This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the main talk page.

April 2007 | May 2007 | June 2007

## Mobile Phone games/genre

When working on ActRaiser I noticed that Wikipedia has the game listed under Mobile Phones as a platform, since Square Enix made a version of the game in 2003 for such a platform (according to Wikipedia). How do we accurately note this information? Should a general Mobile Phone genre be created? I don't have a cell phone, but what sort of software is involved? Does it make a difference? Do the cell phones themselves, the model or brand for instance, change anything besides availability of the games and software (engine)? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 20:40, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Category:Mobile. -- Prod (Talk) 20:41, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
Mmk. Ambiguity for the win. What should it be categorized under the game platform though? Mobile Phone or just Mobile? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 22:04, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
The problem with the genre is that the game will probably be very different so we would need a disambig page for the game and that would be annoying with games that are already done or half done.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 00:57, 27 April 2007 (CDT)
It's pretty much gaurenteed to be different, although since 2003 I assume much has developed in the way of cellphones. ActRaiser was a game that got reduced to a three level platformer. --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 01:34, 27 April 2007 (CDT)
Actually for something like this we could probably do ActRaiser (disambiguation) and link to it at the top of the main ActRaiser page. I say that since the SNES version is WAY more common and what people would most likely be looking for. Thats how disambig typically works on WP anyway and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't copy their policy on this. --Argash 08:54, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

## Collaboration of the Month URGENT

It's the end of the month, and there's no Collab assigned! See main page A.S.A.P! --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 01:11, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

Heh heh heh, I'd been wondering about that... Get to it guys, gals, etc, put votes in if you haven't already, sort this out Quick!! :-P --Froglet 04:08, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
We still need a promising guide of the month. Vote, people!--Dan 08:27, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
Currently, Pokémon Gold, Silver and Crystal is in the lead with 2 for votes and 0 oppose votes! I'd say this candidate would win unless some new votes are added (and/or new candidates)! --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 16:28, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
I opposed G/S/C, but I want to be clear about why I did. At some point I intend to reformat G/S/C to the format that R/B/Y uses, and the less stuff that's already there, the easier it is to do. I know it's not for me to say, "no, you can't do that," and I'm not trying to say that. I'm only asking to be given an opportunity to get through R/B/Y and then I can start G/S/C in earnest. Read my comments on the collab page for more. Procyon (Talk) 16:47, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

## Completely redone the CI archives

I've completely redone the archives for this page to hopefully make it easier to find stuff. Previously it was in something that vaguely resembled chronological order with a lot of stuff in completely random order. I've now organized everything by the date of the first SIGNED post in a topic. Please remember that the existing archives are still wildly out of order with in each month because thats how they come out of the old archives and I didn't feel the need for perfection. Going forward it should take care of itself though. --Argash 05:26, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

So are we archiving threads by last post or by creation date?--Dan 08:21, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
The best practice is by creation date or the date of the first signed post. On WP the standard practice is to archive a discussion when it appears to be finished (a few days with no new posts). Then after that discussion is archived if you want to revive it you start up a new topic on the main page referencing the archive. This helps to keep only the most relevant discussions up front and free of dead discussions. --Argash 16:03, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

### Need help with Template:Talkarchive

I might have been too clever in the way that I set up the new archives. If you look at the link generated by Template:Talkarchive on StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal/2007/March the link to the main discussion page points to StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal/2007 instead of StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal. Anyone have any ideas how to fix that?--Argash 01:50, 4 May 2007 (CDT)

Well, Until we find out, I've redirected it to here.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 00:54, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
Hah such an easy solution that i couldn't even think of it! good job sir! --Argash 01:50, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
Thanks but we really need a fix for this so we don't have to deal with the the 2008 bug :P. I'll look at the template tonight or tomorrow.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 10:19, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
I asked at wikipedia and the only suggestion was to put a `{{BASEPAGENAME}}` on a subpage of each page that you want to archive ans subst: it to the page but that would mean doing it for every page, I've got an idea with the parser functions but for now, just redirect them.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 13:35, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
I'll take a look later today, see if anything can be worked out. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 19:09, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
I don't understand why you don't just hardcode StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal in instead of that basepage crap. lol --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 20:05, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
Ohhhhh is the template used for ALL archive pages? ahaha I thought this was specific to just the comm portal talk. Anyways, why not just add a parameter for the page? {{Talkarchive|StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal}} ...? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 20:10, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
{{Talkarchive|StrategyWiki talk:Community Portal}} doesn't work as it has to be an external link (like http://strategywiki.org/wiki/StrategyWiki_talk:Community_Portal ). Anyway, I've modified the template a bit so all you have to do is {{Talkarchive|CP}} and it links to the community portal talk page. (It uses #ifeq so it HAS to be exactly CP, it IS case-sensitive) --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 20:41, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
Works for me thanks for the fix Argash 21:38, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
I asked at wikipedia and they've come up with a different solution for this, it will work for every page so I'm testing it out here and here. When it's done I'll copy and paste it. BTW Is it OK to stop at 2 subpages (e.g a/b/c) or should I do 3 (e.g a/b/c/d), i'll set this up so you put "|2" for 2 and "|3" for 3 on the template.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 13:20, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

## I'm headed to Florida for a week

Just so you guys know. I'll be using some of my time down there for guide writing. No internet though. If you need anything, let me know now. Otherwise, talk to Dan or DrBob about any server problems/issues you have in my absence. See you guys when I get back! Also, I'm out of college for a few weeks until summer semester (which will be a light load). Cheers! echelon 00:21, 4 May 2007 (CDT)

