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Action RPG sub-genre

Hello. I created the Category:Action RPG page, as a sub-category of the Category:RPG genre. Can I ask to check if it's worth keeping it and add games in this category, or if it would be better to delete it? --Abacos (talk) 14:46, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

My view is that the Action RPG category really is just an RPG game with Action elements, which is satisfied by keeping it in both Action and RPG categories. The only other merged category I can think of is Action-adventure, which is wildly different from what we have as Adventure games (point-and-click). Maybe we need to start listing definitions of what each of these genres is so that it's clear for everyone. What would we consider the difference between an Action game and an Action-adventure game? -- Prod (talk) 15:08, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Good: writing down definitions to solve conflicts is exactly my philosophy (but I'm afraid it can sometimes be boring to read). I'll write what I consider my understanding of the definitions (see also: List of SNES RPGs).

I consider a Role-Playing (video) Game a video game that has the following three characteristics:
1. Interaction with NPCs and online players, and subsequent development of plot;
2. Freedom of exploration, and all dungeons accessed from an overworld (or they are interconnected);
3. Permanent upgrades of the attributes of the playable characters (often depending on Experience points and levels, but not necessarily limited to this).
I consider an Action game a game that lacks at least two of the three above.
I consider Tactical games as a completely separate genre (i.e. not RPG), since their archetype is chess.
Some sub-genres of RPGs:
- According to the combat system, I sub-divide RPGs in two large groups: Turn-based RPGs and Action RPGs.
- Turn-based RPGs can be further sub-divided in Japanese/Consolle style (emphasis on #1: plot) and American/Computer style (emphasis on #2: exploration and #3: "body-building").
- I consider Roguelike RPGs those where dungeons are randomly generated (emphasis on #2: exploration), regardless of combat system.
- In some RPGs, #3 applies not to the playable character, but to creatures that follow him (e.g. Pokemon). I minted the name "Breeding RPG" or "Herding RPG", but I never wrote it down before.

All this is my personal understanding, and it is susceptible of discussion at leisure. If my understanding of a genre or sub-genre is in conflict with its common definition, I think this could be the time and place to talk about all genre definitions. --Abacos (talk) 16:03, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Before expanding further, we typically adhere to Wikipedia definitions, albeit with our preference to list the elements of the game rather than a unified genre name. For example, Shooter vs. Tactical shooter. Wikipedia's action RPG definition is no better than us separating this category into the two elements, action and RPG. Most of the games discussed on the wikipedia page are hack and slash games, which we have a special category for because they are very defined. Games like the seikendensetsu (mana) series and tales series could be put into the unified "Action RPG" combined sub-genre. However, we come to a point where an important question arises: do we want our categories to be broad and inclusive, or exclusive and specific? We have typically kept them in larger, "parent" genres. Also, creating action RPG as a subgenre will create a few hundred edits to go through all of the games that have both action and RPG on their main pages. I don't really use our categories to search for games, so I can't decide what is most effective, or if it matters. The one benefit to sub-genres is that you actually get well-grouped titles so particular tastes in games can more easily be explored. Also, our DPL code inside the {{Genre}} template works best with smaller categories so you can compare similar titles' popularity. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 17:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Prod, I believe it is time to reconsider our alternate, minimalistic, element-based categorization style (Action + RPG does not = Action RPG, though note that some games will still be Action + RPG). I think that sub-genres are more effective at helping people find similar games, and more accurate in classifying games. We should start each definitions on the category pages with what Wikipedia has, and then we can deviate to simplify and improve upon them, since we usually just have simple blurbs and a link to the full Wikipedia article. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 18:23, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Yea, I'm thinking the same thing. The original hope was to have intersections of categories provide the listings, but I'm not that big a fan of installing the Semantic extension. I agree that we should go the route of categories and sub-categories. As for copying Wikipedia, I think we should map out what they have here first, and then discuss what we should do, since I'm not sure how well their top level categories were planned out. -- Prod (talk) 02:07, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Current genre hierarchy

