User talk:Neff

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Please remember to sign your name when leaving comments on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Feel free to delete this message from your talk page if you like, or keep it for reference. Happy editing! — Prod (talk) 01:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Final Fantasy names

With all of the name changes that you are making, how are you making sure that players who are playing the NES or PSX versions of the game understand which spell names and locations you are referring to? It's not OK to make the guides specific to one particular version of the game, the guide must be accessible to any player playing any version of the game. NES players do not know what Curaga or Curaja are because those spells don't have those names in the game. How do you propose to overcome this problem? Procyon 00:39, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I feel we need a page which has a lookup table of all the different names from the different versions. We stick to one version of naming (first official localization) and we can maybe add a reference/link to the version naming page? -- Prod (talk) 01:37, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I am aware that my approach isn't ideal. I assumed that the lastest names for spells were going to be used in this wiki, mainly because on the 'Black magic' and 'White magic' pages those names are at the top of each table (under spell listings) and bold faced.

When I looked at other pages for Final Fantasy I found that sometimes the NES names, sometimes the PSX names and other times the GBA names were used. The issue you mentioned (NES players do not know what Curaga or Curaja are because those spells don't have those names in the game.) was present before, just the other way around. I simply was trying to make it more consistent. In addition, most of the edits I made to the spell names were links to the respective pages, so you could look up what each spell is, if you were unsure: The 'Black magic' and 'White magic' pages list 3 names for the spells and the links I edited link to the sections directly.

I like the idea of a lookup table. We would have to decide which version of names we are going to use (I don't care which one) and stay consistent. Where do you add the link to the lookup table page though? Neff (talk) 13:55, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Another reason for updating the spell names was that links didn't work properly when the old names were used. For example: Cure4 doesn't link to the right section, but Curaja does. Neff (talk) 14:01, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I found the Control selector template and was wondering if we could use this? You would choose the version of game you're playing which would then change the spell names etc. on the page. But it would have to display "select game" instead of "select controller". That would be the best solution in my opinion, but I don't know if it's possible. Neff (talk) 18:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I like the idea of using {{Control selector}}. It's primarily for controller buttons, where you can see visually it's the wrong system and change it. With differing names, especially some which are completely different, it may not be obvious to users which version they're on, or that they should change it. One possibility is having a reference. Another possibility is to put the alt names in a hover, similar to {{nihongo}} (see example). Regarding which version, probably the first localized version is the most appropriate based on our usual policies, this way we don't have to keep updating the guide every time a new game changes the names. But the latest release is probably the most useful to users. To add a page with a lookup table, you can add a new link to the Table of Contents page. -- Prod (talk) 21:20, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. I'm trying to figure out how this nihongo template works ... one (two, three^?) ... it just puts the alternate names in parenthesis? How do I create a link then? [[Final Fantasy/White magic#Curaja|CUR4 (Cure4, Curaja^?)]] this doesn't work..

This seems to work: CUR4 (Cure4, Curaja^?)

But then we would have to write all 3 (or more) names of every item, spell, location etc. every time a name comes up, which would make the pages more difficult to read.

I'm not sure what the best solution is. Maybe a reference is the way to go. But again: do we put a reference in for every mention of the name? Neff (talk) 23:27, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

That template is just an example. We'd make a custom template for this specifically. So it looks like^?, or this, or even a combination of both. We could even put it all in a template which would automatically enter the right term based on the lookup tables. I think the first step though is to create the page with the comparison. I'd suggest Final Fantasy/Versions. -- Prod (talk) 04:30, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions, Prod. I wasn't entirely sure how to start, so I created a simple table in the StrategyWiki:Sandbox. Is that what you imagined? Neff (talk) 12:50, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the guide further, the version differences are mentioned on pages like Final Fantasy/White magic. I guess the question is just the best way to display it on guide pages, and link to the relevant lookups. Are all the different version names listed on those pages? -- Prod (talk) 23:23, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are the "relevant lookups" pages that need to be created or do you refer to e.g. White magic? "Are all the different version names listed on those pages?" If you refer to White magic, Weapons, Key items, etc. then I can't give you a definitive answer, it is very inconsistent and not well structured (compare the tables on the weapons and armor pages with key items for example). The White magic page is done better than most other pages but it's far from perfect. The tables under Spell listings look good I suppose. But they also only list the names from NES, PSX and GBA. Afaik PSP and Pixel Remaster changed a few names yet again (I don't know for sure, haven't played them, I only looked it up online). And the problem is not just the spell names, but also weapons, armor, some locations, many key items etc.

When you refer to "guide pages" do you mean the pages under walkthrough?