Have fun man. Thanks for everything. What guides? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 01:23, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask is first on my list. I may finish taking screenshots for Ocarina of Time as well so that every page has them. echelon 11:02, 4 May 2007 (CDT)

## Site Problems

I'm having problems with the site, half the images aren't showing even thought they're there and it's changing skins to a very very basic one, does any1 know how to fix this.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 01:57, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

about 52/200 images are showing in categories
There's a problem with the media server which holds all the images and themes. It'll be fixed. --DrBob (Talk) 04:29, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
I'm not exactly sure what was the cause of the issue, but whatever it was, it's now fixed.--Dan 08:11, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
Was thttpd down? I wonder if there's a way to check whether or not it is actively running so that if it ever crashes we can restart it. I do know for a fact that when the server restarts thttpd fails to restart. :( echelon 23:20, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
Well I think it's down again now but it's not as bad as before.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 02:14, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
I just restarted thttpd. I don't know what the issue is. :( I'm thinking of making a PHP script (for Sysops) that allows people without server access to run the startup command using php's exec() or something similar. (I wonder if that would work? I'll look into it when I wake up tomorrow.) echelon 02:31, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
Well it's gone again, (I thought it was just my PC 'till I looked at images).Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 16:09, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

## Undo Revision

When you press the undo link when looking between diffs the summary is wrong, it says (Undo revision 128080 by Special:Contributions/Rocky (User talk:Rocky)) whereas it should say (Undo revision 128080 by Rocky (talk)), can sum1 change this please.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 03:55, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

done. -- Mason11987 (Talk - Contributions) 07:26, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
Great, thanks!
Sorry, is there a way to stop it saying that I haven't provided a summary even though the text is in the box.Thanks.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 15:53, 28 April 2007 (CDT)
Thats a check box in your settings. Its there for people like me who are anal about always filling out the summary field. --Argash 17:52, 29 April 2007 (CDT)
That's actually the problem, I've got the box checked but when I use the undo feature, it puts a lot of text in the box but a message appears saying that I haven't provided a summary, try it out here, feel free to save.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 00:44, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
It worked for me just now. Are you using MonoBook instead of Blue Cloud? Sounds like a JS error or something. GarrettTalk 00:55, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
It's probably IE6 then (sigh). It still happens for me, just a question though, do you have prompt me when not entering an edit summary ticked in preferences?Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 01:08, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
No I don't, but the Blue Cloud-specific JS equivalent kicks in anyway. You could always try adding an arbitrary character (a space, even) to see if that is enough to satisfy the check. GarrettTalk 03:24, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
Actually, the js is enabled in MonoBook as well, and it requires at least five characters for the summary to be "valid" (no idea why its messing up with undo revision though, as it has an auto summary) --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 08:06, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
Actually the limit is only in FF, I only realised when I tried editing in FF, that's why I use "more" in my to do, there's no warning or anything, also my summary now doesn't give a warning.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 10:20, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

## Determining Completion Level

Just out of curiosity how is a guides completion level determined? Is it just each editors best guess? Or is there a formal process? --Argash 23:36, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Right now its just editor best guess. We have very generalized levels at the moment; but its based on the walkthrough part of the article. Refer to Category:Guides by completion stage for more information. Later on, when the community gets much larger I assume we will start having a review process/committee groups start going through and actually assesing them. But for now its pretty simple, i.e. nothing, something, more than just a little, almost done, done. --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 23:42, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
I would have to agree. Right now we're not large enough to require the kind of bureaucracy that would mandate a committee or voting on completion level. For now, if there's a dispute the best way to settle it is to use the talk page or community portal. If you ever feel something doesn't match its completion level, just edit it. Be bold! echelon 15:18, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

## Mobile Phone games/genre

When working on ActRaiser I noticed that Wikipedia has the game listed under Mobile Phones as a platform, since Square Enix made a version of the game in 2003 for such a platform (according to Wikipedia). How do we accurately note this information? Should a general Mobile Phone genre be created? I don't have a cell phone, but what sort of software is involved? Does it make a difference? Do the cell phones themselves, the model or brand for instance, change anything besides availability of the games and software (engine)? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 20:40, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Category:Mobile. -- Prod (Talk) 20:41, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
Mmk. Ambiguity for the win. What should it be categorized under the game platform though? Mobile Phone or just Mobile? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 22:04, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
The problem with the genre is that the game will probably be very different so we would need a disambig page for the game and that would be annoying with games that are already done or half done.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 00:57, 27 April 2007 (CDT)
It's pretty much gaurenteed to be different, although since 2003 I assume much has developed in the way of cellphones. ActRaiser was a game that got reduced to a three level platformer. --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 01:34, 27 April 2007 (CDT)
Actually for something like this we could probably do ActRaiser (disambiguation) and link to it at the top of the main ActRaiser page. I say that since the SNES version is WAY more common and what people would most likely be looking for. Thats how disambig typically works on WP anyway and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't copy their policy on this. --Argash 08:54, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

## Interesting recent feedback

By no means would I ever suggest that we revert to an archaic single-page format. However, I am beginning to reconsider how important it is to stress the existence of information beyond what can be found on the page they are currently looking at. For this reason, I am strongly considering moving the TOC's that I have listed on each of the main pages for the guides that I have created above the introduction! And not simply move it, but expand upon it so that it's clear what information can be found. For example (I'm using Pac-Man here):

• Controls & Characters: Descriptions of the game's controls as well as every player and enemy found in the game.
• Gameplay tips: Learn the various features of the game, and survival techniques.
• Home version comparisons: Find pictures and descriptions of every home conversion of this game made, as well as comparisons of their differences.