Here's the current listing of categories that we need to clean up. Currently, they all show up in Category:Genres as well as their own parent categories. I've made a few changes to go towards a more hierarchical structure, but I think there's more work to be done. The shooter section looks a bit weird with "Tactical shooter" showing up three times. Run and Gun also shows up twice. Ideally, I think these should only show up within one branch of the categories, in addition to the base Genres category. -- Prod (talk) 03:56, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Harvest Moon series

I have a question about the Harvest Moon series, should the proceed/followed be the order the game released or by handheld systems go without the console systems and console systems go without the handheld systems, because a bunch have the series in order by date such as The Legend of Zelda series and Mario Party series aren't like that just wanted to see if I'm the only one who thinks that or not. - RodKimble (talk) 03:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC0)

I don't know enough about the Harvest Moon series specifically to comment on this, but it really depends on the series. In some cases (like the Zelda) series, the game's continuity isn't really clear, and the order of games is by release date. In other cases, the games are meant to be split by system because the handheld versions are typically "side stories" or a gaiden (外伝^?), where the progress of the story doesn't flow directly from one system to the another. I think in this case, NMH's argument is that if the games within the series are split by some header level in the series template, the followed by/preceded by order should follow what the template says. That being said, there probably is some room for flexibility (as in allowed an in-universe followed by, as well as a chronological followed by). Pro cyon 03:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

We always create/lay out our series sequences in chronological order, by release date. However, in this case, it is not clear if the handheld games should be a sub-series (which would clearly keep them separate), or if we should revise the series template and put them all in one long order, like {{Mario}}. My initial assumption was that the handheld games were different, however, I have played the 64 game and I would assume that little to no continuity exists between any of the games. {{Harvest Moon}}. The handheld series does not need to remain. I see no evidence of a long chain of games. I do, however, see small series. E.g. The GB series (GB, 2 GBC, and 3 GBC), Wonderful Life pair, Friends of Mineral Town pair, DS/Cute, Islands pair. We could switch to chronological order, and the series template could be separated into groups like ungrouped or a series. It looks like I initially created the series template by copying Wikipedia's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Harvest_Moon . I am not sure we should change anything. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 16:23, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, all Harvest Moon games seem to be different besides the few sequels, so it looks like chronological might be the way to go, though I've never played a console Harvest Moon so I wouldn't know about any major differences. By this point I would assume there aren't any. --Wario^Talk 23:25, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, it would be nice if the Category:Harvest Moon page could explain the relationship (if any) between all of the titles. Then it would be easier to determine the correct course of action. RodKimble, is that something that you think you could work on for us? Pro cyon 00:20, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I am fine with re-sorting the whole thing and getting rid of console delegation. At least we can decide on that and get working on it and see how it goes. Let's go chronologically unless someone comes up with a story. It will look weird because some of the pairs will have their titles separated. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 00:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I can try my best I just have the console versions of Harvest Moon series I've only played some of the handheld versions Procyon. - RodKimble (talk) 01:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't worry, you don't have to play every game to work on the page. We all do research, whether it's on Wikipedia or somewhere else, before we type up descriptions for games and series. Pro cyon 02:20, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I have one more question on a Harvest Moon game, it says that Harvest Moon Online japan only game was closed on October 1st 2012 what does that mean. And is the only game that is on Windows, if that means that you can't play that game anymore should it be taken off. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RodKimble (talk • contribs) .

No. Provide as much information as you possibly can about it, and tag the article with the {{Unplayable}} tag. We still want to capture as much information as possible for historical purposes, and so that people can see how this particular title fit in to the rest of the series. Pro cyon 04:43, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Alright that's all I really know about Harvest Moon Online, because I really don't know that much about japan games but that's all I found about the game. And whoever did the Category:Harvest Moon great job I like it like that seems really organized to me at least. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RodKimble (talk • contribs) .