I really liked your idea of making a template like this. I changed my opinion on this one, because when the text is a link, it's really diificult to hover over it with your mouse so that you can see the tooltip: Example. Maybe this^? is better. What would a page with the comparison look like? I made a simple table in the Sandbox, would that be usable or does it have to have a different structure? I'm willing to help, but I haven't much experience with wiki's. If you clearly tell me what to do, I'll work on it. -- Neff (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Display on lookup pages

I haven't played the FF games in years, and it was on the original systems, not re-releases, so I don't know much about the differences at all. So I'll need your support for explaining those to me. Relevant lookups would be sections like Final Fantasy/White magic#Spell listings, where all the different version names are listed. We then have the /Versions page talk about why there are so many different names. We probably should have tables, like the one you created on the sandbox, to show all the different version names, but it should be more customized for each specific page. For example, on the Key Items page, a table would work very well, with one row per item. However, on the White magic page, that probably wouldn't work as well. I think you're right, the superscript is probably the best way to display the links. -- Prod (talk) 03:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

About the differences: Many of the names for spells, items etc. have changed. This is the main issue. As far as gameplay goes, the NES and PSX are apparently very similar, while GBA and newer versions changed a few things. I've only played PSX, so I can't tell you exactly. Still not entirely sure what the /Versions page should look like or if we need it at all.

I converted some of the Key items page into tables: take a look. -- Neff (talk) 02:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that's a good start. Do you think the alt names need individual columns, or would it be better as a small list in one column? I ask because the other columns seem to be getting squished. Just to confirm, these are the names from: Origins, Dawn of Souls, Pixel Remaster. It looks like there's 20 different releases of the game. wp:Final Fantasy (video game)#Versions and re-releases, though many of those are just VC/emulation. -- Prod (talk) 04:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, PSX is Origins, GBA is Dawn of Souls, and Pixel Remaster is Pixel Remaster (maybe this should be shortened to PR). If we went with the long names the tables would look cluttered. I think we need to make a decision on which versions we cover, we can't possibly list all 20, but it does seem like there are only 4 or 5 different versions. In the case where some versions share the same names, but others don't, I think the table is much more clear if it lists them in different columns. I can see that the columns will be squished, but that is an extreme example. I made alternate versions of the two tables for comparison. The more versions there are (or the more version there will be) the worse it will look however. I'm not convinced that integrating the names into the current pages is the best approach. Imagine the Armor page for example with even more columns to show all the names. Shouldn't we create a separate page with a table for all the names instead? Then we could use the superscript to link to the section of that page's table so people can look it up quickly. And then we could only use one version's names throughout all other pages to make look clean. -- Neff (talk) 13:14, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I've created {{Final Fantasy/TermSave}} and modified your table to use it. The table you created goes over most use-cases. As a bonus, using this template will fill in Special:CargoTables/Final Fantasy names which we can query on other pages when we figure out how we want to display things. Regarding the armor page, I feel that page is a bit of a mess and I'm not even sure it completely covers all armor. Instead of creating additional columns for alternate names, we could display them below the NES names in the same column. -- Prod (talk) 03:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Awesome! Thank you for creating the template. I've tested it a little bit, but didn't have much time. Filling in all the names will be a bit tedious, but I can probably do it over the next few days or so. We still need to solve how to do the links. Do we use the NES names on the walkthrough and other pages and display the alternate names as superscript? CUR4^? Or is it possible to show the names in a tooltip? Although that probably doesn't show up on a mobile device. I'm not sure. Do you have an idea? -- Neff (talk) 19:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Display on content pages

You're right that on mobile, neither of the suggestions would work. Either we have to show all possible names beside each other like NES (PSX, GBA), or we have to use the {{Control selector}}. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not totally on board with using control selector since it's not clear when a user has the ability to switch it. I'll see if that's something we can get updated. In the meantime, we can create a template that we use in each case to display it in the bracketed format, and then if control selector is updated we can update just the template to handle it. -- Prod (talk) 04:26, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Some of the names are quite long, so showing them all next to each other might look stuffed. I hope you can come up with something similar to control selector, I don't know how to do this, sorry. I've been working on compiling a spreadsheet of all the different versions. So far I have NES, Origins and Souls completed, and Pixel Remaster is almost done. What do you mean by "create a template that we use in each case to display it in the bracketed format"? Is that something I can help with? -- Neff (talk) 22:51, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

It'll need to show up differently on desktop and mobile. I'm working with a developer to see if they can help me upgrade the selector to work better. I've created {{Final Fantasy/Term}} for display. The template will need to be fairly complex, so it only has very basic functionality for now. {{Final Fantasy/Term|HERB}} creates HERB (Jolt Tonic, Jolt Tonic, Jolt Tonic). The next step is to fill the data into the table by updating the lookup pages. -- Prod (talk) 04:54, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I've edited the Final Fantasy/Key items alt page to use the TermSave template. Since the NES names are now the default names none of the links work currently, but they can be updated later. -- Neff (talk) 00:50, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I also made a new version of Enemies page. -- Neff (talk) 23:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that looks good. I made a few minor changes to it. Unfortunately the table is rather wide, but I don't think we can do anything about that. -- Prod (talk) 18:55, 21 August 2023 (UTC)