...and so on. I'm not sure if this is overkill or not. I would prefer to leave the TOCs where they are, but perhaps that may lead to continued confusion over this issue. We know that the format we're using is good. I just wonder how effectively we are communicating this. How does everyone else feel? Thanks. Procyon (Talk) 13:00, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

Looks great, we'll have to redesign it for bigger guides but it looks OK. IMO I think that we should make the TOC link stand out a bit more, on my first visit to the Chips Challenge page, the AGN was really confusing, It took me a few more visits to work out about the show button.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 13:30, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
I think this makes things just look really messy, and totally detracts from our vision of being organized. The newer game ToCs (as seen in OoT) have done a great job in attracting people to view other areas of the guide, mainly because they are near the top of the page and receive lots of screen space. Not in an entirely critical sense, your proposed format isn't clean as the descriptions, since each description are clumped next to each respective link and makes it stand out no more than any other paragraph. If our goal for the ToCs is to make them newbie-friendly and accessible, we should work with a system that already exists and works well, that ToC system being the one employed in the OoT guide. Immediately, anyone can recognize that it is the one stop place to navigate around the guide as it resembles a Table of Contents in a regular book, and anyone who has ever been through school or have seen a book to the least will be familar with this system, and thus know how to use it. The pros of this system go on and on and on, but I'd rather stop here and let you figure the rest out to your heart's content.--Dan 21:49, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
I for one really dislike having descriptors next to ToC links; its messy, unnecessary unless you're brand new to the site and don't understand what "introduction" or "getting started" or "controls" or "characters" means. When someone goes to a page, the top should have a small note in italics if there is any confusion about another page that contains related but separate information; i.e. character bios versus move lists. Luckily we often make the information duplicated so that both pages contain the same thing. Reiteration is quite powerful, but unnecessary if excessive. --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 22:11, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
Dan, I completely agree with you about LOZ:OOT (although I personally hate how much white space exists between the intro and the TOC. We should get at least one image in there to fill the space.) But that format only works well for guides that require such a large TOC, like OOT, or Pokemon, etc. It's much more difficult to generate that many pages for older games, and at the same time, we want to avoid throwing all of the content on one page. The result is the 4~6 or so page template that I've been following. I'm just not certain how to highlight the TOC more than it is (in both navs and in the center of the page.) Maybe it really is just a matter of experience. Maybe there is a "learning curve" to using StrategyWiki, and some casual users may not catch on unless they visit frequently enough. I don't think that's an adequate conclusion to the matter, but I don't have any other ideas. Procyon (Talk) 22:46, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
I'm blank on ideas as well, but I do know for one thing that if we don't call something a Table of Contents and instead call it "In depth", you won't find many people using that as a ToC. It has to be made so that if we wish to introduce the idea that there are more pages beyond the first, we have to have a uniform way to do that (aside from the AGN), and calling every bunch of links a ToC will help. Of course, small game ToCs might not have to be in the exact same layout as can be found in the OoT guide, but things surely become easier for the newcomer.--Dan 08:33, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

I just had an idea for newcomers and non-registered users: we could put a notice below the nav bar on the left that says some basic stuff like "Blue links lead to other pages and red links are currently empty." It might help... And by newcomers I mean like display the message for the first ten days after registration. --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 18:18, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

I haven't read all the comments, but we have the {{Continue Nav}}'s usually after intro sections (or should be adding those, link in the bar just below the edit box). Perhaps we should also clarify the One game, one guide slogan. -- Prod (Talk) 19:03, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

You know, when you're right, you're right. Prod and Dan have both provided me with rather constructive criticism, and although it will take some time to apply these to all of my guides, I will change "in depth" to "Table of Contents", and make sure all Introductions are followed by a Continue Nav. I am also contemplating moving things like the box art galleries to the home version comparison pages if a guide contains one. I'll work on Pac-Man first and get your thoughts when I'm complete. Procyon (Talk) 19:36, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

### Reformat test

OK, I redid the Pac-Man front page in an attempt to incorporate the ideas presented here. I moved the box art gallery to each appropriate section of the home version comparisons. Not sure if switching between a left and right picture for 1-2 images, and a gallery for 3+ images was a great idea. Anyway, please take a look at the main page and the home versions page, and share your thoughts. Thanks guys! Procyon (Talk) 22:25, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

I think it looks great. Additionally, your thoughts would come in handy for the StrategyWiki:Guide and applicable policies. --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 22:54, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

### Reformatting complete

Wow, that was draining. I've touched up every one of the guides that I started. I still don't feel like it's perfect, but I may never feel that way, and it will have to do for now. On the plus side, the fact that there are more pages to each guide should be very readily apparent. On the minus side, I worry that anything below the TOC will be ignored; it seems silly to me that the Continue Nav and the TOC are right next to each other; and if a reader scrolls all the way down to the bottom (not that there's much down there anymore), the reader has to scroll back up to get to the TOC or the Continue Nav. I would consider moving the Continue Nav to the bottom and treat it like a Footer Nav, but I don't wanna edit all of those pages again. At least, not for a while. :P Procyon (Talk) 21:01, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

## Math Tag, doesn't work?

I tried using the math tag and it failed: ${\displaystyle This=Fail}$

Is something wrong? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 17:06, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