Rod, I revised {{Harvest Moon}} to be by year. You can see some minor issues at the end of the 2000s that could use some cleanup (like the trailing dot). It was an incomplete revision. Also, Category:Harvest Moon hasn't had anything done to it since 2009 and is really lacking (it doesn't even have a series template on it). The list at the very bottom is the automatically alphabetized list that results from putting the category on each main page. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 06:31, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I moved Harvest Moon: Frantic Farming to the 2000s, because everyone is saying it's a sequel to Harvest Moon: Island of Happiness. Also added Rune Factory 4 to the Spin-offs as well. - RodKimble (talk) 08:55, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I moved the Rune Factory games to their own series; but they are a sub-series of Harvest Moon so you will see that in the Harvest Moon series template. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 16:48, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes definitely agree with that one there, saw it in harvest moon category it is looking good - RodKimble (talk) 06:04, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Footers in hub-style walkthroughs

This has come up in copying over the Strife walkthrough, and in the process editing it to conform to the style of this wiki (e.g. a "spoilerpages" tag at the start of the page, instead of a "spoiler"/"endspoiler" tag pair around the main body), because one major style difference is that this wiki uses headers and footers, whilst the Doom Wiki (where I originally saved this walkthrough) does not. This is no problem in games such as Doom where the progression is linear (except for the one level per episode where there's a secret exit), but in hub-style games there could be (and often are) multiple previous/next levels for each page. In such circumstances, is it OK to use multiple footers to cover all such combinations?

I tried looking at the Hexen walkthrough for guidance, that being the only other hub-type game I'm familiar with, but nobody has written one yet, so it looks like I'm blazing the trail here. See Strife/Town for how I've tackled this problem. — RobertATfm (talk) 08:30, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

No offense to you Robert, but that's... that's just terrible. Our Footer Navs provide the ability to specify custom nexts and custom prevs, but for what you need, those won't do. I would not rely on the Footer Navs at all in this case, and write your own custom template. You can either generalize it so that it can be used across titles, or make it specific to Strife. But please, get rid of those Footer Navs, that's not at all how they were intended to be used. Wherever possible, they should point to the linear progression of the Walkthrough for the player, but when that's not possible, they should just point to the next "chapter" of the guide, whether that chapter immediately follows the current page or not. Pro cyon 13:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest using a list of links to all the next locations, maybe as a table. But the Footer Nav is best to only use for the next most "obvious" (or recommended) path. Generally we just match it to the ordering in the Table of Contents. -- Prod (talk) 14:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Because this problem is far from being unique to Strife, I think a generic template would be better than a specific one. One idea I've had is to make the prevpage and nextpage parameters conditional, so that if entered as "$hub" or some such, instead of a link to a page, the text "progress-dependent" (or equivalent) is generated. I'll try out this idea by creating a new {{Hub Nav}} template which is an edited version of {{Footer Nav}}, and testing that.

This problem is why (with the exception of Town and New Front Base, on the latter of which I used the standard footer although it's not totally applicable) I have so far only imported levels where the progression is strictly linear. — RobertATfm (talk) 16:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it looks as if the existing template can be used the way I envisage already, by using "prevname" and "nextname" (unless those require the others to work). — RobertATfm (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

The FN template is actually pretty flexible. Check out the Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas guide for some more advanced usage. -- Prod (talk) 23:47, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

All of our walkthroughs are linear. If you haven't written Strife's to be linear yet, then you haven't expanded it enough. We often have walkthroughs that return to old areas. These are often included as sub-sections of a particular page where it is relevant. If an area is wholly explored again, sometimes we have a new page that says (revisited) or something in the title to indicate this second time returning to the location. See Chrono Trigger/Table of Contents for some visit notation. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 16:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with the assertion that all of our walkthroughs are necessarily linear. They may be arranged linearly because that is the format which suites the site best, but the walkthroughs themselves need not necessarily be linear. You can direct a reader to another page in the middle of one page, with the notion that they will return to that page eventually (or perhaps not). I know I've done that in the Metal Gear walkthroughs because they are arranged by location, not by progression. Pro cyon 19:46, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I have seen some alternative walkthrough description methods that stray from the traditional "describe everything in narrative prose". I do like guides like The Legend of Zelda where the dungeons are split up and the walkthrough points out key points as the player goes through the areas. The best way to do a hub-style ToC per page would be to just make a little section like "Next areas to explore" and then use a bulleted list of the other pages to go to. The footer nav prev/next page links would be less important then, but could act with a secondary function of just pointing alphabetically to the next page, or in Strife's case, to the next map number in the sequence. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 00:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Map for an arcade game

