BlkDuc52: I'm not sure because I never got a bowman into the 2nd job advancement, but I read somewhere that if you jump-attack, FA will NEVER activate. Somebody please check me on this.
- This has been confirmed. I will move these messages to the discussion page btw in a week. They don't look good in the middle of a book.--Dragontamer 17:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Archer or Bowman?[edit]
The terms "Archer" and "Bowman" seem to be used interchangably on this page, and likely others. If the guide was modified to be more consistent in terms, which would be used, "Archer" or "Bowman"? -EMP Demon 07:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- We should stick to Bowman when refering to the class in general, but when refering to the first job they are called archers. IE. a hunter, crossbowman and archer are all bowmen, but the first two are in second job, the last is in first job. This is how the game uses it. --Prod-You 15:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
AB vs DS debates[edit]
- Combos. Arrow Blow has an no advantage for combos because of it being a slower animated attack. It is easier to stack with skills like Iron Arrow/Arrow Bomb and Strafe. When you alternate between AB and your mob attack, you can make the mob attack follow the AB almost like a self-controlled Final Attack. That does not mitigate taking more than 1 point in AB. Like any slower attack, it just adds to your ability to chain together effective combos. While it seems counter-intuitive to mix in a weaker attack, it solves the problems of monsters in a mob breaking through and hitting you. --24.82.172.133 22:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
- No offense to whoever posted the above; but everything in this paragraph is incorrect, and will be deleted in a few days. Arrow Blow has the same delay, precisely .7 seconds for a Bowman with booster, precisely .8 seconds for an Xbow with booster, and .88 seconds for Xbow no booster. It is the same speed as Double Shot, arrow bomb, and Iron Arrow. --Dragontamer 21:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with delay. It has to do with stacking. Delay is a pointless argument because you measure it in a bubble of shooting thin air at max range. What you don't see is delay changes with the length of the shot until it reaches the target. What I am saying is that there is a pause in animations of attacks, and during that pause you can input your next attack by "stacking" them. Just because people have not mastered this skill, like Jump Shot, doesn't mean you should remove it. This speaks to people who understand how to do this and have figured out you can chain attacks together without the margin of error in having to wait to input it and for it to be animated before it comes out. No offense to you either, but I don't think it's in the public's best interest for you to delete something instead of trying to figure out what I am talking about. Obviously I have discovered something you have not, and I suggest you test it out. It has nothing to do with delay and everything to do with repeating shots. Follow an IA/ABomb directly pressing your DS, almost simultaneously. You will see that it has to animate the entire pulling back of the bow and shooting of the DS, and it also has to animate both hits. Then follow your IA/ABomb with ABlow and you will see that it only animates the last frame of pulling the bow. That means it's been stacked. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough, but I think the proper course of action would be to try what I am saying and compare for yourself instead of deleting it since like you, I added it to be helpful. This is why you can keep mobs from overruning you if you alternate your IA/ABomb and ABlow, but if you use DS instead of ABlow mobs can advance on you. --Smacksaw 6:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Moved this away from the main page since none of it is widely known. He said it would be deleted since we haven't heard of this before, and he posted the comment to give you a chance to respond. My bowman is level 14 right now...so i can't really test this yet, but input from more people would be useful. This info seems relatively new, so lets get a few people to test it before we put it in the main guide. -- Prod-You 01:59, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with delay. It has to do with stacking. Delay is a pointless argument because you measure it in a bubble of shooting thin air at max range. What you don't see is delay changes with the length of the shot until it reaches the target. What I am saying is that there is a pause in animations of attacks, and during that pause you can input your next attack by "stacking" them. Just because people have not mastered this skill, like Jump Shot, doesn't mean you should remove it. This speaks to people who understand how to do this and have figured out you can chain attacks together without the margin of error in having to wait to input it and for it to be animated before it comes out. No offense to you either, but I don't think it's in the public's best interest for you to delete something instead of trying to figure out what I am talking about. Obviously I have discovered something you have not, and I suggest you test it out. It has nothing to do with delay and everything to do with repeating shots. Follow an IA/ABomb directly pressing your DS, almost simultaneously. You will see that it has to animate the entire pulling back of the bow and shooting of the DS, and it also has to animate both hits. Then follow your IA/ABomb with ABlow and you will see that it only animates the last frame of pulling the bow. That means it's been stacked. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough, but I think the proper course of action would be to try what I am saying and compare for yourself instead of deleting it since like you, I added it to be helpful. This is why you can keep mobs from overruning you if you alternate your IA/ABomb and ABlow, but if you use DS instead of ABlow mobs can advance on you. --Smacksaw 6:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- I have tested this subject thourally, which is how I got the "Speed Ladder" for the guide. I have tested it using 2 methods: A stopwatch and counting, and actually taking videos of me doing it, taking them apart frame-by-frame, and then counting the number of frames between each attacks.