It might be disabled... If that's the case, it should really be removed from the toolbar. --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 18:10, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
Math? Who needs math on a site like this? :P--Dan 19:39, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
That requires TeX. I also doubt that we need it. :P echelon 01:06, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

## Mediawiki Bug

Take a look and scroll down here, MS rambot.png's file is broken because it's a gif and it was uploaded as a .png, is there any way to fix this apart from renaming the file because it will probably happen again.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 06:27, 6 May 2007 (CDT)

The only way to correct that sort of error to me, is to just delete the image and re-upload it with the correct extension. If there is another way of correcting this, please correct me if I am wrong. Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 12:55, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
Yeah, I'd just like to know if any1 knows a better solution instead of renaming them because it will probably happen again, Keep it for an example for now and when this gets archived I'll rename it.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 13:21, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
To answer your questions: 1) There is currently no better/easier way than renaming, and 2)I've already re-uploaded it here, but am keeping the previous one until this gets archived. --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 15:06, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
There was a problem so I decided not to re-upload it, I don't think that the MS monsters template covers .gifs so don't delete it until we have the template changed.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 15:12, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
I fixed it by converting it to PNG. That's easier than retrofitting a template to handle a merely decorative GIF animation. GarrettTalk 00:12, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
To note, the template can already handle alternate file names (in the docs). But the image isn't really needed since all the other images are regular non-animated. -- Prod (Talk) 00:34, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

## StrategyWiki:Layout

I'm thinking that we should get rid of this policy (and the sub-paging policy) and instead have [[StrategyWiki:Guide/Organization]] as the new policy, as it is more up-to-date and accessible (linked to indirectly from nearly every user's talk page). Let me know what you think (the policies are at StrategyWiki:Guide/Layout and [[StrategyWiki:Sub-paging]]). --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 11:46, 6 May 2007 (CDT)

I don't think we should exactly get rid of the Layout policy. Maybe we could merge it with the Organization policy? Lunar Knight (Talk to me + Contribs) 12:58, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
The organization page is (a) not yet a policy and (b) pretty much an updated version of what is covered in layout. If you really want to keep layout, it will have to be updated (for example, we don't subpage the walkthrough pages under /Walkthrough/, just under the game's name). --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 13:08, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
Although we don't Ryan, that information isn't noted on the Organization policy (I skimmed it, no header examples were used so I assume headers aren't on there). Merge! --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 15:38, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
Sadly we can't use `[[../]]` on the pages, the transclusion of the AGN messes it up, on Pokémon G/S/C it looks ok in the TOC but on any other page, the links are broken.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 12:30, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

## Time to work on guide completion?

I did a manual count of guides by completion stage the other day and this is what I found:

Empty Sparse Maturing Thorough Complete
505 227 95 67 152

I'm thinking it might be time to start going through the guides and verifying and updating the completion levels to move those numbers to the right as much as possible. I know that the active user base is still quite small but IMHO this is important as the number of completed guides will directly impact the sites usability and thus traffic will increase and the user base will increase.

Now I want to say I DO NOT think we need to start a formalized committee to start reviewing the guides. However I do think that the time has come to start codifying exactly what each level means so that guide developers can start updating their guides. Obviously every guide is different but we need to start laying out what items most guides should have, for example:

• Generic requirements
• Main guide page has the TOC
• Main guide page has an infobox
• Main guide page is properly categorized
• Main guide page has a concise introduction paragraph
• Main guide page has {{Continue Nav}}
• All guide pages have {{All Game Nav}}
• All guide pages have {{Footer Nav}}
• All guide pages use proper english spelling AND grammer
• Walk through is clearly outlined from beginning to end of game
• Genre specific
• RPG guides have item listings
• RPG guides have spell listings
• RPG guides have race/class/character descriptions (in game stat form)
• FPS guides have weapon descriptions and strategies.
• Fighting games have full move lists
• Platform games item lists
• RTS & TBS guides have unit / race listings
• RTS & TBS guides have technology listings

• Characters
• Commands
• Game Overview
• FAQs
• Walkthrough
• Items
• Secrets

RPG

• Characters
• FAQs
• Walkthrough
• Sidequests
• Enemies
• Items
• Weapons
• Armor
• Spells

Racing

• Controls
• Cars
• Tracks
• Cups

Fighting

• Controls
• Moves
• Tactics
• Tips and Tricks

This list is by no means complete and definitely should be worked on it's meant only to provide a springboard. Once this is done guide developers can create a list (which could be on the guides talk page) of what all their guide should have versus whats already done and determine with a much greater level of accuracy how complete their guide is. Additionally this will ensure that when the time comes to form a review committee they will already have a base to start from.

--Argash 15:28, 6 May 2007 (CDT)