I am planning to make a walkthrough for a platform adventure game. Such actions can't be described verbally ("go there to take the key, then jump all the way up to use it on the door and take the bomb, then go to the enemy on the left and kill it with the bomb...") I plan to use schematics and maps with legends. I have found the game's gamemaps from an abime site, which are extracted from the game files, and could serve as a schematic of eg. where each item can be found, and which route the player must follow. My concern is that these pictures have a "Lemon Amiga" watermark which means that they are not intended to be used anywhere else. What do you say? Keyan (talk) 07:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Watermarked images are not permitted. Removing the watermark without the author's consent is also not acceptable (on copyrighted material this action voids fair use). You will need to get permission to modify the image before uploading it here, unfortunately. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 16:37, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

What I thought. However I guess it will be acceptable to use these rips as guides to make my own sketchy maps and upload them here. Keyan (talk) 17:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The gray area is to do some sort of trace over the map to get the general layout duplicated. Note that if elements of the map are simply screenshots or sprites, you can take them out of it for your own use, since those are not owned by the compiler of the map, but the owner of the game who is obligated to let us use them for non-commercial free use (though we would comply with take-down requests). Can you link to the source images as an example? --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 17:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd also like to know which game we're talking about. It's often possible to find alternate sources of maps without watermarks. It's just a question of knowing what to search for. Pro cyon 23:40, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Procyon: based on Keyan's recent edits, I think Keyan is referring to Simon the Sorcerer, Colonel's Bequest, or The Journeyman Project: Pegasus Prime (or others in the series). --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 05:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Haha, nope, as I said in my first post, I was referring to arcade games. For example look at the gamemaps of the game Ork. If one could mark it with items, hotspots, and draw a route to follow, it would make an ideal walkthrough. However there is the watermark. Keyan (talk) 07:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Umm, that's not an arcade game, that's an Amiga (and Atari ST) game... Did I miss something? o_O; Anyway, that's awful, I hate when sites do that just to piss all over the image. There are definitely ways to get around this. I don't want to make a habit of this, but I will help you with this one. Give me some time. Pro cyon 13:36, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I created Ork to get you started. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 17:30, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

@Procyon: Sorry, sometimes I say "arcade" to refer to the genre, interchangeably with "platformer". Of course, the game did not originate in the Arcades. I'll be looking forward for your help. Notify me in my talk page when you are ready. Keyan (talk) 06:18, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Re: arcade: got it, I understand now. I already did post on your talk page. Did you not receive the notification? The first three maps are done, still need to find time to finish the last two, possibly tomorrow night. Pro cyon 21:54, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Cross-Origin Resource Sharing

NOTE: This is a question regarding SW server operation, not about any particular game.

Recently, my browser has stopped showing SW in the fonts you normally specify. An inspection of the Web Console reveals that the resources are being rejected by the browser because they are cross-origin. Because of the security issue, it will only allow the resource if they come from the same domain or if the resource is allowed under Cross-Origin Resource Sharing (CORS), which is a server-side implementation.

Has something happened recently at SW to start tripping these errors and is anything needed to correct this?—WhosAsking (talk) 17:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Are you seeing the same thing as this bug previously discussed? By "my browser" what browser/version are you talking about? It is likely a server side issue if you are seeing a cross-origin warning, which is interestingly more technically specific than any hints we have uncovered so far. That may prompt Prod to look into it further. --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 18:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

No. I'm using the latest Firefox on Windows 7. I see text just fine. However, most of the text is not in the font you designate. This is particularly the case for the symbols you use, which appear to rely on a custom font. Since it is not being loaded, I'm seeing Unicode placeholder characters (hollow box with numbers like F002, F067, F068, etc.) in place of a magnifying glass and your bullet points.—WhosAsking (talk) 18:50, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

