StrategyWiki:Staff lounge/2014/May

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:Please ignore this message, I've tinkered about with the page and fixed the layout problems. --[[User:SuperSajuuk|Super Sajuuk]] [[User talk:SuperSajuuk|Talk Page]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk The YouTube Channel] 12:01, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

== Footers in hub-style walkthroughs ==

This has come up in copying over the [[Strife]] walkthrough, and in the process editing it to conform to the style of this wiki (e.g. a "spoilerpages" tag at the start of the page, instead of a "spoiler"/"endspoiler" tag pair around the main body), because one major style difference is that this wiki uses headers and footers, whilst the Doom Wiki (where I originally saved this walkthrough) does not. This is no problem in games such as [[Doom]] where the progression is linear (except for the one level per episode where there's a secret exit), but in hub-style games there could be (and often are) multiple previous/next levels for each page. In such circumstances, is it OK to use multiple footers to cover all such combinations?

I tried looking at the [[Hexen]] walkthrough for guidance, that being the only other hub-type game I'm familiar with, but nobody has written one yet, so it looks like I'm blazing the trail here. See [[Strife/Town]] for how I've tackled this problem. — [[User:RobertATfm|RobertATfm]] ([[User talk:RobertATfm|talk]]) 08:30, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

:No offense to you Robert, but that's... that's just terrible. Our Footer Navs provide the ability to specify custom nexts and custom prevs, but for what you need, those won't do. I would not rely on the Footer Navs at all in this case, and write your own custom template. You can either generalize it so that it can be used across titles, or make it specific to Strife. But please, get rid of those Footer Navs, that's not at all how they were intended to be used. Wherever possible, they should point to the linear progression of the Walkthrough for the player, but when that's not possible, they should just point to the next "chapter" of the guide, whether that chapter immediately follows the current page or not. '''[[User:Procyon|Pro]][[User talk:Procyon|cyon]]''' 13:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

::I would suggest using a list of links to all the next locations, maybe as a table. But the Footer Nav is best to only use for the next most "obvious" (or recommended) path. Generally we just match it to the ordering in the Table of Contents. -- [[User:Prod|Prod]] ([[User talk:Prod|talk]]) 14:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

:Because this problem is far from being unique to Strife, I think a generic template would be better than a specific one. One idea I've had is to make the prevpage and nextpage parameters conditional, so that if entered as "$hub" or some such, instead of a link to a page, the text "progress-dependent" (or equivalent) is generated. I'll try out this idea by creating a new <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[:Template:Hub Nav|Hub Nav]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> template which is an edited version of <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[:Template:Footer Nav|Footer Nav]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>, and testing that.

:This problem is why (with the exception of Town and New Front Base, on the latter of which I used the standard footer although it's not totally applicable) I have so far only imported levels where the progression is strictly linear. — [[User:RobertATfm|RobertATfm]] ([[User talk:RobertATfm|talk]]) 16:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

:Actually, it looks as if the existing template can be used the way I envisage already, by using "prevname" and "nextname" (unless those require the others to work). — [[User:RobertATfm|RobertATfm]] ([[User talk:RobertATfm|talk]]) 16:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

::The FN template is actually pretty flexible. Check out the [[Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas]] guide for some more advanced usage. -- [[User:Prod|Prod]] ([[User talk:Prod|talk]]) 23:47, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

:::All of our walkthroughs are linear. If you haven't written Strife's to be linear yet, then you haven't expanded it enough. We often have walkthroughs that return to old areas. These are often included as sub-sections of a particular page where it is relevant. If an area is wholly explored again, sometimes we have a new page that says (revisited) or something in the title to indicate this second time returning to the location. See [[Chrono Trigger/Table of Contents]] for some visit notation. --{{User:Notmyhandle/Sig}} 16:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

::::I disagree with the assertion that all of our walkthroughs are necessarily linear. They may be ''arranged'' linearly because that is the format which suites the site best, but the walkthroughs themselves need not necessarily be linear. You can direct a reader to another page in the middle of one page, with the notion that they will return to that page eventually (or perhaps not). I know I've done that in the [[Metal Gear]] walkthroughs because they are arranged by location, not by progression. '''[[User:Procyon|Pro]][[User talk:Procyon|cyon]]''' 19:46, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

:::::I have seen some alternative walkthrough description methods that stray from the traditional "describe everything in narrative prose". I do like guides like [[The Legend of Zelda]] where the dungeons are split up and the walkthrough points out key points as the player goes through the areas. The best way to do a hub-style ToC per page would be to just make a little section like "Next areas to explore" and then use a bulleted list of the other pages to go to. The footer nav prev/next page links would be less important then, but could act with a secondary function of just pointing alphabetically to the next page, or in Strife's case, to the next map number in the sequence. --{{User:Notmyhandle/Sig}} 00:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