I approve. Additionally all main pages must have Template:Continue Nav. --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 15:41, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
"All guide pages use proper english spelling AND grammer". Did anyone else get the irony in this sentence? :-P I try my best to make 'full' pages when I start a new game page (boxart, release dates, systems, etc), and for some of the linkies on the ToC blued out, even if it's just an 'outline' of spells and characters, just that it's a mammothian task to undertake on your own and you need more than a bit of drive to complete the really tedious stuff (for example, the Loot list in Final Fantasy XII, which is so boring I don't think I can finish the list without losing every shred of sanity I possess). We do what we can, but we need more people to get everything done - a problem shared is a problem halved some say, and this is particularly true here. It's a hell of a lot easier to complete, say, spell lists when you're only doing the MP cost and prices when somebody else is putting down where you can find the spell, etc.--Froglet 03:47, 7 May 2007 (CDT)
Heh that's why guides need to be spell checked :) I do understand what your saying about item lists and such though (I'm going to have that facing me at some point with the NWN guide). I'm thinking that what we'll have to do is weight each element of any given guide and place the most weight on the walkthrough. My thinking is while we should delineate between a fully completed guide and a guide with a full walkthrough but not much else, we still need to let people know that those walkthroughs are complete. For example lets take FFXII, the most important thing a reader will ask himself is: "Will it take me from start to finish of the game?"
Now lets look at how this question will be answered depending on the state of the guide. If all the spell lists, item lists, armor lists, weapon lists and character lists but nothing else is completed, then the guide will essentially be 50% complete but the answer to this question will be no. Now lets say that the full walkthrough is complete but nothing else is, the guide is still essentially 50% complete but now the answer is yes. Thus while both guides might be 50% complete one is infinitely more valuable to the reader.
What we need to do then is come up with a way to quantify which guides can say yes to that all important question and then list that number on the main page and proudly proclaim it right alongside the number of guides that not only say yes to that question but are fully complete. Those are the two most important numbers that every person who visits the site wants and deserves to see! --Argash 04:27, 7 May 2007 (CDT)
Well if it's like that then can't we have a completion level on the walkthrough link?Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 05:02, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

## FF7 footer thoughts

Currently the pages inside the FF7 guide use instead of {{Footer Nav}} do we want to leave this as is or update it to the proper footer template? --Argash 01:20, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

Things like this are kind of cool. One thing I like about GameFAQs that I'd like to see on StrategyWiki as it continues to expand is per-guide originality and flair. Ocarina of Time has it with the Gold Skulltula sidequest bars (though the blue on green link problem needs a fix..) The great thing is that so long as our conventions are mostly consistent between each guide, I think it's great for certain guides to exhibit a uniqueness about themselves that speak for the game (and the people that play them). That said, nothing should ever be too inconsistent. Finally, on the issue of FFV itself, I am not sure if it is completely clear as to how it is to be used. Are those chapters within the game itself? (If so, that may work just fine.) echelon 00:01, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

## Not-Exactly Game Guides

Is it against policy to add information about software for games systems that aren't exactly for games? I'm not talking about things like Windows Vista, but I've lately been thinking about creating a page for the Nintendo DS Opera Browser, for clumsy people like me who lose the instruction manual and forget how to change the settings. So far I haven't lost the instruction manual, but I was wondering what the policy was on such things (after a mate of mine yes, lost the instruction manual and had to go to great lengths to figure out how to change the settings on her Nintendo DS). My reasoning that it should be here is that it's a piece of DS software, you could potentially use it to play games on, there are instructions that can be complicated in using it, and we also put in 'Controls' sections to game guides, so this could just be a sort of extended controls section or something like that. I was wondering what everybody else thought.--Froglet 07:50, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

Well we've got a guide to MAME (An emulator) so I guess mosgt guides are all right as long as we don't get really silly and do a guide to Ubuntu on a PS3 or anything like that.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 08:01, 7 May 2007 (CDT)
So long as you don't plagerize go ahead. I've created the NHN/Hangame registration guide to help Hangame.co.jp players who don't speak Japanese. --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 16:57, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

## Image troubles

I've imported Image:Broom icon.svg and Image:Broom icon.png from wiki commons. The SVG shows up but doesn't have any transparency. The PNG version doesn't show up at all. Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? --Argash 22:55, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

It's not you. The image server was not responding to requests at the moment. Dan should be resetting it as I type this, and the problem should be solved momentarily. Procyon (Talk) 23:16, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

Why aren't any of our images showing up on google, we have around 3 and 2 are from strategywiki.net, see here--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 14:56, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

I don't see any from strategywiki.net... --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 13:22, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
I found them about a week ago, now they're gone, I forgot to post (I also did that with the Math Tag :P). Also look at the America's army pic's URL, it's actually from Americasarmy.com and it's linkd to by URL, see here on our site so we don't have one image now, it's a bit bad really.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 15:17, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
Note that this is only in google, see here and here just note that some of these are from .net--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 15:19, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
Maybe it has something to do with metatags/file names? The one interesting thing I found from looking into this is this little article on Ech... --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 15:45, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
I haate that wiki article. :P echelon 23:55, 14 May 2007 (CDT)

## Does anyone else think the new front page stats are too complex?

Anyone?--Dan 22:31, 14 May 2007 (CDT)