This is strictly an issue with Firefox that we've already identified. Firefox has tighter security when it comes to this matter than, say, Chrome. As of the time I am writing this, I notice that the problem has been resolved in my Firefox browser. Please let us know if it continues to be a problem in yours. Thanks. Pro cyon 23:40, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

You're exactly right, it was a CORS config change that was missed. We had to change the paths where the skins are stored due to a new way of mediawiki loading skins. We missed updating the CORS headers for the new path and only fixed it afterwards. The issue should be resolved now, it's just very hard to clear Firefox's cache for this issue. -- Prod (talk) 04:30, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Puzzle guide section (Tetris Attack)

Alright, so I'm going to at least work on the puzzle mode of Tetris Attack, as it very likely would be the most frequently searched for part of the game. Info so you don't need to play it - basically you're given a set of blocks and a certain number of moves to get rid of all of them. There are 120 of these in the game, with 60 initial puzzles and 60 unlocked with a code given once you've solved the original 60.

Now, potentially what I would do is show a screenshot of the puzzle, give a hint (possibly hidden), and give the solution under a hide tag. Personally if solving the puzzles, I would love to be able to see simply hints to just help me arrive at the solution myself, rather than just being given the solution. Is this okay, or are we simply interested in giving the solution? (I haven't been able to find other similar examples that I am familiar with that are on this site in a significant way) Also, am I allowed to give screenshots for all 120 puzzles? I was reading the copyright guide page about how guides aren't substitutes for games, but in this case, the unsolved screenshot is technically all you need to have and solve the puzzle (although there are some timing things that would be tough to remember and catch onto without the game). It's obviously more entertaining and easier to visualize when things actually happen when you make a move, and there is much more to the game than the puzzle mode, but I thought I'd double check.

If you want, I can post some puzzles/hints/solutions in the guide so you have a better idea if my explaining doesn't work. -- Ceegers (talk) 02:57, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Short answer: There's nothing that you're suggesting that wouldn't be welcome here, so go for it.

Long answer: There's an old saying that I've always been fond of: Fish for a man, and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime. I've always tried to construct my guides around that principal. I'd rather teach the reader how the game works, then flat out tell them what to do, even though it's hard to avoid sometimes. I believe most readers want to understand how a game works rather than be told what buttons to press and when. And there's no limit to how many screenshots you can upload. As long as they're useful and help you illustrate the problem, load 'em up. Let us know if there's anything we can do to help. Pro cyon 03:48, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

You can probably use {{Spoiler}} to hide the solution unless the user wants to see it. By having the solution to the level, you do take away from the game a bit. But, that's true of any solution, in text, video, or screenshot. You should be fine to go ahead with it, we'll just have to take it down if anyone complains. -- Prod (talk) 04:34, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Ceegers: start the section with the guide, then put a sub-header for the "quick solution" or something similar. Using {{spoiler}}, then, is not necessary. So, you have some choices and it will come down to your preference. Do your best! --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 05:03, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

MobileFrontend

When MobileFrontend was initially enabled, there were a number of issues that we were working through. The latest version has now been deployed, so please test it out again and let me know if you notice any issues. -- Prod (talk) 03:25, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Customized sidebar

I don't remember who had asked about this before, so hopefully they see it here. The contents of the sidebar for pages without an autotoc can be customized through MediaWiki:Autotoc-default. -- Prod (talk) 03:45, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Prof. Oak's 5 Pokeballs

In Pokemon Yellow, if you defeat the rival without purchasing any poke balls or catching any pokemons, you get 5 free poke balls from Prof. Oak just as in Red or Blue. However, by the time the starter pokemon is leveled enough to do so, it's too strong to do any minor damage to catch any pokemon on route 22. Also, to be able to catch the low level pokemon on the route, the starter pokemon has to be at a low level to do any damage without defeating it.

So, therein lies the problem; either purchase poke balls, catch them on route 22 forgoing the 5 free balls from the Prof. or level the starter pokemon to 8 or 9 and either forgoing catching them or fight them for experience.