototype MK.II under the Command Tables Prototype section. Ganj 15:24, 12 July 2008 (CDT)

Level parameter
What does the |level parameter mean? -- Prod (Talk) 10:42, 5 July 2008 (CDT)


 * That's the system, right? You guys changed things?. Let me check the project page... Okay. The "|level" perimeters are shown above. They denote the type of move the character uses.

The number used will determine the type/level of the moves when you construct the tables. Ganj 10:59, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
 * Level 1 = "Grapples"
 * Level 2 = "Command Regulars"
 * Level 3 = "Special Moves"
 * Level 4 = "Specialty"
 * Level 5 = "Super Moves"
 * Level 6 = "Ultra Moves"
 * I'd suggest changing it from an arbitrary number to |move=grapple so that it's more descriptive of what it represents. -- Prod (Talk) 13:26, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
 * The only problem with that suggestion is that not every game will use each level for the same purpose. For example, while almost every game is going to use Level 3 for special moves, Level 4 might be used for Alpha Combos in SFA, or the Dark Force move in Vampire Savior, etc.  I just assumed that we would include a key table at the top of each moves page to designate each color so that it was clear.  Perhaps we should move this discussion to StrategyWiki talk:Move lists project
 * (copied from User talk:Ganj)
 * You can always define multiple of them to have the same colours. -- Prod (Talk) 16:50, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
 * That IS something to think about...Ganj 16:49, 7 July 2008 (CDT)

Japanese parameter
I noticed that on some of the pages, the following code: |japanese= text. Would it be useful to move that into the template? -- Prod (Talk) 19:18, 12 July 2008 (CDT)
 * Yeah. It would. Ganj 22:21, 12 July 2008 (CDT)

Submited for your approval
I have have made my own move list mock-up move-list and I'm seeking opinions and critiques. Obviously it's not perfect, I was hoping to make the left most column invisible but I don't know how. Though I like Ganj's design, I think the color coded approach is too uninformative for practical use.--Blue Phoenix 19:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC) View · [ edit]


 * That's a big change, and so are Ganj's; but what, really, is the purpose in this? What don't you like about our current move list display? -- 19:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What I don't like about the current template is that there is no place for throws and command moves, which are then omitted from most lists, but when they are included there is no separation between them and special moves.--Blue Phoenix 19:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's my $0.02. The most important thing about these lists is that they be viewable and easily understandable at a glance.  This mean, all lists should attempt to be as complete, and yet as short, as possible, so that a user doesn't need to scroll down the screen to see all of the moves.  Adding those title bars every couple of lines extends the height of the list, thereby making it more likely for a user to need to rely on scrolling to see all of the information.  This is something that Ganj's approach deals with, because of the use of color coding, which doesn't add any height to the table in order to inform what kind of move is what.  I'm not sure that there is such a huge benefit to the reader in making the distinction between a throw, command move, and special move.  Hardcore fighting fans will already know which is which, and non-hardcore players just want to know what combinations of motions are available.  There's no reason to omit throws and command moves, but there's not reason to separate them either.  Procyon (Talk) 21:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't even know what a "command move" is; I think as long as the move has "close" next to it, it means it's a throw. -- 00:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * FYI, a command move is a move where the function of a button changes if the joystick is pushed in a specific direction. For example, in most of the later Street Fighter games, if you play as Ryu, when you press MP he does a regular forward punch.  However, if you hold forward when you press MP, he does a rushing gut punch instead. It differs from a special move because it doesn't require a specific sequence of joystick motions to input. Procyon (Talk) 03:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Could a set image be used in each row that signifies each type? You could give it a caption that describes what type of move it is.  That way experts can figure out what each colour means, and novices won't care because they don't know the difference anywayz. -- Prod (Talk) 04:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that's an excellent idea. I'm imagining small icons that show interaction between two characters (like Ryu/Ken). These icons could reside in their own column, but it would be easier to implement if we either prefixed move names with them. However, since we have it ordered by name, I think putting the icon after the name or below it (with a line break) would be better (so as to not take away the focus from the names). -- 05:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This only needs to be implemented to a certain extent for the following reason. It's no coincidence that Blue Phoenix's order of move headers mirrors Ganj's levels so closely.  Moves are universally presented in that order (throws, command moves, special moves, super moves).  One way to do it would be append a column on the left that contains nothing but one of Ganj's colors, and rowspans through the extent of rows that include moves of one particular class.  I'll try to mock it up.  Procyon (Talk) 14:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've removed the rowspans. I don't think they're necessary, and they would make templating much harder. -- Prod (Talk) 17:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * If we go with the colored boxes, I think that the colored areas should somehow link to a key. -- 17:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)




 * bgcolor="#ADD8E6" align="center"|Throws
 * bgcolor="#1E90FF" align="center"|Command Normals
 * bgcolor="#000050" align="center" style="color:white"|Special Moves
 * bgcolor="#FF9900" align="center"|Super Moves
 * }
 * I think the colored boxes are an excellent idea. Not only do they designate move types but they could pull double duty for EX marks and the like. --Blue Phoenix 17:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Image request
I think it would be advantageous if wee had images for: Hold; (Hold); Close; and Away [ Blue Phoenix 17:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC) ]


 * Why would it be more advantageous to have those as images instead of simply using text? At a certain point, there is processor overhead to generating a page to consider, and text is much easier for the server to generate than image requests. Procyon (Talk) 18:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about performance in this case, decide based on clarity/simplicity for the user. -- Prod (Talk) 06:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)