Only if you don't understand "encompassing." --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 22:40, 14 May 2007 (CDT)
I don't think the number of pages stat has as much relevance for us, the other two are noteworthy. -- Prod (Talk) 22:43, 14 May 2007 (CDT)
I'm torn between removing the numarticles statistic and keeping it. On the one hand, it looks like each guide may only have 6 pages if you do the math. On the other hand, without it it looks like we could be a wiki consisting of nothing more than incomplete 1-page guides (which we are most definitely not!) echelon 23:34, 14 May 2007 (CDT)
I think we should delete it for now really, this statistic will probably push newcomers away and we don't want that. We do have quite a few good quality 1-page guides though.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 23:44, 14 May 2007 (CDT)
How about some nicely rounded numbers? (Floor rounding using modulus so we don't report more than we have.) Rounded numbers have a tendency to look more aesthetic (certainly less distracting) and can be read smoothly. Take a look now and see what you think. echelon 23:52, 14 May 2007 (CDT)
Seems good apart from we still have 1000 6-page guides and special:statistics doesn't show 6000 anywhere.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 00:00, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
That number comes from a `{{PAGESINCATEGORY}}` count of Category:Sub-pages. It's a truer count than Special:Statistics' modest estimate. GarrettTalk 01:31, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
Well, shouldn't we link there then.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 01:50, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
I would say not. That category's sole purpose is to make Special:Uncategorizedpages usable, and won't be as understandable to a visitor in the same way as a category of individual game entries. I think there's a MediaWiki: page controlling the text on Special:Statistics so it should be possible to append those counts there. I'll look into that. GarrettTalk 02:39, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
It's here, it's there with text in even though it's red. I don't want to edit in case I mess it up.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 10:17, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
Ah, thanks. The page didn't exist, but MediaWiki automatically pastes in the default text for whatever MediaWiki: page you start editing. I've replaced the pages count with the number of guides (derived from Category:Games) as well as the total number of pages (derived from Category:Games and Category:Sub-pages). See what you think. GarrettTalk 16:16, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
I'm not really in favor of the new stats since they don't change as much as the original stats do, and if they don't change often, there's really no point in putting them on the front page.--Dan 19:11, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
It is useful to see about how much of everything we have, but I think we should floor off the count at the tens place instead of the hundreds. Also, I really think that we need to somehow incorporate a link to Special:Statistics somewhere in it, as it was removed when we removed the "legitimate" pages count. --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 19:57, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
Even if we were to do that, our new stats wouldn't be as /effective/ as the old ones. Page counts have been used across almost every wiki you can find to give the user an idea of how big a wiki is. Sure, it could mean nothing if all of the pages in the page count were useless stubs, but at least it tells the user that the wiki is active and a lot of work went in to it up to this point. Does anyone have a problem with me bringing back the page count?--Dan 14:02, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

## Wikipedia Article

When are we actually going to put this on Wikipedia? We've had it sitting there for ages and I think it would be a good idea to put it on now, it will get us a bit more popularity and will give the site a boost, does anyone have any objections?--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 15:40, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

If you think the page meets the criteria outlined in WP:WEB, I'd say go ahead. If not, it is likely to get deleted again (as that was the reason for the first deletion--see here). --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 16:34, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

## Continue Nav Placement and Compilation Completion Status

Ok, so does the Continue Nav go below the game information and above the story section? Or below the story section? Whatever the policy, it should be noted in the template docs.

Compilations, such as Sega Games Can Vol. 1 shouldn't be noted as completed, since the games they contain aren't completed. Until then, they should be at completion stage 1 because the guides pertaining to that game (the compilation) aren't complete. Think of it in literal terms; you have a book containing various works, however no real content exists beyond the forward, cover and publishing information... Isn't very accurate is it? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 02:41, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

I disagree about the compilation status. Each guide's completion stage should reflect that guide and only that guide, regardless of any content that it may be conditional upon. It indicates that while the guides that the compilation points to may not be complete, there is little-to-nothing needed to add to the compilation's explanation and is complete unto itself. By enforcing a rule that a compilation's page is only as complete as the guides it points to, you create a situation where a compilation may be created or edited prior to the guides that it points to being completed. Then the guides are completed, but who is responsible for updating the status of the compilation page? It's not a fair policy, nor is it a reliable one. The point of a compilation page is to discuss what games a compilation contains, as well as any additional features or game play not found in the original titles, not to reflect the completion of the guides that it points to. Procyon (Talk) 09:12, 18 May 2007 (CDT)
I agree with what Procyon says, mainly for the logistical problems (updating the number once the sub guides are finished). As for the continue navs, my view is that they should go high enough that they show up on the first screen when the page is loaded, but as low as possible. The closest location to this is right after the introduction, but usually before the story. -- Prod (Talk) 09:16, 18 May 2007 (CDT)
I have adopted the Continue Nav policy that Prod explain above in all of my guides. The only problem that I have with it now, is that when I get to the bottom of the first page, I have to scroll back up for either the TOC or the CN. There's nothing at the bottom of the main page that allows me to move on to another page, especially since we don't put Footer Navs on front pages. I know that ordinarily, front pages aren't supposed to be that long to begin with, but it's a minor pet peeve that I have.

## Broken Image (Literally)

Here is the image, I think it happened because it had a bad name but how doI rename it if I can't select it? P.S the image is Image:Windwaker-link.gif TLOZ- the Wind Waker--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 13:35, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

I'll take care of it. -- Prod (Talk) 13:39, 18 May 2007 (CDT)
Thanks P.S The link is still there and works (Or doesn't as the case may be).--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 14:37, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

## Search Engine Rankings

[1] I wonder who's ranked #10 on Yahoo! for strategy guides... Oh wait. We are. We're 24 on Google from a sad 36 one week ago. We're moving up quickly now that we gained some momentum. You guys are doing a great job. I don't think we'd be anywhere close to that if it weren't for the constant added efforts of you guys spreading the word. Now let's get to #1! --ConfusedSoul 01:22, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

## N64 Controller Buttons

I think these could be easily done by someone willing; just get the gamecube buttons, recolour them, perhap's get the wii's Z button and recolour it, and also recolouring the Wii's C button and plonking generic arrows onto the end would be easily done and effective. --Muzer 03:08, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