StrategyWiki:Staff lounge/2014/May: Difference between revisions

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@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 :Please ignore this message, I've tinkered about with the page and fixed the layout problems. --[[User:SuperSajuuk|Super Sajuuk]] <sup><small>[[User talk:SuperSajuuk|Talk Page]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk The YouTube Channel]</small></sup> 12:01, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
+== Footers in hub-style walkthroughs ==
+This has come up in copying over the [[Strife]] walkthrough, and in the process editing it to conform to the style of this wiki (e.g. a "spoilerpages" tag at the start of the page, instead of a "spoiler"/"endspoiler" tag pair around the main body), because one major style difference is that this wiki uses headers and footers, whilst the Doom Wiki (where I originally saved this walkthrough) does not. This is no problem in games such as [[Doom]] where the progression is linear (except for the one level per episode where there's a secret exit), but in hub-style games there could be (and often are) multiple previous/next levels for each page. In such circumstances, is it OK to use multiple footers to cover all such combinations?
+I tried looking at the [[Hexen]] walkthrough for guidance, that being the only other hub-type game I'm familiar with, but nobody has written one yet, so it looks like I'm blazing the trail here. See [[Strife/Town]] for how I've tackled this problem. — [[User:RobertATfm|RobertATfm]] ([[User talk:RobertATfm|talk]]) 08:30, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
+:No offense to you Robert, but that's... that's just terrible.  Our Footer Navs provide the ability to specify custom nexts and custom prevs, but for what you need, those won't do.  I would not rely on the Footer Navs at all in this case, and write your own custom template.  You can either generalize it so that it can be used across titles, or make it specific to Strife.  But please, get rid of those Footer Navs, that's not at all how they were intended to be used.  Wherever possible, they should point to the linear progression of the Walkthrough for the player, but when that's not possible, they should just point to the next "chapter" of the guide, whether that chapter immediately follows the current page or not. '''[[User:Procyon|<span style="color:red">Pro</span>]][[User talk:Procyon|<span style="color:grey">cyon</span>]]''' 13:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
+::I would suggest using a list of links to all the next locations, maybe as a table.  But the Footer Nav is best to only use for the next most "obvious" (or recommended) path.  Generally we just match it to the ordering in the Table of Contents. -- [[User:Prod|Prod]] ([[User talk:Prod|talk]]) 14:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
+:Because this problem is far from being unique to Strife, I think a generic template would be better than a specific one. One idea I've had is to make the prevpage and nextpage parameters conditional, so that if entered as "$hub" or some such, instead of a link to a page, the text "progress-dependent" (or equivalent) is generated. I'll try out this idea by creating a new <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[:Template:Hub Nav|Hub Nav]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> template which is an edited version of <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[:Template:Footer Nav|Footer Nav]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>, and testing that.
+:This problem is why (with the exception of Town and New Front Base, on the latter of which I used the standard footer although it's not totally applicable) I have so far only imported levels where the progression is strictly linear. — [[User:RobertATfm|RobertATfm]] ([[User talk:RobertATfm|talk]]) 16:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
+:Actually, it looks as if the existing template can be used the way I envisage already, by using "prevname" and "nextname" (unless those require the others to work). — [[User:RobertATfm|RobertATfm]] ([[User talk:RobertATfm|talk]]) 16:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
+::The FN template is actually pretty flexible.  Check out the [[Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas]] guide for some more advanced usage. -- [[User:Prod|Prod]] ([[User talk:Prod|talk]]) 23:47, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
+:::All of our walkthroughs are linear. If you haven't written Strife's to be linear yet, then you haven't expanded it enough. We often have walkthroughs that return to old areas. These are often included as sub-sections of a particular page where it is relevant. If an area is wholly explored again, sometimes we have a new page that says (revisited) or something in the title to indicate this second time returning to the location. See [[Chrono Trigger/Table of Contents]] for some visit notation. --{{User:Notmyhandle/Sig}} 16:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
+::::I disagree with the assertion that all of our walkthroughs are necessarily linear.  They may be ''arranged'' linearly because that is the format which suites the site best, but the walkthroughs themselves need not necessarily be linear.  You can direct a reader to another page in the middle of one page, with the notion that they will return to that page eventually (or perhaps not).  I know I've done that in the [[Metal Gear]] walkthroughs because they are arranged by location, not by progression.  '''[[User:Procyon|<span style="color:red">Pro</span>]][[User talk:Procyon|<span style="color:grey">cyon</span>]]''' 19:46, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
+:::::I have seen some alternative walkthrough description methods that stray from the traditional "describe everything in narrative prose". I do like guides like [[The Legend of Zelda]] where the dungeons are split up and the walkthrough points out key points as the player goes through the areas. The best way to do a hub-style ToC per page would be to just make a little section like "Next areas to explore" and then use a bulleted list of the other pages to go to. The footer nav prev/next page links would be less important then, but could act with a secondary function of just pointing alphabetically to the next page, or in Strife's case, to the next map number in the sequence. --{{User:Notmyhandle/Sig}} 00:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

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