- Now if you have some significant amount of work done like I have on this subject; then maybe I can have a belief of you; but my research has also shown that the "frames" that are shown when you do a attack is more related to lag than anything else. The "frames" (as in, pull bow back, etc. etc.) do not really count; as you "hit" the enemy as soon as you hit the button; everything else is the delay after you hit.
- This is how I know you are wrong; 2 tests which took quite a long time thank you very much. If you would like to try my test; get fraps to record a movie, and then some sort of encoder to split it up into 200 or so picture files for you to analyse. After you've done that, lets talk.
- Mind you; take no offense to this. Just most people I know see something happen, make a conclusion based on inaccurate tests, and then post it up on this guide. That is why I am suspicious of new information. And the "delay" I was talking about was the measure of the animation speed. Again; the actual animations change to lag conditions and other unknown conditions. I've seen PKB take up 1 frame, or 2 frames, and DS/AB take up 3 frames of animation before an FA and sometimes only 2. I've seen strafe bounce back and forth between 1 frame and 2 frames as well. The only accurate tests I've seen deal with making a video and then using it.
--Dragontamer 03:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Now, I hate to be rude like this and all and ask for "proof", but could you just download fraps, and upload a video of this to google or something? Seriously; if it is something new; the video will show it most definitly. But I've tried it myself; and I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Until then, I'd have to say that this "combo" is false. --Dragontamer 03:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
AB Myth on wikibooks again[edit]
The last edit introduced a few myths into this guide again; which I have disproven several times. The deleted material shall go here again, just incase the editor wishes to discuss his contributions.
The following is from 202.156.6.54
- Rebuttal : AB will enable you to go to higher levelled areas (e.g. Pepe, Golem, Yepe) earlier and enab;e you to kill them effectively, additionaly, with DS, the defence factor of the monster will come into effect TWICE, instead of just once by AB, so in effect, although DS, granted, is slightly more powerful, it will not enable archers who use DS to go into certain areas early.
- For example, a level 39 hunter decides that he wants a Valuter 2000 (V2K) so in order not to have to purchase a V2K from the shop (at a whopping 300k over!) he has to hunt Jr. Pepes to get a drop of a V2K. Jr Pepe's often come in mobs and have a huge flinch damage of 1000, assuming that the average damage of that archer is 500 plus or minus a bit. A DS will do apprx 630 x 2, but just for simplicity, 1300-1600 damage (rounded), sometimes a one hit kill. But an Arrow Blow will do 1300-1500, well into the OHKO range as well, but now, AB consumes less MP as well, so shot for shot, not only will AB be more effective in some areas, but will save you a large amount on potions.
Basically; I'd like to talk over how this should be placed in the guide. Yes; we need a rebuttle; but some of thees things simply are not true. For example; Double-shot does much more damage than AB, and AB takes in as much armor as DS. Frankly; these two well-tested facts destroy your argument.
A more realistic range would be 1600 max damage with DS (800 + 800) and AB's max damage at 1200 dmg. Thanks to DingDong's and Butterz's dmg formulas from Sleepywood, we can also see that armor will factor in the same for both AB and DS. An estimation of the lower-end dmg range would be closer to 542.60 for both AB and DS. (with DS doing 220 dmg to 800 dmg x 2, and AB doing 542 dmg to 1200 dmg)
I've also proven that the dmg range is uniformly distributed. So we can expect AB to KB only 30% of the time if it gets a critical, and 0% of the time if it doesn't get a critical; leaving the actual KB % at 12%.
Frankly speaking; we can have a rebuttle; but lets try to write one which sticks to the facts. And I feel pretty bad to delete your stuff outright; or even modify your words because I obviously have a biased opinion towards DS. So lets get a rebuttle we both can agree on; one that sticks to facts.--Dragontamer 20:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
3rd job builds[edit]
why not add in a minimum level of skill point for each of the skills, since most ppl would put some points into all of the skills except fire shot & thrust before starting on the debates.