I'll give it a go, got any good pics of a N64 though, they'll help a lot.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 02:37, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
I can tell you the official button colours if that's what you mean. If not, I'm sure they'll be plenty on google images. I do have an N64 but my photography is crap and I don't know where the camera or card reader is :p
OK, here goes:
The C buttons are yellow and circular, about 1cm in diameter (that's from one side of the circle to the other, intersecting the centre) File:N64-button-C.png
The B button is green and circular, and about 1.5cm in diameter
The A button is blue and the same size and shape as B
The start button is red and circular, and about 1.25cm in diameterFile:N64-start.png
The analogue stick is light grey and 1.5cm in diameter
The D-PAD is dark grey and 1cm from the tip of 1 point to the centre. The points of the cross are also 0.5cm wide
The L and R triggers are also dark grey, the same colour as the D-Pad, and have the bottom side straight, the top side sloping downwards to the left with L and right with R. They are 3.75cm long, and the thin side of them (the left side for L, the right side for R) is 0.75cm wide, and the thich side (the right side for L, the left side for R) is 1.5cm wide.
The Z trigger is also the same dark grey and is rectangualar in the "portrait" position (ie height=longest dimension). It is 2cm high and 1cm wide.
There, I hope that's not too much info. --Muzer 03:08, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
Thanks, I'll add them here as I do them--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 03:59, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
Actually, now I'll put them here--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 14:22, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

## Requests for Checkuser

Is there a way that we can do a checkuser on a few users:

I think that this vandalism has gone on for a bit too long now, I'd suggest banning the IP with account creation for 2 months because we've had too many attacks on the MapleStory Pages.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 03:02, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

CheckUser caused some issues with editing that I never quite figured out. I'll give it another go tonight, but don't get your hopes up. echelon 17:45, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
If there's been persistent vandalism from this IP address, just ban it permanently. People like that never change. (And no, I'm not back; just popping in for an hour. :-( ) --DrBob (Talk) 11:03, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
The thing is that I can't find out what the IP address is to block it, it only says #126 and #119 in the ip block list and blocking the IP only lasts for 1 day.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 11:10, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

## Strategy guide on Wikibooks

See main page. It uses colon convention (so it's harder to find all the pieces), but it looks fairly comprehensive and might be a nica addition.

BTW, I can't seem to recieve my password, but this is SB_Johnny from Wikibooks. SB Johnny again 05:23, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

Does anyone have any problems with me importing it here?--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 06:07, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

I'll try to do this one (later today or tomorrow). Looks like it might be a bit messy due to the Wikibooks:Civ:The Basics being a common page for "many" guides. I think the whole Wikibooks:Category:Civ might be good for deletion, but I haven't really gone through the pages, so can't say for sure. -- Prod (Talk) 17:29, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

I'll most of it then.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 01:07, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
I'll take care of it. I'm a big fan of the game and the pages need a fair bit of rework to merge in nicely. I'm doing the whole Civ series at the same time, since the basics page for one needs to be "shared" between the games. -- Prod (Talk) 11:04, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
Okay sure, it was being a bit of a pain. Thanks. --Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 12:57, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

## Pokemon strategy guide

I wanted to note that it seems odd that Pokemon Ruby and some other Pokemon games have ridiculously long guides, some games (such as Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness) have absolutely nothing on them. I think it would be helpful to many Pokemon gamers if something like that was created due to the large amount of Pokemon fans. Sincerely,Myth 18:55, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

A lot of the Pokémon guides that have a lot of content were (or are) collaborations of the month/promising guides of the month or are being frequently added to by active contributors. If you want to work on a different guide that doesn't have that much content in it, just jump in and start editing (actually, look over the other pages first to see how the guide is styled before you start editing). You don't need anyone's permission to work on any guide whatsoever, so if you feel you can improve something, do it, be bold! If you would like to draw more attention to it, put it up for nomination at StrategyWiki:Collaboration of the Month. --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 19:23, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

Unfortunately, we are relatively short staffed. All we can do is contribute to the guides which interest us, and hope someone adds information to the guides we need. The only other suggestion I can make is to add your request to the StrategyWiki:Requested guides (we need a better link to that somewhere....). Can't promise it'll be done, but it may get more visibility. -- Prod (Talk) 20:58, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

"Unfortunately, we are relatively short staffed" - *Nominates for biggest understatement of the decade.* ;-) At the moment, mate, it seems that there's nobody who is interested to write the guide for it. I would offer my services as a guide writer to help you out, just that I don't own the game (although I did have intentions of getting it, it's no longer being sold at the shops), and I also have a few loose ends (ie, finishing the FFXII walkthrough) to tie up. Try GameFAQs - whilst we are often in hot water with them after some twit decides to plaguirise copyrighted works and tack 'em up here from there, they do have quality stuff. And, once you've finished the game and have beaten the baddies, how about write the guide for us so nobody else has to go and find a Gale of Darkness page that has no walkthrough? Good luck either way!--Froglet 09:47, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
Also, if you can find a walkthrough in GameFAQ's that says in its legal section "I give permission for anybody to do whatever they want with this FAQ" or something similar, consider that your permission to put it up here (as it IS legal and NOT plagiarism then). Another thing you can do is contact the people that wrote the FAQ via e-mail explaining that you wish to use their FAQ (be specific on which one) on StrategyWiki (with a link to the site or at least the URL), saying that the FAQ would more than likely be modified to fit our style of formatting and that StrategyWiki is licensed under the GFDL 1.2 (with a link to the license or at least a URL). I've done that a few times before, and that is actually how I got the enemy list section in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (see this to see what I exactly wrote). --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 10:01, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

## Covering unplayable games?

A few days ago I came across Neverwinter Nights (AOL). This relates to a game that's no longer playable in any form (even via emulation). Now, my question is, should we have general information about games that are no longer playable for the sake of completeness, or exclude them because our stated purpose of supplying strategies can't extend to these games? GarrettTalk 05:59, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Normally I'd say keep them, they may be useful someday but that page isn't a guide at all, there's no strategy guide to it, it's just been taken from wikipedia, so that should be deleted.Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 07:23, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
Yeah, the "guide" doesn't even give a strategy to playing it, and if it did, nobody would look at it (as it can't be played). The article was imported from Wikipedia based off its history, but it does not meet our quality standards for a guide's front page nor our guide standards period. Based off of those two reasons, I say that it should be deleted. --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 09:13, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
Well, that one should be deleted but I think, that say the guide is over a certain length and/or completion level then it should stay. Probably 10 good content pages at the very least and definitely kept if it's got decent images.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 09:22, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

At the bottom of the page, it says there are remakes of the game that are playable (haven't tested). Just because we can't put up strategies for a game, doesn't mean it shouldn't be here. If the guide comes down to just saying the game isn't playable, that should be fine. The fact that it was imported from wikipedia means that someone looked at it ;). Just because the page isn't at proper standards, means it needs cleanup, not deletion. No offense Rocky, but we should almost never delete guides, irrespective of size. Finally, this page does need cleanup, to keep only the important game related info (and getting rid of all the useless wikilinks and stuff like that). -- Prod (Talk) 11:09, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

I've had a brief look at the remakes; one uses the new NWN's engine and the other follows the original's look and feel but adds a lot of new content--I don't think either could really be thought of as the same game. If we're going to keep things like this we need an "unplayable" template, possibly with a picture of a joystick with an X over it or something. GarrettTalk 16:34, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
How about ? (Image scaled down to better fit inline). --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 19:23, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
Yeah, that's a possibility. While looking on Commons for a suitable controller image to put a cross over I found this: . What I like about this one is that far less of the underlying image is obscured making it more obvious what the thing underneath is. Also to consider is that gamepads are now far more common than joysticks, so it may be more immediately recognisable as a game controller. GarrettTalk 20:03, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
I like yours better, it looks much nicer. --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 20:04, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

I've created Template:Unplayable. The wording and icon placement definitely aren't perfect, so feel free to mess with it. GarrettTalk 20:14, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Do we really need to blatantly say "we don't have content"? I would think that a note in the intro paragraph should be enough to tell the person that it can't be played any more. Maybe even a tag on the side. But I think a banner at the top is a bit excessive (maybe bottom?). -- Prod (Talk) 20:25, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
I agree it's obnoxious (I based it on {{copyvio}} for convenience). It might look OK at about the size of {{sect-stub}} (although still with some sort of border). The reason why I feel it should be relatively noticeable is because it helps explain why such a short page can be classed as stage 4 (assuming we treat such pages as complete) without covering controls/items/etc. It's very unusual for a game to be unplayable even via emulation, and a template conveys the idea a lot quicker than whole paragraphs about the game being taken offline. Alternately, we could relegate a smaller version of this to the top of ==Gameplay== or whatever section, although that goes against the current tradition of putting such templates only at the top or on the side. GarrettTalk 20:51, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
I've made it far smaller now. This version is still a bit awkward, but better than the screaming banner it was before. GarrettTalk 21:05, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
So wait, if a game has another version playable, we don't say anything? Gunster: Rain of Bullets was canceled but the Japanese version still exists. So... I understand this discussion to just be about games that are no longer available, but what about these little nuances? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 21:42, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
It depends on whether that other version is essentially the same game, or is different enough to be considered a separate game. If it's the same that version would be the one being covered, whereas if it's different it would be covered separately with the unplayable version being marked with this template. We cover Pokemon games in pairs, for instance, because the differences between them are so minor that they are treated as a single title. GarrettTalk 23:54, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

## Spectrobes/Items

Can someone please fix "other items" in the Spectrobes/items section? I could not get the prettytable to work. Sincerely, Myth 18:11, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Taken care of. Procyon (Talk) 21:54, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

## Infobox

Is it just me or is there a problem with the infobox, it can't take two ratings by the same company (e.g here) the ESRB template had to be used twice for some reason, is there a way to fix this?--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 01:38, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Probably not. {{ESRB}} and the like rely on #switch: for their functionality, so doing this would require adding every conceivable combination and still doesn't permit specification of which version each rating applies to. If there is a solution it's probably too complicated for the comparatively few circumstances requiring dual ratings. GarrettTalk 04:41, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
Couldn't we just add like {{{ESRB T Comment}}} etc. for each one and place the comment after the normally displayed text (like next to "(Teen)")??? --Notmyhandle (talk contribs) 22:15, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
I really don't see the use in modifying the template for only a few special cases. The template works fine as-is (even with the special cases, they just need a bit of thought to do it), so it really doesn't need to change. The only potential use of using comments is to explain why it got that rating (which can be found on the game box's back usually), but then it would probably only be {{{ESRBcomment}}} or {{{ESRBreason}}} (parameters have to be one "word"). --Ryan SchmidtTalk - Contribs 10:12, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

## Incorrect Pokemon Type

It says here that Bulbasaur is Grass/Poison. This is incorrect. Only Ivysaur and Venasaur are. Bulbasaur is Grass only. I'll change it if no one else does. Sincerely, Myth 18:41, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Be bold! I'll go ahead and do it for you if you haven't. ;) echelon 00:19, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
Please discuss it on the talk page before doing anything because in Ruby it's definitely grass/Poison.--Rocky (Talk - Contributions) 01:53, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
Whoops! Shows you what I know. echelon 18:22, 30 May 2007 (CDT)